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This reminds me of the "argument" people use to try and stop people using perfectly legitimate 2nd edition Avatars.

The argument was basically, the 4th ed Codex says the Avatar has the Wailing Doom. The 2nd edition model (armed with the weapons it had in the 2nd edition Codex) does not have a Wailing Doom, but has +++=][=+++Xenos Language Censored by order of the Ordo Xenos Directive D573.9 +++=][=+++ which when translated into Gothic (English) was "The Doom That Wails". Therefore the 2nd edition Model is no Longer WYSIWYG and therefore Illegal to use

solkan wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Ah-ha! Yes I missed that. Yeah, the wording most certainly indicates it's a reserve roll.

One could argue that because the rule does not specifically say that it is a Reserve roll, then it is something different. RAW, this may be true, but RAI is absolutely that this is a Reserves roll. Looking at the way it is written, and how Reserves is specifically mentioned several times around the rule, I take the RAI to be that it is simply 1 Reserves roll, with a better chance to move a unit onto the table.

It's a roll to deploy a unit being held in reserve. Isn't arguing that that isn't a reserve roll like arguing that a ticket given to you for speeding isn't a speeding ticket?

Trust me, if you read the second half of my post that you quoted, we agree.

The sad part, is that from what I have seen on Dakka, there are people who will say that "because the rule doesn't dot every i and cross every t, I can manipulate these rules to my own end, even though I have a pretty good idea of what RAI is". This rule could fall into that realm as something arguable for some, while personally I think it is pretty clear cut.

Gwar! wrote:Which was my argument -Shakes hand- 'twas a Splendid game of Rules Cricket good sir, would you care to retire for some tea and crumpets, complements of the victor of course-

(I think I need to Up my meds, what do you think? )

But it wasn't the argument carmachu was using, was it? He was arguing that the words 'must' and 'all' changed the target roll from a 2+ to a 3+. It doesn't, yet he claimed it did. What Intercept Reserves actually does is change the dice roll from a 2 to a 3. He may have had the right answer, but he had it for the wrong reason. Reread the thread again and you'll see that I even said you had a point and I had to go back and recheck the rules.

So I still stand by my statement that if there were a rule that changes the dice roll then Intercept Reserves would not automatically take precedence just because of the words 'must' and 'all'. It works in this case because the Positional Relay doesn't affect the dice roll, but the target number.

solkan wrote:It's a roll to deploy a unit being held in reserve. Isn't arguing that that isn't a reserve roll like arguing that a ticket given to you for speeding isn't a speeding ticket?

The difference is there are already rules for rolling for reserves, and they're completely independent of the roll for positional relay.

If you received a ticket due to driving too fast, but the ticket you were given wasn't the type of ticket normally received for speeding, and neither the officer issuing it nor ticket itself said that it actually was a speeding ticket, I think whether or not the ticket was a speeding ticket would come into question.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

solkan wrote:It's a roll to deploy a unit being held in reserve. Isn't arguing that that isn't a reserve roll like arguing that a ticket given to you for speeding isn't a speeding ticket?

The difference is there are already rules for rolling for reserves, and they're completely independent of the roll for positional relay.

If you received a ticket due to driving too fast, but the ticket you were given wasn't the type of ticket normally received for speeding, and neither the officer issuing it nor ticket itself said that it actually was a speeding ticket, I think whether or not the ticket was a speeding ticket would come into question.

Oh what the hell.....??? My mind was not only just blown into the realm of confusion, but think that this argument simply needs to be take as a "discuss it with your opponent" kind of thing.

Agree to disagree, for my sanity.

I believe Orkeo's arguing that a "Reserves Roll" is a very specific dice roll only used by the reserves rules. While the Positional Relay does allow units to come in from Reserves, it is not a "Reserves Roll", just a dice roll for a mechanic that is similar to reserves. Kinda like how Daemon Hunter force weapons don't cause Instant Death...they just do the same effect. I think, I may be entirely wrong.

