IG Chimeras - Can't fire more than one than one heavy weapon, can't fire two special weapons.

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**Matt-ShadowLord**

We're about to have a tournament at which the organiser ( a very well-meaning, fair and friendly guy) wants to apply the following interpretations on use of Chimeras.

The rules are clear the intent is that only one weapon can actually fire from the fire point... I don't think that only Lasguns can be fired from a chimera’s passenger compartment. But given the ambiguity of the ruling I believe that the intent is that a squad in a chimera can use the hull mounted lasguns which are unique to a chimera in addition to firing the one weapon normally allowed under the main rules for transports.

I don’t believe that you can fire two special weapons from the hatch.

The main rulebook clearly states that the one passenger may fire from a fire point. The Chimera rules refer to five models because it is saying that for simplicity of game play you trace the 4 lasgun shots and whatever the passenger standing in the hatch is shooting from the top hatch. That is the "absolutely crystal clear rule" if you read the whole paragraph rather than taking one line out of context.

Whilst for the simplicity of game play a heavy weapons team is a single model this does not imply that a Mortar team of three weapons can fire out of the hatch, simply for the reasons above.

He is the tournament organiser and a good player so has the right to decide what rules are applied/changed, but since its the first 40k tournament with the new guard codex, it would be a pain to start incorrectly.
I'd like a crystal clear, clean cut, concise explaination for him of why more than two special weapons can fire from a hatch, and why 3 heavy weapons can fire from a stationary chimera.

**Dalinair**

Dont quite get what hes saying by "The Chimera rules refer to five models because it is saying that for simplicity of game play you trace the 4 lasgun shots and whatever the passenger standing in the hatch is shooting from the top hatch" as far as im concerned, 1 passenger may shoot from 1 fire point, the chimera has 5 fire points so you can shoot 5 guns from it, simple as that really. Due to it having fire points it can shoot heavy weapons out of them should you choose to.

Maybe its just how he's wording it but he's explanation makes no sense to me as to why you cant use all 5 fire points, if you couldnt whats the point in even mentioning them. Also it has nothing to do with the lascannon implacements, for a start there are 6 of those not 5 which rules that out for a start.

**dietrich**

If he wants to go through every Codex and make corrections, that's fine. Otherwise, he shouldn't select on one issue with one army. I think the problem with that approach is then the GK player will want the Heavy 4 Rending assault cannon, and the CSM player will want a better Land Raider, and Dark Angels want the new SM wargear, etc. It's a noble intent, but unless he wants to adjust rules and points for every army, it doesn't work well.

**Razerous**

*Reads his shiny new IG codex*

Fire Points: Five models can fire from the Chimera top hatch..

Okay. Nothing else after this section of the rule contradicts this section of the rule (its mearly a clarification to make this imagation requiring game easier to swallow) so therefor nothing needs correcting. Going any other way is simply wrong.

Its not hard to imagine mechenised infantry replacing stock-standard issue lasguns with unqiue squad specific special issue plasma or melta weaponary.

It is counter intuative to use parts of the ruling that try to clarify the rule as a whole as cause to modify the rule entirely.

**foil7102**

What a tool. I would just tell him to shut up and follow the actual rules as written. If there was supposed to be an exception, they would have written it. I am sure that nob bikers are not the intent of the game designers, either, but there you go.

**sourclams**

The Chimera has five fire points.

You can fire five weapons out of five fire points with restrictions on type and movement.

That's it.

As a prevoius poster said, if he's going to "fix" this, then I'd expect him to fix all the other continuity issues, like Sisters/Witch Hunter rhinos costing more than 35 points, and sergeants being unable to equip lasguns.

This decision by your TO does nothing but screw over one particular unit choice in one particular codex. It doesn't matter whether or not this is his intent, but it is the inevitable result of selective rules changing.

**jp400**

Id tell him to re-read the codex and stop looking at it through the bottom of a shot glass... cause thats the only way I can see him comming to that backwards conclusion.

**dietrich**

sourclams wrote:This decision by your TO does nothing but screw over one particular unit choice in one particular codex. It doesn't matter whether or not this is his intent, but it is the inevitable result of selective rules changing.

And it's not even the most abusive unit in the IG codex, let alone the game. If he was somehow modifying wound allocation so Nob Bikers weren't quite so borken, I could understand it easier. While having multiple weapons fire out of the top hatch of the Chimera doesn't really fit the model, or the established fluff for the vehicle either, that is RAW.

