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I'm in agreement with Mondo, and I play Guard too!

Wasn' there a whole thread on Stubborn and Weaken Resolve? My take from it is that Stubborn ignores negative modifiers to a Morale Test, but because WR changes the leadership, you roll against the lower value...

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:How is a "actual, albeit temporary, change to the models statline" not a modifier?

Ok.lt's try this again. WR modifies/lowers/"whetever term you want to use" the target unit's LD. It does not modify or give minuses to LD based checks.

RoB lets you "use" Sic's LD instead of your unit's LD, when you take a morale check.

The targeted unit's LD is lowered by WR; however, Sic's is unchanged.

The unit can elect "use" Sic's LD10 instead of their own, now "weakend", LD.

There in nothing in WR's rules that even remotely suggest that it effects the usage of another unit's LD, through RoB.

Could a Moderator please correct the mis-spelling in the title of this thread?

You don't need a mod. Just edit your OP and change the title.

Mahu wrote:It's been a long time, but here is my logical argument:

P1: Weaken Resolve lowers the Leadership of the target unit
P2: A unit may use another model's leadership
C: Though Weaken Resolve lowers the leadership of the unit, it doesn't affect the leadership the unit is testing on

The argument that weaken resolve is a modifier doesn't make since as none is implied. Weaken resolve changes the leadership characteristic on the unit for a period of time, but rities of battle presents the option for a unit to use another models leadership. Now if weaken resolved is used against Sicarus, that is a different story.

I have to agree with this arguement. If WR was stated something like 'target units suffer a penalty to all leadership tests...', I would feel different. But, based on the relevant quotes, I think it's OK to use Sic's Ld 10. Man, I may have to start an UM army.

So then you are saying that if Sic is on the table I can use LD 10 regardless of any and all modifiers/rules that affect LD?

What about if Sic's LD has been reduced to 7 cause of Pariahs, does that mean your whole army suddenly becomes LD 7?

So then you are saying that if Sic is on the table I can use LD 10 regardless of any and all modifiers/rules that affect LD?

For the most part, and I haven't examined every rule interaction, I would say yes. It all depends on how it is worded. Sic's rules clearly state that a model or unit may test on his leadership. So in every case of the units leadership being reduced, then they can "opt out" of their own leadership and use Sic's instead.

Now if a rule is pretty clear that no matter where the leadership stat is coming from they are still receiving certain modifiers, then that would be a different issue.

But Weaken Resolve specifically says the unit leaderships is reduced. Now if it said something to the effect that "for any morale, leadership, and pinning tests that the unit has to take are reduced by the number of psykers, etc." then that would be different.

I guess the difference I am trying to explain here, is that there is a difference between modifying the units stat and modifying the test taken.

What about if Sic's LD has been reduced to 7 cause of Pariahs, does that mean your whole army suddenly becomes LD 7?

Rities of Battle is optional. This is important, especially with combat tactics. But an IG player can easily WR Sic's unit and then WR the target unit and get around all of this.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:So then you are saying that if Sic is on the table I can use LD 10 regardless of any and all modifiers/rules that affect LD?

What about if Sic's LD has been reduced to 7 cause of Pariahs, does that mean your whole army suddenly becomes LD 7?

Yes, if Sic is on the table your entire army can CHOOSE to use his LD. If the modifiers are only to LD stats, then RoB keeps them at a full LD10; however, if you are taking modifiers LD based checks, then you would take them at 10 minus whatever modifier the check requires, such as penalties for losing combat.

In scenario you are presenting, however, you are forgetting the part where it says that units CAN use Sic's LD...not that they MUST. Everyone would still use their own LD. Of course, if a unit wanted to, they could to use Sic's LD7 from Pariahs...which would be stupid.

Basically, if you want to drop the leadership of units in a army that contains Sic (or any captain with RoB) you must also drop the LD of the HQ.

So you're saying Sic is better than stubborn. If you lose combat by 8 wounds, are you still testing on Ld10? I would disagree with this.

kadun wrote:So you're saying Sic is better than stubborn. If you lose combat by 8 wounds, are you still testing on Ld10? I would disagree with this.

That is exactly what they are saying. It's utter Rubbish.

KeithGatchalian wrote:Wasn' there a whole thread on Stubborn and Weaken Resolve? My take from it is that Stubborn ignores negative modifiers to a Morale Test, but because WR changes the leadership, you roll against the lower value...

Yeah this just blows my mind.

So I follow the thread on stubborn versus weaken resolve, disagreeing the whole way, but accepting the consensus. Even though there are specific values labeled "modifiers" in the main rulebook, the gestalt chose to consider a base change to the value of leadership a 'modifier'. i was all set to accept that and move on.

