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I concede that you might be right, the wording is poor and i think the consequence was unintended. It should get some kind of FAQ.

The effect is that, units outside of Sic, have tougher LD then Sic himself does. His can be modified, in effect theirs cannot be without first modifying Sic's.


Edit::
Same for Commissar Lords, possibly worse, as the Commie Lord states his LD value of "10". So if were going to go there, they always use 10? WR does not change the text.

schrag wrote:I concede that you might be right, the wording is poor and i think the consequence was unintended. It should get some kind of FAQ.

The effect is that, units outside of Sic, have tougher LD then Sic himself does. His can be modified, in effect theirs cannot be without first modifying Sic's.

Yes..that is what I have been saying for pages

Whether it was intended to work that way or not, the RAW of RoB directly counters WR...it all comes down to that pesky little word "use".

So Sicarius is a lot like stubborn, ignoring all negatives from ordnance, losing an assault, etc. at a guaranteed Ld10?

No. It only works for things like WR and Pariahs.

Penalties for Ordnance Barrage and losing CC happen as you take the test, so it doesn't matter whose LD a unit is "using". Those penalties will apply to LD used for that test as it happens, they will just now be penalties to LD 10, instead of the LD of the unit.

It is a matter of timing. RoB gets around anything that lowers a units LD "before" it is forced to make a morale/pinning check, as the unit can opt out of "using" their LD when the time for a test comes around. If a a penalty applies "as" you take a test, it won't matter whose LD the unit is "using", those penalties will aplly to the LD used for the test.

This means that the wording for RoB was very well thought out, and GW intended for it to work specifically against thing slike WR and Pariahs (as well as a general LD boost to the army), or the wording for RoB was very poorly thought out and leads to some unintended consequences.

See now were back to disagreeing, why does a LD modifier work and not WR? :p

If the units LD changes to Sic's WR works on the new LD. If their LD DOES NOT change, then no LD modifier will work.

barrge modifiers change the units LD, just like WR does.

Alerian wrote:
It is a matter of timing. RoB gets around anything that lowers a units LD "before" it is forced to make a morale/pinning check, as the unit can opt out of "using" their LD when the time for a test comes around. If a a penalty applies "as" you take a test, it won't matter whose LD the unit is "using", those penalties will aplly to the LD used for the test.

That is why

P1: "WR lowered your unit's LD earlier this turn, and now you have to take a morale test!"
P2: "That's OK. I'll use Sic's LD and test on his 10, since you only lowered the target unit's LD, and not Sic's!"
P1: "wow..that's sucks"

vs.

P1: "You lost combat by 3, so that will be a negative 3 LD when you test"
P2: "That's ok, I'll use Sic's LD 10"
P1: "Go ahead and use his LD10, bust since the penalty applies as you take the test, you will be taking it at 7 (10-3)"
P2; "wow..that sucks"

Alerian wrote:

Alerian wrote:
It is a matter of timing. RoB gets around anything that lowers a units LD "before" it is forced to make a morale/pinning check, as the unit can opt out of "using" their LD when the time for a test comes around. If a a penalty applies "as" you take a test, it won't matter whose LD the unit is "using", those penalties will aplly to the LD used for the test.

That is why

P1: "WR lowered your unit's LD, an now you have to take a morale test!"
P2: "That's OK. I'll use Sic's LD and test on his 10, since you only lowered the target unit's LD, and not Sic's!"
P1: "wow..that's sucks"

vs.

P1: "You lost combat by 3, so that will be a negative 3 LD when you test"
P2: "That's ok, I'll use Sic's LD 10"
P1: "Go ahead and use his LD10, bust since the penalty applies as you take the test, you will be taking it at 7 (10-3)"
P2; "wow..that sucks"

"Certain circumstances can make morale checks harder for a unit to pass. This is represented by applying leadership modifiers to morale checks which can reduce the units Leadership value by -1, -2 or sometimes even more."

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy units leadership is reduced by the number of sanctioned psykers..."

My point being they both effect LD in the same way, one applies just during a test, the other is for the entire turn. So its all or nothing.

Hehe.. I think you are right on that one.

Sicarius is as good as Stubborn. it does appear that you can always opt out of the penalties to a unit's LD and just "use" his 10. That get's even scarier if you keep Sicarius in a LR the whole game, so that he cannot be targeted.

This means that killing Sicarius should be of the highest priority when facing him.

To further the point, we can use the Commissar Lord as an example to possible intent, as he is the newest written rules.

He would have the same effect on units within 6in as Sic if we take your interpretation (which is quite valid).

