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Does the Officer of the Fleet's; 'Intercept Reserves' ability affect the a Tau players 'Positional Relay'?

Positional Relay: "a single unit that is being held in Reserve may be deployed on a D6 roll of 2+, though no other units in Reserve may be deployed this turn."

So if the Officer of the Fleet affects a 'Positional Relay', does the unit always using it come in on a 3+?

That sounds like how its going to be how it works out.

Officer of the fleet rules state that while he's alive, your opponent MUST subract 1 from ALL his reserve rolls.


Since positional relay is a reserve roll......you subtract 1. 3+

Actually I don't believe that there is a clear cut answer on which rule tales precedence. The Positional Relay says you may deploy a single unit being held in Reserve on a 2+. A 3+ is not a 2+. This is one of them that you will have to roll a D6 for.

Ghaz wrote:Actually I don't believe that there is a clear cut answer on which rule tales precedence. The Positional Relay says you may deploy a single unit being held in Reserve on a 2+. A 3+ is not a 2+. This is one of them that you will have to roll a D6 for.

I was going to comment on this, but since the Positional Relay roll still counts as a Reserve roll, I imagine that the IG rule applies in this case.

Does it say that the 2+ is a reserve roll though?

I read it as "you roll a dice, on a 2+ you may put one unit in reserve into play", that being a separate mechanic from the reserve rolls, which apply to all units in reserve and have a different number you have to roll.

Tau Empire Codex: 4th Edition Pg. 27 wrote: A single unit that is being held in Reserve may be deployed on a d6 roll of 2+, though no other units in Reserve may be deployed this turn.

That is the rule. I could see it being argued either way, so have fun with RAW.

Ghaz wrote:Actually I don't believe that there is a clear cut answer on which rule tales precedence. The Positional Relay says you may deploy a single unit being held in Reserve on a 2+. A 3+ is not a 2+. This is one of them that you will have to roll a D6 for.

I think its wishful thinking on your part.

The exact wording of positiona relay is:

as long as the bearer is on the table at the beginning of the turn in which the device is used, a single unit that is being held in reserve may be deployed ona d6 roll of 2, though no other units un RESERVE may be deployed this turn.

Lets go back to fleet officer:

"Officer of the fleet rules state that while he's alive, your opponent MUST subract 1 from ALL his reserve rolls. "


I think your stretching that roll to d6 it. Its pretty clear cut that the roll for positional relay is a reserve roll- as they talk about the unit being held IN RESERVE, and it will get -1.

It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

But that's overall better for the concept the ninja tau operates since it's geared toward the round 5 alphastrike. I can't see this being that big of a drawback.

carmachu wrote:Its pretty clear cut that the roll for positional relay is a reserve roll

Why?

Reserve rolls have a specific mechanic; they scale depending on how many turns have passed and may be made by every unit in reserve without any special rules.

The orbital relay is completely independent from the rules for rolling for reserves listed in the Rulebook.

carmachu wrote:

Ghaz wrote:
The exact wording of positiona relay is:

I gave you the exact wording. As it is written, I would say that it is implied that the roll counts as the unit coming in from Reserve, but there is not enough clarity for some to feel comfortable with my interpretation of RAI.

So, as seems to be a common answer, "we will have to wait for a FAQ (that will never come) for some certainty on the matter".

Does the positional relay use a reserve roll? The answer is yes. It just trades being able to chance bringing in the whole army from reserve for having a 2+ roll for one unit. Does the IG Officer of the Fleet -1 to all reserve rolls? Yes. If you think otherwise thats great, but your wrong. Anyway, ninja tau are imho handicapping themselves, why not use your shooty armies strength and shoot your whole army for another whole 4 turns.

Che-Vito wrote:

I gave you the exact wording. As it is written, I would say that it is implied that the roll counts as the unit coming in from Reserve, but there is not enough clarity for some to feel comfortable with my interpretation of RAI.

So, as seems to be a common answer, "we will have to wait for a FAQ (that will never come) for some certainty on the matter".

Unless you can make the case that its NOT a reserve roll in any way, shape or form, not even a special version of it, its going to be at -1. The laguage of fleet is pretty clear with "must" and "all".

carmachu wrote:
Unless you can make the case that its NOT a reserve roll in any way, shape or form, not even a special version of it, its going to be at -1. The laguage of fleet is pretty clear with "must" and "all".

