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Since people are so insistent on going on about religion here, let's have a good, clean topic. We're all going to voice our beliefs and there's going to be no flaming, not trolling, and no religious dogma or zealotry.

Ok. Evolution. I believe that God created everything we see, and that we were indeed cavemen/neanderthals for a while as we established our presence on earth. Dinosaurs lived at this time, and not long after the first true civilisations appeared, people started sinning on a massive scale, and the flood occurred. The dinosaurs and most humans were wiped clean off the earth, and afterwards, God distanced himself from us so that we would have a second chance to control our own actions.

Jesus lived some time after this, and everything that is written in the Bible regarding him, I percieve to be divine truth. I don't believe that he was God himself, unlike some Christians, but rather His son, as was written.

In this time, the Bible was penned, and people started following the Church. In this time, the heads of the Church realised that they could control these people by re-writing the Bible constantly and saying that they were the messiahs. This was fixed partially by translating the Bible into english, so that the common man could read it. Now, because the Church could not re-write the Bible, they lost most of their power.

Now, I don't really feel like I fit into any of the specific Churches. I attend a 'community Church', which welcomes all Christians and doesn't have a bias towards any of them. I feel like a bit of a black sheep to be honest. I'm pretty new to Christianity (I chose to become religious), but I understand it all. It offers to me a sense of clarity and understanding. When I read the Bible, everything just clicked into place. Answers that I doubted were corrected. This, for me, was the turning point in my life. I no longer have reason to be depressed or ignorant, because I always have my faith to support me.

I'm not opposed to people's sexual orientation, race, religion, or choices in life. You're a smoker? I'm fine with that. You like a wild night out with girls and booze? Who doesn't?

I am, however, opposed to all recreational drugs and binge drinking. Even marijuana. Those things clog your mind and corrupt your perception of the world around you. My dad learned that the hard way; now he's dead and gone. Granted, it wasn't just the drugs and alcohol that did that do him, but they played a big part in his miserable life. I'm not set in the old ways of Christianity with praying every day and for everything. Although God has a path for us all, that path is very malleable, and ultimately, we control our own actions. Being Christian isn't about praying or purging the so-called 'unclean', it's about being a good and virtuous person. Sure, I pray, and I go to Church, but not every sunday. I pray mostly when I feel it is needed, like when someone is horribly sick or dying. I'm sure I've seen lots of miracles in my life; my friend pulling through cancer, seeing an amazing story on the news, and then some.

Oh, and before I forget; I think science is a good thing, MOSTLY. Cloning is just wrong. If life isn't created by the natural way of things, it doesn't have a place in the world. It wasn't born with a true soul, and a clone is truly an abomination. Your genes are yours, and yours alone. Nobody should be the same as you.

And when it comes to scientifically explaining the Bible, you can't. The events in the Bible are Deus Ex Machina. They don't need explaining, because if something was done by the will of God, it is so. It's as simple as that.

That's my 2 Australian cents. Please don't turn this into a 'hurr durr, Christians are tards' thread like others tend to or a personal attack on me.

K first of all, neanderthals never lived at same time as dinosaurs.

Time / situation / necessity / environments dictates his(tory) More injustice the time is , more comfort humans seek , more powerful are the beings thats supposed to protect us. I believe Jesus exists , i believe he was a very important person. However i also believe he was glorified to suit the need of the people of that time.

Even you said yourself , church and people with power have rewritten the bible to give themselves more power. Then how can the bible be divine truth at the same time?

Natural disasters happens all the time , how many times have USA been flooded? ( every year there are floods there) every year there are typhoons in asia , every year there are earth quakes near equator , are you saying they are the wrath of god?

And no , religion thread can never go smoothly . Because its people trying to piece it with facts compare it to people defending it "faith" alone. Its just not possible to discuss it properly.

When it comes to this sort of thing there are so many aspects its hard to know where to begin. I'll do a quick summing up. Bear in mind this is simply my own thoughts and opinions on the subject. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong or stupid in theirs are different.

Firstly the belief that a being/Deity of some description was responsible for the creation of the universe and of all life on earth (and presumably elsewhere too).