**schrag**

While he might be able to make a case that a HW team counts as 2 models for firing, since they count as two for transport capacity, i cannot see any other interpretation for the simply put, "Fire Points: Five models can fire from the Chimera top hatch." 5 models from the top hatch

**Webbe**

I wouldn't enter a tournament where the TO clearly do not understande the intent of the rules.

**schrag**

All shots are considered from the hatch, the hatch allows 5 models to fire, the main rules make no limit on what can be fired except the movement of the transport.

**ketsugami**

Even in the previous Guard codex, where the Chimera firing rules adhered more closely to the fluff, I think you could fire *two* models from the hatch...

**Aelyn**

Strange, I've got a few friends who have the exact same interpretation of the rules. They say that it says, right there in the rule, that in reality the fixed lasguns are being fired... therefore, at least some of the shots can only be from lasguns.

I tried emailing the rules guy to get confirmation that they're wrong, but nothing yet.

The most convincing argument I've seen so far is that nowhere in the rules does it say the Chimera actually has lasguns equipped... so how can the troops inside fire fixed lasguns if there aren't any there?

**Gwar!**

The part about the side lasguns is Fluff, nothing more. As pointed out, the rules state:

Fire Points: Five models can fire from the Chimera top hatch..

Done. End. Finito!

**jp400**

Yup.

OP, point that dude over to the forums here. DO NOT let him get away with this bad ruleing.

**Gwar!**

Then Kick him in the nuts.
When Asked why, tell him it's Gwar!'s Fault. That seems to work a lot

**chromedog**

Point 1:
If the TO made this ruling, then that is what rolls at this event. Either toe the line or vote with your feet and don't attend.

Point 2: Perhaps suggesting he RTFM and get a clue might help, but dodgy interpretations have never solely been the purview of independant TOs (GW has done it a lot at their own events.).

**H.B.M.C.**

I've always been of the opinion that a Tournament Organiser can do whatever they want. They could arbitrarily declare Multi-Lasers illegal and while you might feel annoyed about it, it's their tournament.

However, if they're attempting to justify their rule change by saying it's RAW or - worse - the 'intent' of the rule (when what they say so clearly contradicts the written rules), then it's time to call him to task.

**Gwar!**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I've always been of the opinion that a Tournament Organiser can do whatever they want. They could arbitrarily declare Multi-Lasers illegal and while you might feel annoyed about it, it's their tournament.

However, if they're attempting to justify their rule change by saying it's RAW or - worse - the 'intent' of the rule (when the intent so clearly contradicts the written rules), then it's time to call him to task.

QFT.

**yakface**

I concur that the tournament organizer is making a very poor ruling in this case. He is letting previous editions of the codex affect his judgment against what the rules actually say in the new codex.

The new codex allows five models to fire out of the Chimeras top hatch. The rest of the rule is an explanation saying that while in reality some of these shots are coming from the fixed lasguns, for simplicity in gameplay they've just gone ahead and allowed five models to fire their own weapons.

I would suggest he comes onto some online forums and runs some polls to get an idea about how most people think this rule should be played. I believe the overwhelming majority will side with what most everyone has expressed in this thread.

**The Defenestrator**

RAW:

Sourclams wrote:The Chimera has five fire points.

You can fire five weapons out of five fire points with restrictions on type and movement.

That's it.

seems pretty straightforward to me.

RAI

Razerous wrote:Its not hard to imagine mechenised infantry replacing stock-standard issue lasguns with unqiue squad specific special issue plasma or melta weaponary.

also pretty sensible. If you look at the actual model, the built-in lasguns look very similar to the ones you would see in the sides of WW2 bombers; with the leather or fabric cowling riveted to the hull, and then cinched tight around the barrel of the gun. Not particularly complicated to swap out, and makes sense fluff-wise.

**Homer S**

Gwar! wrote:The part about the side lasguns is Fluff, nothing more. As pointed out, the rules state:

Fire Points: Five models can fire from the Chimera top hatch..

Done. End. Finito!

Except that all of the text following the heading Fire Points are rules. You cannot say it is fluff because it is written as prose.

yakface wrote:
The new codex allows five models to fire out of the Chimeras top hatch. The rest of the rule is an explanation saying that while in reality some of these shots are coming from the fixed lasguns, for simplicity in gameplay they've just gone ahead and allowed five models to fire their own weapons.

The rule says 5 may fire but it does not say their own weapons. You added that part. It says 5 may fire, some are firing the side lasguns but measure from the hatch for simplicity.

Having said that, I think it will take an FAQ to sort our the RAI here. Strict RAW could be that any 5 models may fire their weapons or 1 or more may fire their own weapons and the rest fire lasguns. I would let at least 1 HW team fire. Having said that, if I'm playing an IG player that is actually moving something instead of just sitting and shooting the snot out of my Eldar, I'd say enjoy!