Which you cannot make a clear case for. The best that you can do is to "contest" (almost like an objective marker), that the IG rule doesn't apply, but the wording can be argued either way.

Personally, I would argue that it is a Reserve roll.

carmachu wrote:It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

And it doesn't matter what it says. The rules for the Positional Relay says it is a 2+, period. Now what do you have that says that the Officer of the Fleet's Intercept Reserves rules take precedence over the Tau's Positional Relay?

Ghaz wrote:

carmachu wrote:It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

And it doesn't matter what it says. The rules for the Positional Relay says it is a 2+, period. Now what do you have that says that the Officer of the Fleet's Intercept Reserves rules take precedence over the Tau's Positional Relay?

Actually, where does it say it is a 2+ always and always with no exceptions ever? oh wait, it doesn't. You are still coming in on a 2+, but it is a 2+ with the dice roll (not the roll needed, big difference) being modified by -1.

Ghaz wrote:

carmachu wrote:It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

And it doesn't matter what it says. The rules for the Positional Relay says it is a 2+, period. Now what do you have that says that the Officer of the Fleet's Intercept Reserves rules take precedence over the Tau's Positional Relay?

The words "must" and "ALL" seem to spell it out quite clearly stating no matter what reserve type roll you have, whether regular or special or multiples, positional relay doesnt get around that. ALL your opponents reserve rolls.

Care to explain exactly how positional relay gets around that?

Its akin to the old culexus assasin, book of st lucuis arguement. The book gives you a unmodified leadership, the assassin makes your LD 7. so its unmodified....of the lowered 7.


There's no getting around the "must subract one from all reserve rolls." unless you can make a stronger case that your not making a reserve roll.

You've yet to explain how "... may be deployed on a D6 roll of a 2+..." suddenly has an exception attached to it. Unless it's written in the rulebook, it's not a rule. Where does it say "... unless another special rule says otherwise"?

Simple use of the words 'must' and 'all' does not provide you with a trump. There is nothing that says it overrides another special rule. Both modify the Reserve roll. One modifies it to a 2+ and one modifies it by +1, so your Book of St. Lucius argument doesn't hold weight.

So once again, what proof do you have that the Intercept Reserves rule takes precedence? There is none. Neither rule overrides the other.

Ghaz wrote:You've yet to explain how "... may be deployed on a D6 roll of a 2+..." suddenly has an exception attached to it. Unless it's written in the rulebook, it's not a rule. Where does it say "... unless another special rule says otherwise"?

Simple use of the words 'must' and 'all' does not provide you with a trump. There is nothing that says it overrides another special rule. Both modify the Reserve roll. One modifies it to a 2+ and one modifies it by +1, so your Book of St. Lucius argument doesn't hold weight.

So once again, what proof do you have that the Intercept Reserves rule takes precedence? There is none. Neither rule overrides the other.

There's nothing there saying it cant be modified, You keep saying may may may......but may doesnt trump "must" and "all"

Ghaz wrote:So once again, what proof do you have that the Intercept Reserves rule takes precedence? There is none. Neither rule overrides the other.

And once again, you have missed the point. Intercept Reserves DOES NOT CHANGE what you need for Positional relay. You are Still coming on on a 2+. However, the 2+ does not say that it is an unmodified 2+. Intercept reserves modifies the result of the dice you roll, it does not modify what result you need to deploy. Neither rule "overrides" the other because there is no overriding taking place. You need a result of 2+ to bring them in, and whatever you roll is reduced by one by Intercept Reserves (meaning that a Roll of 1 becomes result of 0, a Roll of 2 becomes a Result of 1, a roll of 3 becomes a result of 2 etc etc).

carmachu wrote:There's nothing there saying it cant be modified, You keep saying may may may......but may doesnt trump "must" and "all"

Perhaps you should read THIS before you try to follow that line of 'reasoning' to defend your position.

And yet again, the words 'must' and 'all' are NOT trumps. They simple tell you that you can't decide not to use the Intercept Reserves special rule if it would benefit you. Nothing else.

Gwar wrote:Neither rule "overrides" the other because there is no overriding taking place. You need a result of 2+ to bring them in, and whatever you roll is reduced by one by Intercept Reserves (meaning that a Roll of 1 becomes result of 0, a Roll of 2 becomes a Result of 1, a roll of 3 becomes a result of 2 etc etc).