This I accept is a possibility, albeit as far as I'm concerned, an very unlikely one. I accept that there are always going to be unknowns and the concept of an all powerful creator does fill plenty of gaps. What bugs me is that the entire concept centers on the idea that something complex (for example the human body) can only be created by something which in itself is even more complex. Therefore if such being created humanity then something even more complex mush have created it, which in turn must have yet another all powerful creator. As a result the whole thing for me is a bit of a non starter, especially without any clear indicator of a supernatural involvement.

As for religion itself, the collective worship of said all powerful being. Well again the whole concept bugs me because even if such a being where to exist, I don't honestly believe that it would want to worshiped. Worship of an authority figure seems to me to be a very human trait that I don't think a creator would either require or desire. Besides there is something about the concept of an all-powerful, unaccountable overlord judging people based on their private thoughts and activities without any form of mandate or approval which upsets the filthy liberal in me. Christopher Hitchens once described this as the Celestial North Korea.

As for the 'organized' religions of humanity I personally have little doubt that they are entirely human in manufacture. If a creator where to exist I am positive that they would bear no resemblance to any of the major or minor faiths. I thinks its been established how various traditions and beliefs have been passed from one religion to another and many aspects of modern major faiths can be traced back to the older religions they replaced. So again it just seems a non-starter.

As for Religion in society, well I'm all for the right of anyone to believe what they want in private. However I don't think it deserves any form of special place in society's day to day running's. I don't wasn't to see prayer enforced in schools, I don't want creationism taught outside of R.E. lessons, I don't want to see Bishops in the House of Lords and I want religions to start paying taxes. So I'm essentially a secularist. I'm all for the right for religion to exist but it about time it stopped getting a free ride.

As for Morality I don't think that religious belief is required in anyway to make moral decisions. Religious people should of course be free to contribute to moral and ethical debates but I don't think religion should have the final word, nor should its arguments can any more weight than non religious arguments. If the toss goes against them (Say for example Cloning, Abortion or Gay rights) They are always free to refuse to partake in the end result.

Ok, Evolution. To me this represents by far the most logical and plausible explanation for the current state of life upon the planet. It's been a while since A-Level biology but even back then I remember being overwhelmed by how simple and yet brilliant it was. I can't remember much of it now but at the time it made sense on so many levels and the evidence was utterly overwhelming. It even goes on to this day. In fact whole branches of medical science operate based on evolution occurring all around us. I realise that it has many doubters and Cheese Elemental whilst you are perfectly entitled to reject evolution I personally cannot fathom such a mindset.

Anyway it's 1AM and I'm Knackered. I may be able to think of more in the morning.

My view on the age of the earth and the things that lived on it in the past is that God made the earth look old. To be honest, carbon-dating can't always be that accurate.

Now, sorry for the confusion about the Bible. I believe that it is divine truth when it comes to the base lessons and the commandments. These things have shaped modern society. If there hadn't been a Bible, would murder be illegal? Would adultery be frowned upon?

If you read it, it's kind of obvious what the Church wrote themselves. Things like homophobia were put in there because it was deemed unnatural in those days. God loves all his subjects. He does not judge; only humans make judgements.

Don't start trying to scientifically disprove the Bible, because you can't.

Cheese Elemental wrote:My view on the age of the earth and the things that lived on it in the past is that God made the earth look old. To be honest, carbon-dating can't always be that accurate.

Now, sorry for the confusion about the Bible. I believe that it is divine truth when it comes to the base lessons and the commandments. These things have shaped modern society. If there hadn't been a Bible, would murder be illegal? Would adultery be frowned upon?

If you read it, it's kind of obvious what the Church wrote themselves. Things like homophobia were put in there because it was deemed unnatural in those days. God loves all his subjects. He does not judge; only humans make judgements.

Don't start trying to scientifically disprove the Bible, because you can't.

Considering the rest of the world that never read the bible ( buddhist , hindu , muslim ) I would say.... er yes?

Im just curiouse cheese , how do you suppose we talk about this? For everything with scientific proof we are going to say , you'll retort with "its faith , its divine truth"
just how? Would there be a point then to such a discussion?

Also , since you seem to be pretty active religiously i have a side question .

A few weekends ago i was visited by church people asking me to go with them to be baptized. They told me the act of baptism is to wash away the sins i carry with me.
And if i baptize, it would wash away all my sins and grant me access to heaven.