But now the consensus is that "using someone else's leadership value" equates to 'making that leadership value your leadership value'?

Sicarius has leadership 10. until he gets hit with Weaken resolve, his leadership is 10.

If I want to use SICARIUS' leadership for my next test, because mine has been knocked down to 2. I'm using HIS leadership, my own leadership is not becoming 10.

I don't even know where the ork mob rule versus weaken resolve discussion ended up, and I'm not really interested at this point. I haven't agreed with anything in the consensus so far, and I'm very comfortable with my own interpretations. I'm just going to walk away from this discussion.

My purpose for posting this however, is just to let other people reading the thread know. If you aren't agreeing with anything so far, don't worry, you aren't crazy... or alone.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:You don't need a mod. Just edit your OP and change the title.

Thanks. Done.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

kadun wrote:So you're saying Sic is better than stubborn. If you lose combat by 8 wounds, are you still testing on Ld10? I would disagree with this.

That is exactly what they are saying. It's utter Rubbish.

No, thats not what they are saying.

They are saying that losing close combat confers a modifier to the following Break Test. A modifier to the test itself. Not a modifier to the stat as such.
They still use Sicarius' leadership of 10, but when taking the test the modifiers are applied to the dice roll and not the stat.
(I dont even know if this is true. Are the modifiers from a lost CC a modifier to the test or the stat?)

When being effected by Weaken Resolve the leadership stat itself is modified, not any subsequent tests.
Therefore their leadership would indeed be reduced, but come test-time, the unit in question takes the test on Sicarius' Leadership (which isnt effected by Weaken Resolve).


One modifies the test, the other modifies the stat. That I believe is the distinction being made.


(Note, I might not agree with that interpretation. But I believe I have at least understood the case being presented.)

Mahu wrote:I disagree with Yakface on this.

PG. 47 of the IG Codex:

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power (to a minimum of 2)."

PG. 85 of the SM Codex:

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."

It's been a long time, but here is my logical argument:

P1: Weaken Resolve lowers the Leadership of the target unit
P2: A unit may use another model's leadership
C: Though Weaken Resolve lowers the leadership of the unit, it doesn't affect the leadership the unit is testing on

The argument that weaken resolve is a modifier doesn't make since as none is implied. Weaken resolve changes the leadership characteristic on the unit for a period of time, but rities of battle presents the option for a unit to use another models leadership. Now if weaken resolved is used against Sicarus, that is a different story.

Your argument is incomplete because it fails to show in the rules how Ld is tested upon when taking a Morale test, which is where I think you are ultimately incorrect.

Units have a "Leadership Value" which is what Morale Checks are made against(pg 43). What constitutes a units Ld value is normally the highest Ld value of the models in the unit. However, Sicarus allows Space Marine units to USE his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

It is very important to note that Sicarus's ability does not REPLACE the "unit's Ld value". The only thing Sicarus does is to allow the unit to *use* his Ld value, which is Ld10. So the unit's 'Ld value' for the morale or pinning check is then Ld10.

Now, the Weaken Resolve power does NOT JUST say it only reduces the "models" Ld values in the unit it is affecting. It says "For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers. . ."

So as a blanket statement it lowers the "unit's Leadership" for the rest of the turn. Does this mean the models in the unit have their Leadership values lowered? Yep, because they are part of the unit. But it also means it affects the unit's "Leadership value" as a whole as well because it doesn't say it just applies to the individual model's Ld values.

So when the unit takes a morale check, they use Sicarus's Ld10 to make the unit's Ld value 10 for the test. However, for the rest of the turn the unit is affected by Weaken Resolve and therefore the unit's Ld value is reduced before taking the test.


Something important to note is that if you don't accept that Sicarus's Ld becomes the "unit's Ld value" then you also have to accept that *any* morale check modifiers (such as the modifiers for losing combat) would not then affect that test as well. This is because the rules for Morale Check modifiers (pg 43) state: "This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can reduce the unit's Leadership value by -1, -2 or sometimes even more."

So if you are (incorrectly, IMO) saying that Sicarus's Ld is somehow used outside of the 'unit's Ld value' (which really isn't possible because all the rules for morale checks are written using the "unit's Ld value") then you also have to accept that all Ld modifiers of any sort would not apply as well.

I still disagree.

There is a distinct difference in what is being used here. There is a difference between the "unit's" leadership value and the value the unit is testing on.

What you are implying is that when a unit uses another model/units leadership value then the new leadership value retroactively becomes the units, which no implication exists in the rules.