And as I've already pointed out, a 3+ is not a 2+ no more than an orange is an apple. However after reading your reply, I believe that you may have a point in that the Intercept Reserves rule modifies the dice roll and not the needed result. I'll have to look at the rules a little closer.

Ghaz wrote:

carmachu wrote:There's nothing there saying it cant be modified, You keep saying may may may......but may doesnt trump "must" and "all"

Perhaps you should read THIS before you try to follow that line of 'reasoning' to defend your position.

And yet again, the words 'must' and all' are NOT trumps. They simple tell you that you can't decide not to use the Intercept Reserves special rule if it would benefit you. Nothing else.

And I have shown you what the rules say you CAN do. The rules say you CAN place the unit on a Result of 2+ for your reserves roll. Nowhere does it say the 2+ is never subject to modifiers, so it is subject. Therefore, Intercept Reserves CAN reduce your roll for any and all reserves rolls, including those done by the positional relay. Therefore, you CAN roll your reserve dice, and you CAN (MUST) reduce whatever you roll by 1 to determine the final result.

Sorry mate, you are 100% wrong on this one.

After looking, I will admit that I was wrong but not for the reasons carmachu was trying to use. The Tau Positional Relay gives you a target number of 2+ that has to be rolled for the unit to come in from Reserve while the Intercept Reserves special rule modifies the dice roll being made. The words 'must' and 'all' have nothing to do with it. The two rules affect two different aspects of Reserves.

Ghaz wrote:After looking, I will admit that I was wrong but not for the reasons carmachu was trying to use. The Tau Positional Relay gives you a target number of 2+ that has to be rolled for the unit to come in from Reserve while the Intercept Reserves special rule modifies the dice roll being made. The words 'must' and 'all' have nothing to do with it. The two rules affect two different aspects of Reserves.

Which was my argument -Shakes hand- 'twas a Splendid game of Rules Cricket good sir, would you care to retire for some tea and crumpets, complements of the victor of course-

(I think I need to Up my meds, what do you think? )

How do you know the roll for the positional relay is a reserve roll though?

It doesn't say that it's a reserve roll anywhere in it's description.

Orkeosaurus wrote:How do you know the roll for the positional relay is a reserve roll though?

It doesn't say that it's a reserve roll anywhere in it's description.

Yes there is, I'll Highlight it in Pink:
"a single unit that is being held in Reserve may be deployed on a D6 roll of 2+, though no other units in Reserve may be deployed this turn"

That pretty much cinches it as a Reserves roll.

BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Gwar! wrote:

BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Ah-ha! Yes I missed that. Yeah, the wording most certainly indicates it's a reserve roll.

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Ah-ha! Yes I missed that. Yeah, the wording most certainly indicates it's a reserve roll.

One could argue that because the rule does not specifically say that it is a Reserve roll, then it is something different. RAW, this may be true, but RAI is absolutely that this is a Reserves roll. Looking at the way it is written, and how Reserves is specifically mentioned several times around the rule, I take the RAI to be that it is simply 1 Reserves roll, with a better chance to move a unit onto the table.

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Ah-ha! Yes I missed that. Yeah, the wording most certainly indicates it's a reserve roll.

One could argue that because the rule does not specifically say that it is a Reserve roll, then it is something different. RAW, this may be true, but RAI is absolutely that this is a Reserves roll. Looking at the way it is written, and how Reserves is specifically mentioned several times around the rule, I take the RAI to be that it is simply 1 Reserves roll, with a better chance to move a unit onto the table.

It's a roll to deploy a unit being held in reserve. Isn't arguing that that isn't a reserve roll like arguing that a ticket given to you for speeding isn't a speeding ticket?

Solkan is absolutely on target. There are *a lot* of instances where GW just doesn't spell absolutely everything out for us, and we have to be able to use a little common sense (often times RAW is in direct opposition to common sense).

A great example is in the DE codex. In the description for Raiders, the Raider can only hold Dark Eldar. Not Dark Eldar units or anything like this but only hold Dark Eldar. Yet, Grotesques which are *not* Dark Eldar have an option to buy a Raider in their options. EDIT: There is also a very similar situation in the Tau Codex too.

Funny, the authors do not write these rules for us to dissect and legalize, but as a ground for us to play on and nothing else. Legalizing rules tend to lead to us to unexpected results.