Effectively giving then stubborn as well, but not to a unit he might be with EXCEPT he DOES give them stubborn from a separate rule.

Effectively making his unit and EVERY unit within 6 in stubborn with LD 10. Is this his actual intent? Why not a stubborn aura? I think this is too tricky of a rules collision for a GW rulebook, and more likely just bad wording. The more likely intent was to have his unit be Stubborn LD 10 and everyone within 6in to simply be LD 10.

By your "RaW" space marines never suffer negative modifiers to Ld Ever while Sicarius is on the table

Yeah, i think by "use" it has to mean "becomes the units LD value, with all applicable modifiers"

That's my point. Good luck getting tournament judges to accept that RAW. The connections are way too tenuous to just claim all the benefits (but no drawbacks) of Stubborn.

Stubborn has Drawbacks?

Cool, my Dark Angels have RoB so no more modifiers for me!!

[/sarcasm]

Alerian wrote:RoB allows a unit to use a different LD stat..namely Sic's. Since you keep trying to quote about penalties to LD checks, show me where WR states that it gives such penalties to checks; otherwise, give it up.

Rites of Battle allows a unit of Space Marines to use Sicarius' Ld10 for Morale checks and Pinning tests. Morale checks and Pinning tests are Leadership tests.

Since a unit's Ld is whatever Ld it is using, whether it is the highest Ld present in the unit, the number of models in the unit, or the Ld of some other model such as Sicarius, Weaken Resolve lowers that Ld and hence gives a penalty to any Ld tests the unit makes during the duration of the effect.

Nurglitch,

Thats not as clean cut as it would seem. The term in question is "use". Do they "use" his value, or does his value become their value? Because the modifiers are specific to the units value, it does not effect Sic, and thus if you were to simply "use" his LD there are no mods.

schrag:

Well, that's the thing isn't it? The section of the rules on Leadership Tests states that a unit's Leadership is whatever Leadership characteristic they are using.

So yes, the keyword is "use" and that's the term that the Leadership Test rules employ to describe unit Ld.

I think that makes it clear that any modifiers to the unit's Ld are modifiers to whichever Ld they are using, and if they are using Sicarius' Ld10, then any modifiers incurred by the unit modify Ld10.

I guess the thing that I'm finding strange here is that the rules state that a unit's Ld is whatever Ld the unit is using to take Leadership Tests such as Morale checks and Pinning tests, yet people are somehow distinguishing between a unit's Ld and the Ld the unit is using, which is a distinction that the rules do not make.

See also: "Characters as Leaders", p.47, Rulebook, stating that units may use the Leadership of Independent Characters as the unit's Leadership, when the former joins the latter.

"So yes, the keyword is "use" and that's the term that the Leadership Test rules employ to describe unit Ld. "

Not true
from the book...

"Morale checks (also called morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the units leadership value..."

The test is taken from the units LD value. Sic overrides that and says to use his. Modifiers modify the units LD value per their wording in the rulebook. They do not modify Sic's, so when you "use" his are you using his? Or replacing the units with his?

[quote=Leadership Tests, P.8, Rulebook

Units take tests based on the highest LD in the unit, all models in said unit are effected by modifiers, but Sic is NOT part of the modified unit, thus his LD is unaffected by any modifiers.

It does not say "use his leadership as the units Leadership..."

It says "use his Leadership..."

That is my distinction, i think you are likely correct to the intent, but the RaW is definitely not supporting it.

The Weaken Resolve psychic power disagrees with you there, schrag. It says only that the enemy unit's Ld is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psyckers in the Psycker Battle Squad.

Since the rulebook indicates that the unit's Leadership is whichever Ld value it is using, and Rites of Battle, as you say, states that they use Sicarius' Leadership, the unit's Leadership is reduced according to Weaken Resolve.

I'm sorry, but I'm not discussing any kind of intent, I'm simply pointing out what the text says, and your distinction is simply not supported by the text. It seems that the text clearly states that use is possession where unit Leadership is concerned.

Why is the unit's Leadership Ld8? Because the unit is using Model A's Ld8, according to the rulebook.

Model "A" is still part of the unit. Sicarius is not and that is a difference.

The unit's leadership is just that, the unit's leadership, defined by the use of the highest leadership model in the unit. The use of the highest leadership in the unit, does not translate to any leadership being used becomes the unit's leadership.

Nurglitch wrote:
Since the rulebook indicates that the unit's Leadership is whichever Ld value it is using, and Rites of Battle, as you say, states that they use Sicarius' Leadership, the unit's Leadership is reduced according to Weaken Resolve.