So i asked them , if i have only done good my whole life, i would still go to hell if i dont baptize? they said yes. Because sin is something i carried the moment i stepped into this world.
Then i asked , if a murderer gets baptized , what would happen? They said god is all merciful and all forgiving. Baptism is all mighty and will wash away all sins and the murderer can go heaven.

So i told them to forgive me , because thats wouldnt be the type of heaven im envied to get into if thats the case.

Then they said life is short , they care about me and i could die in any moment so its their duty to take me to baptize right away.

So i said even if i dont believe a single word , baptism will grant me salvation? They said yes.

So i apologized to them again . i told them even though im not Christian , i have every absolute respect for them. I will not go through such a holy ritual half hearted.

So after 1 hour atleast of them trying to drag me out of my house , i told them " Its not that i dont believe in god , its because i dont believe it matters. I will be good , i will do good because i can.
I dont need to pretend to be good so i can save myself a seat in heaven. If im to die , and there is really no heaven , thats fine. Because i have lived my life doing good. If i died , and there is really a heaven
yet i cannot go there because i didnt baptize (despite my whole life of been good ) , then you think that God is fair?

Think about it.

LuciusAR wrote:Firstly the belief that a being/Deity of some description was responsible for the creation of the universe and of all life on earth (and presumably elsewhere too).
This I accept is a possibility, albeit as far as I'm concerned, an very unlikely one. I accept that there are always going to be unknowns and the concept of an all powerful creator does fill plenty of gaps. What bugs me is that the entire concept centers on the idea that something complex (for example the human body) can only be created by something which in itself is even more complex. Therefore if such being created humanity then something even more complex mush have created it, which in turn must have yet another all powerful creator. As a result the whole thing for me is a bit of a non starter, especially without any clear indicator of a supernatural involvement.

This bugs me too. It makes me wonder, is God just another person in an entirely different higher universe? Is he a sentient mind created by the cosmos? I'll have to ponder that.

LuciusAR wrote:As for religion itself, the collective worship of said all powerful being. Well again the whole concept bugs me because even if such a being where to exist, I don't honestly believe that it would want to worshiped. Worship of an authority figure seems to me to be a very human trait that I don't think a creator would either require or desire. Besides there is something about the concept of an all-powerful, unaccountable overlord judging people based on their private thoughts and activities without any form of mandate or approval which upsets the filthy liberal in me. Christopher Hitchens once described this as the Celestial North Korea.

Thankfully, most modern religious people are willing to accept the rest of the world around them. I find that most Christians I know don't worship God in the way some people think. We don't all run around screaming 'Praise God or you'll burn!', but rather I think that we see him as a sort of father figure. Remember when you were a little kid and you'd ask an adult for help with everything? It's like that. God is here to help us through our lives if we open up to him. Note that I'm not saying he wants worship, just to be acknowledged and listened to.

LuciusAR wrote:As for the 'organized' religions of humanity I personally have little doubt that they are entirely human in manufacture. If a creator where to exist I am positive that they would bear no resemblance to any of the major or minor faiths. I thinks its been established how various traditions and beliefs have been passed from one religion to another and many aspects of modern major faiths can be traced back to the older religions they replaced. So again it just seems a non-starter.

True, religion has been warped and changed so much over the millenia that it probably doesn't resemble what it started as. Most religions probably still have their basic tenants, but interpretations change with the people.

LuciusAR wrote:As for Religion in society, well I'm all for the right of anyone to believe what they want in private. However I don't think it deserves any form of special place in society's day to day running's. I don't wasn't to see prayer enforced in schools, I don't want creationism taught outside of R.E. lessons, I don't want to see Bishops in the House of Lords and I want religions to start paying taxes. So I'm essentially a secularist. I'm all for the right for religion to exist but it about time it stopped getting a free ride.

Exactly what I think. Beliefs shouldn't be forced on people (I'm looking at you, Jehovah's Witnesses), but do have their place in society. Religions, though they have their faults, have mostly been a cause for good. It's mostly greed that lets them down. There's always someone looking to abuse and manipulate something pure for their own gain.

LuciusAR wrote:As for Morality I don't think that religious belief is required in anyway to make moral decisions. Religious people should of course be free to contribute to moral and ethical debates but I don't think religion should have the final word, nor should its arguments can any more weight than non religious arguments. If the toss goes against them (Say for example Cloning, Abortion or Gay rights) They are always free to refuse to partake in the end result.