RustyKnight wrote:I believe Orkeo's arguing that a "Reserves Roll" is a very specific dice roll only used by the reserves rules. While the Positional Relay does allow units to come in from Reserves, it is not a "Reserves Roll", just a dice roll for a mechanic that is similar to reserves. Kinda like how Daemon Hunter force weapons don't cause Instant Death...they just do the same effect. I think, I may be entirely wrong.

I believe that is what he intended as well, but someone muddled the matter with real life analogy. In short, I can only say that there is nothing to backup his claim that this is a specifically different roll, nor is there anything to say that it isn't. The matter would probably have to be decided on a case-by-case basis between opponents, but I imagine that when the 4th Edition Tau Codex was made, the concept of Fleet Officer hadn't been considered (as far as how it would impact Positional Relay), so they had no need to clarify.

I always assumed it to be a Reserves roll, as the Positional Relay rules don't specify one way or the other. Clearly it can be argued both ways, so as I've been saying for my past several posts...it is clear that nothing definitive can be found, as both sides of this argument see the RAI to be differing.

carmachu wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Actually I don't believe that there is a clear cut answer on which rule tales precedence. The Positional Relay says you may deploy a single unit being held in Reserve on a 2+. A 3+ is not a 2+. This is one of them that you will have to roll a D6 for.

I think its wishful thinking on your part.

The exact wording of positiona relay is:

as long as the bearer is on the table at the beginning of the turn in which the device is used, a single unit that is being held in reserve may be deployed ona d6 roll of 2, though no other units un RESERVE may be deployed this turn.

Lets go back to fleet officer:

"Officer of the fleet rules state that while he's alive, your opponent MUST subract 1 from ALL his reserve rolls. "


I think your stretching that roll to d6 it. Its pretty clear cut that the roll for positional relay is a reserve roll- as they talk about the unit being held IN RESERVE, and it will get -1.

It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

I agree. So in order: "a single unit that is being held in reserve may be deployed ona d6 roll of 2". So I need a 2+ to enter in from reserves. I roll a D6 and get a 2. But "Officer of the fleet rules state that while he's alive, your opponent MUST subract 1 from ALL his reserve rolls." So that 2 becomes a 1. The reserve threshold is not modified, the 2+ doesn't become a 3+, it stays a 2+. Only the actual roll you make is modified. So both rules are satisfied.

RustyKnight wrote:I believe Orkeo's arguing that a "Reserves Roll" is a very specific dice roll only used by the reserves rules. While the Positional Relay does allow units to come in from Reserves, it is not a "Reserves Roll", just a dice roll for a mechanic that is similar to reserves.

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

I wouldn't say it's unarguably correct or anything, but when I first read the rule I saw it as a separate mechanic from the reserve rolls.

Probably a good thing to go over with your opponent. (I have a MotF, but I really don't care either way.)

I'd agree with wyomincfox, it seems the most logical interpretation of the rules. Particularly given the rolling nature of GW writing, which reqires us to use ROI in order to interpreate the way new codex rules interact with old Codex rules.

the two dont conflict with each other.
The Pos Relay just lets you bring one thing on a roll of 2+ but nothing else. The Intercept Reserves forces you to subtract one from your roll. If you roll a 2 then Minus 1 becomes 1, and 1 is not 2+.

so Yes would would still need an effective roll of 3 to bring something in.

Che-Vito wrote:

Tau Empire Codex: 4th Edition Pg. 27 wrote: A single unit that is being held in Reserve may be deployed on a d6 roll of 2+, though no other units in Reserve may be deployed this turn.

That is the rule. I could see it being argued either way, so have fun with RAW.

To me this first of all looks more like a special ability to bring in 1 unit from reserve, not making a reserve roll.

carmachu wrote:Unless you can make the case that its NOT a reserve roll in any way, shape or form, not even a special version of it, its going to be at -1. The laguage of fleet is pretty clear with "must" and "all".

So what I can say the exact same thing. Unless YOU can make the case that it IS a reserve roll in any way, shape or form, it's not going to be at -1. See that? it works both ways.