Where does it say a units LD is the LD it is using? A units LD is the highest LD value of the models in the unit taken from their entry in the army list.

"...2D6 and comparing the total to the units leadership value..."

WR effects the UNITS LD
"...the enemy units leadership is reduced..."

Assault loss modifiers effects the UNITS LD
"modifiers to morale checks which can reduce the units Leadership value"

RoB says
"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."
No matter how many mods are on the other units Leadership, Sic's Leadership DOES NOT CHANGE. Thus if you use HIS leadership, its an unmodified 10.

That's a bit of reading into it there. It doesn't say his unmodified leadership, it just says his leadership.

So it really depends on which order things happen. Does the squad use his leadership then apply the modifiers or do the modifiers get applied and then get ignored in favor of his leadership. I'm inclined to believe the former (because of the lack of Easter eggs in the rules).

Ozymandias wrote:That's a bit of reading into it there. It doesn't say his unmodified leadership, it just says his leadership.

So it really depends on which order things happen. Does the squad use his leadership then apply the modifiers or do the modifiers get applied and then get ignored in favor of his leadership. I'm inclined to believe the former (because of the lack of Easter eggs in the rules).

Well, even by the order things happen, RoB would trump WR. The LD modifier from WR happens when the PBS casts it. Morale/pinning tests happen later, when the unit takes casualties/loses assault (which would be your second interpretation).

I was more referring to the combat modifiers not affecting Sic's LD. I am inclined to believe that WR does not affect a unit using RoB.

Mahu:

Except that membership in the squad is not a relevant difference where Rites of Battle is concerned since it makes no difference whether Sicarius has joined the squad using his Ld as its own, or not.

What is relevant is where the unit's Leadership comes from, since units do not have their own Leadership characteristic. When a model has the highest Leadership in a unit, that model's Leadership is used for Leadership tests. The keyword, as other posters have noted, is "use". A unit's Leadership is the Leadership it uses.

That means that references to a unit's Leadership in the Morale and Pinning rules are references to the Leadership the unit is using.

If a unit of Space Marines are using Sicarius' Ld10 for Morale and Pinning tests, then they are using L10 for Leadership tests, and the unit's Leadership for such tests is Ld10.

While it is true that Sicarius' Ld10 does not change, a unit affected by Weaken Resolve does have its Leadership reduced. Since it is using Sicarius' Ld10, the unit's Leadership is equal to 10 - (#Sanctioned Psyckers). Units whose Leadership is not reduced get to use Sicarius' full Ld10, if the unit whose Leadership is being reduced is not Sicarius himself or any unit he has joined.

So clearly I agree with you, that Sicarius' Leadership remains unchanged so long as his unit is not affected by Weaken Resolve. However, where we disagree, is where the Leadership of units using his Leadership as their own have that Leadership reduced by Weaken Resolve effects on them.

What is relevant, though, is how a unit's Ld is obtained. Units do not have a Leadership characteristic.

schrag:

It says that a unit's Leadership is the Leadership value it is using on p.8 of the rulebook, in the section entitled "Leadership Tests". I've underlined the keyword for you:

Leadership Tests, P.8, Rulebook wrote:If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value.

Likewise, it reiterates this on p.47 of the rulebook, in the section entitled "Characters as Leaders".

The section on p.8 also tells us which tests are Leadership Tests, which include Morale checks:

Leadership Tests, P.8, Rulebook wrote:Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

So how are Morale checks handled? The following excerpt from the section entitled "Morale Checks" on p.43 of the rulebook conforms to the established rules for Leadership Tests, which is good since the Leadership Test rules make reference to them, but I suggest the repetition is included for the usual reasons of emphasis and clarity.

Morale Checks, P.43, Rulebook wrote:Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value. If the score is equal to or under the unit's Leadership value, the test is passed and the unit does not suffer any ill effects,

Certainly it is a point of fact that the quoted excerpt of the Morale Check rules do not say that the total of 2D6 is compared to the "Leadership that the unit is using", but that's un-necessary since the Leadership Test rules have already established earlier on that a unit's Leadership is whatever Leadership it is using. It does not need to use the clumsy phrasing of the "Leadership that the unit is using" when it has already established a shorthand term of "unit's Leadership".

It is a fact that the Leadership Test rules say that if a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value. It does not say that the unit's Leadership is the highest Ld value in the unit. The Character As Leaders section emphasizes and clarifies this important point verbatim.

Sicarius' Rites of Battle rule, with its emphasis on the term 'use' conforms to the meaning of that term established in the rulebook by the Leadership Test rules.