Indeed. I'm all for equality worldwide, but I'm still opposed to some things that scientists think are good ideas, like cloning and abortion.

Im just curiouse cheese , how do you suppose we talk about this? For everything with scientific proof we are going to say , you'll retort with "its faith , its divine truth"
just how? Would there be a point then to such a discussion?

Wow luna!
took the words right out of my mouth hun

i think thats pretty much job done on this thread.

This is not an argumental thread, this is for discussion of religion and how it affects the world and humans.

Cheese Elemental wrote:This is not an argumental thread

I disagree.

Your lolcats can't stop this thread.

I will move my post here then from the What on yor mind thread

Cheese Elemental wrote:

youbedead wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:It's not the old new testament (doesn't make sense, but what the heck). It's called The Seventh Level, and it's basically a reinterpretation based on the modern Christian's beliefs.

no offense but that deffinetly deserves a wtf. If a religous text can be changed so that it fits the views of that particular society then does it not defeat the purpose of the text in the first place.

Ok, let me define it properly this time. It has the New Testament in it and the rest of the book is about modern Christianity. If you're going to start another Christian-bashing conversation, don't do it here. Don't ask, don't tell. Leave it at that.

I am not bashing Christians I am merely stating that a book that defines morals should not be changed, to fit the morals of the person doing the changing. I am Quite spiritual myself, yet I can also see that many people have used religion for personal gain, or to harm others. No offense intended during the middle ages the church was know for doing this, since no peasant could read Latin the priest could merely say that it says in the bible that you will give me one tenth of your income.

Something else to think on: I endorse being able to look at my beliefs in a humourous light. It's just like learning to laugh at yourself. Someone's always going to poke fun at you, and you have to accept that something's always funny about your beliefs. The Life of Brian was a really good example. I liked it because it actually highlighted how religious dogma and being a sheep will only prevent you from reaching your potential.

Cheese Elemental wrote:My view on the age of the earth and the things that lived on it in the past is that God made the earth look old. To be honest, carbon-dating can't always be that accurate.

Now, sorry for the confusion about the Bible. I believe that it is divine truth when it comes to the base lessons and the commandments. These things have shaped modern society. If there hadn't been a Bible, would murder be illegal? Would adultery be frowned upon?

If you read it, it's kind of obvious what the Church wrote themselves. Things like homophobia were put in there because it was deemed unnatural in those days. God loves all his subjects. He does not judge; only humans make judgements.

Don't start trying to scientifically disprove the Bible, because you can't.

So your view is God created natural laws as a gargantuan trick on humanity? So the age of the earth becomes a huge provable lie?

Either 6000 years is wrong based on a primitive interpretation of a religious tract meant to make the world understandable interpreted in the 17th century by a local priest, or the observable natural laws are incorrect and God created a large number of lies distributed under the earth.

Now I don't know which seems more likely to you but either God lies or the Bible may not be 100% correct on the creation stories (of which there are two with some contradictory points). Now as a Christian from a sect which approves of science, I am left with the decision based on my ratioal view of the world which indicates that Biblical literalism is probably the most indefensible position one can take.

I think that God might not have wanted us to know that we were created by Him, so he made the earth look ancient. Of course, if that is true, then he wouldn't want followers and he wouldn't have inspired the Bible and his prophets.

My view may be flawed, but I think it's a reasonable idea. Feel free to debate it.

Another alternate view that my Mormon friend suggested was that civilisation existed in full before the flood, and after the flood, an entirely new ecosystem was created. Earth could have been a very different place back then, and it would account for the strange-looking skeletons of neanderthals we find.

@cheese E.

I have 2 questions. Is God you believe in Omniscient ?
is he a murderer?

* I really want you to answer me this , because you know what i will ask next right?

Take a look at it this way. In the Bible everything is created in 7 days, which we know as 24 hours. But what about God's day? Several millennium could be a day for God.

Luna:
1) Omniscient? It's hard to say. I think that while He has a plan for everyone, he doesn't have a hand in their everyday lives.
2)Murderer? No. He may have destroyed the world once before, but it was better than letting it stagnate.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Luna:
1) Omniscient? It's hard to say. I think that while He has a plan for everyone, he doesn't have a hand in their everyday lives.
2)Murderer? No. He may have destroyed the world once before, but it was better than letting it stagnate.