It's like this, I have a tractor and you have a tractor. Something happens to the tractor that I own. Because I would use your tractor doesn't make that tractor mine.

So if you are (incorrectly, IMO) saying that Sicarus's Ld is somehow used outside of the 'unit's Ld value' (which really isn't possible because all the rules for morale checks are written using the "unit's Ld value") then you also have to accept that all Ld modifiers of any sort would not apply as well.

This is exactly what I am saying. You would have to prove that when a unit uses another units leadership then that value becomes the unit's leadership value, and I don't see that in the rites of battle rules.

Mahu wrote:

So if you are (incorrectly, IMO) saying that Sicarus's Ld is somehow used outside of the 'unit's Ld value' (which really isn't possible because all the rules for morale checks are written using the "unit's Ld value") then you also have to accept that all Ld modifiers of any sort would not apply as well.

This is exactly what I am saying. You would have to prove that when a unit uses another units leadership then that value becomes the unit's leadership value, and I don't see that in the rites of battle rules.

So your position is that Rites of Battle is better than stubborn, i.e. ignoring modifiers due to losing combat, ordanance barrage pinning checks, weaken resolve, etc?

I disagree for the reasons Yakface cited.

So instead of modifying LD9 its modifying Ld10.

Cope.

shrug

This talk of allowing space marines leadership to be substituted for Sic's leadership seems to be thought of wrongly.

-The term 'Leadership' refers to the number below the Ld colum in a units profile, therefor the addition of the term value is redundant.

-The marines are still making the test. Nothing changes that. They are not allowing thier test to be made by som-thing else. It is still that unit with all previous effects and statuses.

-That test can only be made once & the choice to use Sic's leadership (i.e The No.10, which replaces the marines Leadership of numbers 8 or 9) is made in response to needing to take a test. Deciding to use Sic's leadership (the No.10) doesnt replace anything other than the previous number under the Ld colum


Read the above three points before replying, if you please.

I admit it will never be played the way I am argueing, and I even played a Sicarius List versus Weaken Resolve on Saturday, and I conceded to the majority opinion.

But my argument is basically an English language one. It's all about possessives.

The "unit's" leadership is a stat line owned by that unit.

Sicarius's Leadership is a stat line owned by the Sicarius Model.

They are two different things. And the rules for rites of battle do not indicate a transfer of possession.

-The term 'Leadership' refers to the number below the Ld colum in a units profile, therefor the addition of the term value is redundant.

Not necessarily. "Leadership" refers to the portion of the stat line. "Value" refers to the number presented in that column, though I don't see how this applies as neither rule refers to the value.

-The marines are still making the test. Nothing changes that. They are not allowing thier test to be made by som-thing else. It is still that unit with all previous effects and statuses.

Yes, the Marines are making the test, but that doesn't make Sicarius' Leadership their Leadership. Like I said there is no transfer of possession with use., unless you think everything you use instantly become yours when you use it.

-That test can only be made once & the choice to use Sic's leadership (i.e The No.10, which replaces the marines Leadership of numbers 8 or 9) is made in response to needing to take a test. Deciding to use Sic's leadership (the No.10) doesnt replace anything other than the previous number under the Ld colum

Read the rules again. There is no replacement inferred.

The unit is simply "opting out" of using their Leadership to use the Leadership of another model for the test.

The rules don't say that the Unit's leadership becomes 10. It doesn't say that you use Sicarius' Leadership as your own. Two ways they could have easily worded it to avoid this situation.

No, it simply says that the unit may use his leadership for the test.

His Leadership doesn't change because the unit's has changed.

Yak I disagree with you. I know you don't like Space Marines and to be honest I think you are a bit biased here. It has been repeatedly pointed out that the unit is using Sicarius' leadership value not their own but you are insisting that for some reason it becomes their own. Only if Sicarius was targeted would you subtract from his leadership of 10.

G

Once again, RaW is difficult to interpret, but anyone trying to use the unmodified LD10 in this situation would be an asshat, and I'd not bother to play them again.

Weakened Resolve would modify the unit itself leadership. HOWEVER! The captain isn't IN THE UNIT, so they may still borrow his unmodified leadership due to him not being in the unit.

I think the only argument here is that if Weaken Resolve is used against Sicarius, does that negative modifier affect his combat tactics, aka. affect everyone who wishes to use his Leadership. And also in this case, I would say that his borrowed leadership also gets lowered.

Fifty wrote:Once again, RaW is difficult to interpret, but anyone trying to use the unmodified LD10 in this situation would be an asshat, and I'd not bother to play them again.