Homer

**skarousis**

While reading the chimera entry in the new IG codex, it says in the first paragraph "...an embarked Infantry Squad can utilise the hull-mounted firing points to unleash a lethal fusilade of shots into the foe..."

No where there does it state just lasguns.

In the rule section it says "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch. In reality, several are firing from the fixed lasgun emplacements along either flank, but for simplicity we assume all shots to be taken from the hatch."

Seems clear that because if an infantry squad is in the chimera at the most it could fire 3 special weapons (vets), so at least 2 would be lasguns. Hence why it says "in reality several are firing from fixed lasguns...".

If your TO wants to interpret that several means 4, and since 4 are shooting lasguns then only 1 special weapon can fire?

Seems like poor reading skills on behalf of your TO

Defined by Dictionary.com
sev⋅er⋅al
/ˈsɛvərəl, ˈsɛvrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sev-er-uhl, sev-ruhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind

**Razerous**

Homer S wrote: Stuff

Really?

Where does it say in those rules the models cannot fire anything but lasguns. Where does it even suggest they can only fire lasguns.

Firepoints: Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch...

Right? Fine? Understand this part? Good. Firepoints, models firing, etc.

... In reality, several are firing from fixed lasgun emplacements along either flank, but for simplicity we assume all shots are taken from the hatch.

This part is purely clarification. There are no more (additional) instructions. What part of this rule are you not understanding?

**Kid_Kyoto**

Honestly I don't think he's totally out of line. It is a very, very poorly phrased rule.

I disagree with him, but I think until a FAQ comes out it's a valid way to read it.

**bigtmac68**

There is nothing in the rule that restricts how many models must fire lasguns. There are 5 firepoints and only a CCS with a comander using a plasma pistol could use all 5 for non lasguns.

Nothing says, implies or indicates a limitation of the number of non lasgun weapons that can be fired. Why do people always try to read into these things ?

Yes is is poorly written, so is half of the IG codex which is the only thing that really keeps me from loving the book, but this one is pretty clear.

**Homer S**

Razerous wrote:
Homer S wrote: Stuff

Really?

Where does it say in those rules the models cannot fire anything but lasguns. Where does it even suggest they can only fire lasguns.

Firepoints: Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch...

Right? Fine? Understand this part? Good. Firepoints, models firing, etc.

... In reality, several are firing from fixed lasgun emplacements along either flank, but for simplicity we assume all shots are taken from the hatch.

This part is purely clarification. There are no more (additional) instructions. What part of this rule are you not understanding?

I did say 1 or more could fire non-lasguns. I also mentioned I would let an IG player do whatever until/unless an FAQ is issued. I was pointing out that a clarification of a rule in the text of the rule is still a rule and not fluff/background. The background is in the 1 and 1/2 columns of text on that same page.

Homer

**Razerous**

Some say its poorly written but I think it misses a few points of abserlute correctness in favour of being a more enjoyable flowing Imperial guard source book.

I dont think there is any confusion over the chimera issue. Once again people are yammering away for an FAQ to sort out RAI etc etc. Its blindingly obvious what is intended. Its pretty hard to actually see it any other way.

I play by the rules.

I bare in mind any and all clarifications.

I wuv my new IG codex.

**The Defenestrator**

bigtmac68 wrote:There is nothing in the rule that restricts how many models must fire lasguns

Abe Lincoln wrote:There's nothing in the rules that say a giraffe can't play football.

sorry, your wording just reminded me. (bonus points to anyone who gets the reference!) seriously though, I agree with Kyoto that it's a little bit ambiguous, but it's fairly obvious to me that they've overrided the old hull-mounted lasguns, and left that off to the end as simply a fluff explanation.

**Kasrkinlegion**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I've always been of the opinion that a Tournament Organiser can do whatever they want. They could arbitrarily declare Multi-Lasers illegal and while you might feel annoyed about it, it's their tournament.

However, if they're attempting to justify their rule change by saying it's RAW or - worse - the 'intent' of the rule (when what they say so clearly contradicts the written rules), then it's time to call him to task.

Arbitrary rulings and game set ups do not make for a good tournament. I've been seeing a lot of this kind of thing in tournaments lately. After having organized a fair number of tournaments myself, I can say one thing should overrule everything else...

Keep it simple...

This TO is not doing that, and he's clearly letting his own bias towards the new codex affect the tournament.

But if he's biased against the new codex, this is not a good sign...