If god is omnipotent, then he is omniscient.

If he is omniscient he would have realized the humans he created have flaws.

If he didnt know that, then he obviously wasnt omnipotent.

If he did know the humans he created was flawed , then he was a murderer to kill them with the great flood.

Do you see the logic?

Omnipotent and omniscient are completely different. One means all-powerful (which we know is true, since He made the earth), whilst the other means all-seeing, which I don't really think He is.

He might not have predicted humanity's flaws. He didn't shape their minds and souls; we choose our own path.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Omnipotent and omniscient are completely different. One means all-powerful (which we know is true, since He made the earth), whilst the other means all-seeing, which I don't really think He is.

He might not have predicted humanity's flaws. He didn't shape their minds and souls; we choose our own path.

Omniscient cannot guarantee omnipotent . But if one is omnipotent , then for sure they can be omniscient.

If god created human , he would know how we tick. If he know how we tick , he would know what we are capable of , and what we can evolve into.
In other words , he would know we would be sinful. Just like we know if we add sugar , food will taste sweet.


And no , i dont buy the " we know its true because he made the earth " either prove it or dont use examples purely based on FAITH.

see? this is why we will never be able to discuss it. You can pull things out of thin air and dismiss all my points.


Now the REAL question IMO ( what most of dakka reader is thinking ) is , how stupid can lunahound be to carry on this *discussion even though she already knew
the discussion will never get anywhere.

So yes im staying out of this now due to the underlined part which i repeated too many times already.

Ok,I'm going to start by simply saying that I belive in peoples rights to choose to belive or not to belive in any "god".
That being said,I personally have alot of "questions" concering religion as well as the whole concept of "god".
Starting from the very begining of the bible,I find the concept flawed,not scientificly(although it is) but in it's own view and doctrines.
For example,let's take the story of creation,I can suspend disbelife to a point were I could possibly accept an all powerful being could create all life,all things inside and outside the universe etc,etc,etc.
It's at this point that I begin to have problems,if we assume that "god" is all powerful,all knowing,all seeing,then he would HAVE to already know the course of action his creations would take.
So my first question (in a LONG line of questions) is why would an all knowing "god" place the instrument for mankinds fall from grace (the tree of knowledge) in his garden of eden,and futher forbid his creations ( adam & eve) from eating of this tree.
This to me seems like a gesture akin to me placing my .45 on the living room table and telling my two children not to touch it.
Now,taking the bibles own teachings,"god" knows everything,so "god" already knew what would occour,thus "baiting"his new creations into falling from grace.
By this same rational,one could also say that,since "god" is all knowing,he already knows wich of his creations will be going to "hell" to suffer "eternal agony" yet he creates them anyway.
My question is does this sound like the work of a "loving father figure"?
I have ALOT more questions,but I'll leave it at this for now.

I also have a question for you Cheese E:
If ALL-powerful is creating a planet or human life, do you fear cloning not because is seems wrong but because it would make the doctors/people involved creating human life all-powerful and on the same par as a god?

Note: I respect any and all beliefs, i have no bias, im not bashing, im just curious

Also , scientist have been testing and manipulating genes . How to make things more muscular , more ferocious , more docile.
They also know the genetic pattern that makes people compulsive liars , prone to illness etc etc.

From all these accomplishment from mere human beings , you are saying the mighty god isnt able see this coming when he created humans?

Which then he proceeded to murder them all with the great flood?

Seriously Cheese , its one or the other which do you accept.

He either murdered them knowingly since he created them.
Or he didnt have the capacity of mere scientist in sorting the genes out.

Well maybe he did see it coming, but thought that humanity would be able to control itself. Inevitably, there are sinners in eveery society.