Why would they be an asshat? If your opponent has the Book of Saint Lucius in the witch hunters codex, is he being an asshat for using an item that gives him unmodified leadership 9?

Honestly, lets put it into real life terms.


Marine Squad: "O NOES! I am weakened by the psychic attack!" *Sicarius isn't going to go: "O NO! Somehow my leadership is somehow affected due to this squad being scared!" *uhhh no

- Even though "real life" warhammer situations aren't that accurate, its just plain dumb to think that someone elses leadership is effected by a unit that got scared. Say someone got shot at and ducked to the ground. Would the commander at the back of the force go O MY GOD THAT GUY IS BEING SHOT AT NOW I AM SCARED! No, thats not his own life, why should he be scared? He would give that guy inspiration to "go on" because he didn't almost die.

And since the psychic attack states that it lowers the targets leadership, how does it affect the borrowed leadership? It isn't the targets leadership in the first place! Its kinda like that BosL or the Vox Caster unit, they arn't using their OWN leadership which the psychic attack effects!

EzeKK wrote:Weakened Resolve would modify the unit itself leadership. HOWEVER! The captain isn't IN THE UNIT, so they may still borrow his unmodified leadership due to him not being in the unit.

I think the only argument here is that if Weaken Resolve is used against Sicarius, does that negative modifier affect his combat tactics, aka. affect everyone who wishes to use his Leadership. And also in this case, I would say that his borrowed leadership also gets lowered.

Rities of Battle is optional.

I think this can be even further explained with the difference to "Leadership modifiers to Morale checks" and an ability which just changes a units LD value to a certain number.

What I mean to say is Rites of Battle is only used when making a Morale Check or Pinning Check correct?

The modifier would indeed affect a unit under Rites of Battle as it does replace the unit's LD value. So a lost assault would cause a Unit to be at 10 - x for testing.

But, for any ability that *just* changes the LD value of the unit in question without a morale check is indeed different. As that new value would temporarily replace the original.

Now, with that unit (and its new lower LD value) has to make a morale check, you will note that this is not a "LD modifier to the Morale check" as quoted earlier, but a LD that has already been modified. In such a case the unit 'borrows' the Captain's LD value and now has a brand new (higher) LD value to use against the Morale check in question plus any modifiers to *that* morale check. But the unit does not keep the Captain's new LD, and may only use it when making morale/pinning checks. And so once the morale check is done, would then revert back to the lowered version.

My question is this (I don't own the new guard codex yet). Is Weaken resolve a flat modifier to a LD value with no morale test, or is it a morale test with a LD modifier?

The distinction is important with Rites of Battle.

WR is just a flat modifier to LD...not to LD tests....and that is my whole point as to why RoB will counter it.

Again...
1.WR lowers target units LD for the remainder of the turn
2. Target unit is fired upon, loses 25%, and is forced to make a morale check.
3.The target unit now chooses to use Sic's LD 10, instead of their lowered LD.
4. The target unit's test is made on Sic's LD10

RoB does not say that it "replaces" a units LD, so please everyone stop trying to say that it does.

RoB says that a units "can use" Sic's LD, instead of their own, for Morale and Pinning tests.

WR does not say that it imposes a penalty to Morale checks, so the test would be made at Sic's LD 10, without penalty.

Therefore, the only way to beat RoB with WR, is to hit Sic with WR, thus lowering his LD.

Also, for those that are trying to say that I (an others) think you would take all tests with LD10, without penalty, you are wrong. I have said repeatedly that if their are penalties for the test itself (such as losing CC), then the test would be made at 10 minus all penalties. Unfortunately for WR, it only lowers the LD of a unit, rather than giving penalites to all tests the unit takes. Thanks to RoB, a unit never has to test on their own LD, so WR has no effect until WR is cast on Sicarius.

padixon wrote:

My question is this (I don't own the new guard codex yet). Is Weaken resolve a flat modifier to a LD value with no morale test, or is it a morale test with a LD modifier?

The distinction is important with Rites of Battle.

It is a flat modifier to leadership value, it doesn't cause a moral check for all I know. So it reduces their leadership value by X amount for the whole turn (maybe the rest of the game?)

And heres an amazing tip (Thanks to Stelek!). Take an inquisitor. Then take a Callidus assassin with the neuro shredder. Use Psycher Battle Squads to lower the units leadership to 2. Then, tank shock them into flamer formation and hit them with the callidus assassin. Since the Neural Shredder has STR8, it automatically hits due to it being a flamer, and wounds on a 2+ and causes ID because the units Leadership is counted as its toughness. It also ignores cover saves since it acts as a flame weapon. This will basically make Nob Bikerz cry. The weapon Ignores FNP and auto-kills everything it wounds (that fails its invuln save). Then, the squad is sure to run, its leadership 2!!! Then proceed to follow the nob bikers with something like a rhino till they run off the board.