-Orkishly

Ghaz wrote:

carmachu wrote:It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

And it doesn't matter what it says. The rules for the Positional Relay says it is a 2+, period. Now what do you have that says that the Officer of the Fleet's Intercept Reserves rules take precedence over the Tau's Positional Relay?

What's your point? The rules for normal reserve rolls say that they are 4+/3+/2+, period.

They still get modified.

Che-Vito wrote:

solkan wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:BTW, what book is the Positional Relay in?

Posted earlier, it is pg. 27 of the Tau Empire 4th Edition codex.

Ah-ha! Yes I missed that. Yeah, the wording most certainly indicates it's a reserve roll.

One could argue that because the rule does not specifically say that it is a Reserve roll, then it is something different. RAW, this may be true, but RAI is absolutely that this is a Reserves roll. Looking at the way it is written, and how Reserves is specifically mentioned several times around the rule, I take the RAI to be that it is simply 1 Reserves roll, with a better chance to move a unit onto the table.

It's a roll to deploy a unit being held in reserve. Isn't arguing that that isn't a reserve roll like arguing that a ticket given to you for speeding isn't a speeding ticket?

Trust me, if you read the second half of my post that you quoted, we agree.

The sad part, is that from what I have seen on Dakka, there are people who will say that "because the rule doesn't dot every i and cross every t, I can manipulate these rules to my own end, even though I have a pretty good idea of what RAI is". This rule could fall into that realm as something arguable for some, while personally I think it is pretty clear cut.

I win the nested quote war!

I think this was pretty much settled by the (now) ancient post of Gwar's which stated that it was the die roll that is modified, not the probability.

A: "A Skyray, cute. You bringing that in from Reserve?"
B: " Yep. I'm using a Positional Relay, so I need a 2+."
A: "Alrighty, roll it Diamond Jim."
B: "Got a 2 on the die. Booyah!"
A: " Subtract 1 from that for my Officer for a 1. Sorry Charlie."
B: "%$$#@(#!!"

The police report of the incident cleared Player B of any wrongdoing, but suspicion lingered as Player A had a unusual fear of resin flyers.

I agree with Gwar, but not with his Sig.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

carmachu wrote:It doesnt matter how you try and work it out, ALL the reserve rolls are at -1, rgular or special. Officer of the fleet specifically says ALL his opponents reserve rolls while he's alive.

And it doesn't matter what it says. The rules for the Positional Relay says it is a 2+, period. Now what do you have that says that the Officer of the Fleet's Intercept Reserves rules take precedence over the Tau's Positional Relay?

What's your point? The rules for normal reserve rolls say that they are 4+/3+/2+, period.

They still get modified.

No, they don't. A codex may override the main rulebook, but not necessarily another codex. Anyway, if you were to read the rest of the thread before replying you would have noticed that the target number isn't what's being modified.

Hm. I've always interpreted the positional relay as being parsed differently; it's an item that only works on a 2+, but if it works, one thing comes in from reserve automatically. When you try and use it, no other models can be brought in from reserve on that turn.

In other words, I've always interpreted the wording as equivalent to this:

On a d6 roll of 2+, the Positional Relay allows single unit that is being held in Reserve to be deployed. No other units in Reserve may be deployed this turn.

In other other words:

A: "A Skyray, cute. You bringing that in from Reserve?"
B: " Yep. I'm using a Positional Relay, so I need a 2+."
A: "Alrighty, roll it Diamond Jim."
B: "Got a 2 on the die."
A: " Subtract 1 from that for my Officer for a 1. Sorry Charlie."
B: "But I wasn't making a Reserves roll, I was rolling to see if the Positional Relay works. The Officer doesn't change a roll to see if an item works, does it?"
A: "... %$$#@(#!!"

I have always interpreted Positional Relay to have modified the reserve rule rather than being a separate rules mechanic.

-I've played a few games with a mate who uses a positional relay.

-In a very heated argument we eventually decided to accept that the pos relay roll WAS a reserve roll as they were deploying from reserve and he rolled the dice to do it :. reserve roll

-He rolled on our little 3+ rule and rolled a 2...lol