And I'm getting this locked because it's going to fall into a flame war.

a flame war, eh.
seems to just be people talking about their opinions so far, though they happen to differ from your own.

myself, i'm not a fan of religion particularly, and leave it at that

I'm a Deist. Thus, I believe in a creator god. My views are different and listed here:

1. Deity created the Universe via big bang.
2. Deity created outlines for the Universe's development but didn't guide it except the creation of the very basis of life.
3. Evolution does guide the development of living things and all animals, plants, etc are not designed by Deity but by the Universe itself.
4. Deity is omnipotent and omniscient but not omnipresent.
5. Morals are universal and all are based on the Golden Rule.
6. Not sure about the afterlife.
7. All living things are meant to be free thus no one should live under tyranny.
8. Origin of Deity? Hard to determine since it's a being that lived before the Universe hence is out of our space-time. We can never know Deity 100%.
9. Organized religion is an attempt to control people. Why else would they have strict rules and want money?
10. To me, all religions are right and wrong. They are right that a higher being exists but wrong in certain supernatural events. Want miracles? Life, love, Golden Rule, and ability to comprehend the Universe.

Thanks and have a nice day.

What the hell, I'll bite.

I don't believe in much. Everytime someone tries to throw their beliefs on me I respond by saying "But that's not what Lucifer said." People in my school are stupid enough to believe that, so I get left alone. What I do believe in is this:


1. I do not, and most likely can not, have the capacity of faith required to believe in a God, or that "he" made the earth and heaven in seven days. reason being...

2. I have thoughts. Why'd he kill his own son? Why'd he let the Holocaust happen? Why is John McCain alive?

3. Sinning. I know full well what the greatest sin is, and it is not lust, or sloath. It is theft. Steal a man's life, you not only take his life, you take his kids right to a father, his lovers right to a spouse, and so on and so forth.

4. I believe that God does not care abot every single detail of our lives. He care about how we live them.



I wish I could believe in God, but I just don't posses the faith, at least in this stage of life. Maybe when I'm not so cynical. For now, Buddhism calls me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LiterateWolf wrote:I'm a Deist. Thus, I believe in a creator god. My views are different and listed here:

1. Deity created the Universe via big bang.
2. Deity created outlines for the Universe's development but didn't guide it except the creation of the very basis of life.
3. Evolution does guide the development of living things and all animals, plants, etc are not designed by Deity but by the Universe itself.
4. Deity is omnipotent and omniscient but not omnipresent.
5. Morals are universal and all are based on the Golden Rule.
6. Not sure about the afterlife.
7. All living things are meant to be free thus no one should live under tyranny.
8. Origin of Deity? Hard to determine since it's a being that lived before the Universe hence is out of our space-time. We can never know Deity 100%.
9. Organized religion is an attempt to control people. Why else would they have strict rules and want money?
10. To me, all religions are right and wrong. They are right that a higher being exists but wrong in certain supernatural events. Want miracles? Life, love, Golden Rule, and ability to comprehend the Universe.

Thanks and have a nice day.

This is something that seems reasonable to me. But once again, I don't have the capacity of faith to believe in God, at least right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the debate of omnicent and omnipotent, maybe he is all powerful, but chooses not to be all seeing.

Example: I see an 80 yr old smoke. I can choose to ignore it, as it doesn't affect me.

Example: I see a little kid smoking. I choose to act, as otherwise I'd feel like crap, even though I'd neer really be able to know if he died or lived, and whether my actions would keep him from dying.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Now, sorry for the confusion about the Bible. I believe that it is divine truth when it comes to the base lessons and the commandments. These things have shaped modern society. If there hadn't been a Bible, would murder be illegal? Would adultery be frowned upon?

Given that a long list of societies before had outlawed murder I think it is safe to say that murder would have continued to be just as illegal as it had always been. Adultery is a lot more complicated, because the modern concept of marriage and fidelity is, well, very modern. It is not something supported for most of history, even post Bible history (ever noticed the number of kings even in Christian courts that kept large numbers of mistresses and had children with them, often children with equal claims to the throne as those born in formal marriages).

Anyhow, for what its worth, I like your ideas about your own faith. They contain a very interesting mix of individuality and dogmatism. I don’t agree with everything you write but I suspect you’d think the same of my own and that’s alright. I will say, though, that it seems to me that you’re at the start of your journey in finding your own faith, and a lot of your ideas are very rough at this point and could benefit from some challenging questions (such as the idea above that murder might not have been illegal but for the bible). I think it is for the best that you keep conversations like this going and really think about what other people are saying, and not threatening to have the thread closed because you found a question confronting.


For myself, I simply don’t believe in God, and while at times I’ve played with the idea in hindsight I never really did believe. I love much of what religion offers, the ritual, drive to charity and the sense of community… but while I’ve flirted with many different ideas of a creator I can’t conceive of one that deserves worship. Whatever it is in people that allows them to give over to the idea of a divine creator, I don’t have it.