Say it hits 6 Nob Bikers. 5 will wound and 4.17 will die if they have Cybork, thats below half strength. Bye bye!

Here are the rules again. as people seem to be forgetting:

PG. 47 of the IG Codex:

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power (to a minimum of 2)."

PG. 85 of the SM Codex:

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."

Your argument is incomplete because it fails to show in the rules how Ld is tested upon when taking a Morale test, which is where I think you are ultimately incorrect.

PG. 43

"Morale represents the grit, determination, or (sometimes) plain stupidity of warriors in action. Like all other Leadership-based tests, Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit’s Leadership value. If the score is equal to or under the unit’s Leadership value, the test is passed and the unit does not suffer any ill effects – their nerve has held. However, if the score rolled is higher, then the test is failed and the unit will immediately fall back, as described over the page."

So per normal, you take the unit's leadership and roll the dice.

Units have a "Leadership Value" which is what Morale Checks are made against(pg 43). What constitutes a units Ld value is normally the highest Ld value of the models in the unit. However, Sicarus allows Space Marine units to USE his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

That is correct.

It is very important to note that Sicarus's ability does not REPLACE the "unit's Ld value". The only thing Sicarus does is to allow the unit to *use* his Ld value, which is Ld10. So the unit's 'Ld value' for the morale or pinning check is then Ld10.

The Unit's Leadership hasn't changed from their Stat line, they are using another value for the test. If Sicarius' ability was a REPLACEMENT then we would be having a different argument.

Now, the Weaken Resolve power does NOT JUST say it only reduces the "models" Ld values in the unit it is affecting. It says "For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers. . ."

Yes, the Leadership for the UNIT is reduced.

So as a blanket statement it lowers the "unit's Leadership" for the rest of the turn. Does this mean the models in the unit have their Leadership values lowered? Yep, because they are part of the unit. But it also means it affects the unit's "Leadership value" as a whole as well because it doesn't say it just applies to the individual model's Ld values.

Again, nobody is contesting that. The Leadership value for the UNIT is reduced.

So when the unit takes a morale check, they use Sicarus's Ld10 to make the unit's Ld value 10 for the test. However, for the rest of the turn the unit is affected by Weaken Resolve and therefore the unit's Ld value is reduced before taking the test.

This is where the argument falls apart and this is where I am questioning you on.

Here is the rule again:

PG. 85 of the SM Codex:

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."

Regardless of the UNIT'S Leadership value they are taking the TEST on Sicarius' LEADERSHIP.

Something important to note is that if you don't accept that Sicarus's Ld becomes the "unit's Ld value" then you also have to accept that *any* morale check modifiers (such as the modifiers for losing combat) would not then affect that test as well. This is because the rules for Morale Check modifiers (pg 43) state: "This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can reduce the unit's Leadership value by -1, -2 or sometimes even more."

Let's examine those rules then:

PG 44

"A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take Morale checks for taking 25% casualties."

"Units that are overrun by an enemy tank may wisely decide it’s time to abandon their position and fall back. If a tank reaches an enemy unit’s position then the unit must take a Morale check to see whether or not it falls back. For a more complete explanation of how tank shock works, see the Vehicle rules on page 68."

"Units taking this Morale Check suffer a -1 Ld modifier for each wound their side has lost the combat by."

Furthermore:

"This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can reduce the unit’s Leadership value by -1, -2 or sometimes even more."

So every rule tells you when to take a Morale test and in the case of modifiers in an assault, the modifier is to the TEST.

So if you are (incorrectly, IMO) saying that Sicarus's Ld is somehow used outside of the 'unit's Ld value' (which really isn't possible because all the rules for morale checks are written using the "unit's Ld value") then you also have to accept that all Ld modifiers of any sort would not apply as well.

Correct, Morale Tests are taken using the Units Leadership Value. Rities of Battle allows the Unit to use a Leadership Value that isn't their own.

One more time:

PG. 47 of the IG Codex:

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power (to a minimum of 2)."

PG. 85 of the SM Codex:

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."

There is a difference between the Leadership VALUE and the Morale TEST.

Weaken Resolve affects the Unit's Leadership VALUE.

Rities of Battle allows the Unit to TEST on a Leadership VALUE that is not their Leadership VALUE.

It is not that new of a tactic and can be done without PSB.

G