But I’m still fascinated by the religious beliefs of others… life’s rich pageant and all that. The only time I’m ever really critical of religion is when it is used as an excuse stop thinking, to stop asking difficult questions. When blasphemy is used as an excuse to stop legitimate political commentary, or when religion attempts to stop or confuse scientific discovery.

And for the record, religion has a long and proud history of expanding and protecting philosophical and scientific truth, and should be rightly proud of the important scientific work it has funded or directly undertaken. Just these days that isn’t so clear, given the prevalence of young earth and anti-evolution rubbish promoted by religious groups.

Personally I identify as an agnostic simply because I havn't heard any convincing enough arguments of any religion/spiritual concept. A theory i like is one of a kind of "simulated universe". The idea is that the universe exists entirely inside another universe; a parent universe. as a sort of analogy, our universe is a computer simulation in the parent universe, and what we percieve as "god" is the Operating System of this computer. We do not exist outside of our universe, but beings in our parent universe may manifest avatars in our universe to change and correct things. The Operating System (GodOS as i shall call it from now on) may also manifest an avatar to interact with the intelligent beings (humans or other sentients in the universe) in a less invasive way. The reason is simple. If GodOS suddenly made everyone believe something new, they would realise the change and likely panic. If it changed their memories as well it will leave other things intact from before. To ensure 100% undetectavle changes it would have to calculate the state the universe would be in if that change had been in place the whole time, which would require the spawning of a new universe simulation. This is in accordance with the many universes concept, but leaves the question: what happens to the first universe? does GodOS just shut it down and start over?

I don't think GodOS makes any efforts to actively hide from us, but when it changes something (and I believe it rarely does, only doing things to correct for extremely minor anomalies) it tries to do it in a discreet way, for the same reason as a using a human avatar.

I side with science on pretty much everything. It's a simple reason. Science proves things, religion doesn't. Religion just asks me to "trust" them. No matter how hard I try I just can't trust something that asks me to believe something I don't see as logical when I have proof of the contrary easily accessible. I am open to the idea of a Flying Spaghetti Monster type diety (One that changes everything with his noodly appendages to trick us into believing he's not changing stuff), but I think it's really unlikely and unessecary. The only situation I can concieve of that being the case in is the universe isf god's version of simcity or spore. We're a game to it. And I dont want to believe that.

On the topic of evolution and creationism, I think it's unlikely that the universe and/or the earth was created 6000 years ago. There's just WAY to much evidence to support the idea that all this stuff's been around for upteen amounts of time. I believe evolution and everything science has proof of is mostly correct, and they are simply the mechanism GodOS uses to cause things to happen. I know if I wrote a universe simulator I'd make it so there are universal laws and programs to control how things happen, based on a set of initial parameters. It means I don't have to sit there and decide what I want everything in my sub universe to do at every possible moment. That's just absurd programming.

I don't think that humans as a race are special in the grand scheme of things. The reason being that we have so many faults. I think we're just a sentient species in a mind-bogglingly large universe. I'm asymptotally close to 100% sure that there are better, more perfect species in the universe and to assume that the whole thing was made just for us is a bit vain. I just don't think we're good enough. That being said, we may be just one step on the path to creating such a species.

On the whole heaven and hell thing: I really, REALLY don't think our consciousness persists after we die. I think it's just a peculiar and unexplained phenomenon that is the result of how our brains work. That is to say, i don't believe in souls. They're a neat concept, and have been the cause of alot of nifty things in stories and video games and movies and such, but in reality? I don't think so. I honestly believe that when we die the energy that was our synapses firing or whatever is the source of our minds is just lost. Like when a program on a computer closes down. The data is still there in memory, but it's not doing anything, and will soon be recycled into new data. If I am wrong (and I sort of hope I am), then I really don't think that entrance into heaven or hell rests on such trivial things as having water poured on your head while someone says some words. If there is any criteria for where you go after you die, I believe it's based on something arbitrary, similarly to the way data is written to a hard drive. If it's not arbitraty, I honestly think GodOS would have it's own set of criteria based on how you performed in your life, based on GodOS' expectations. I also think that if you fail to live up to said expectations, you wouldn't "go to hell". That would be a waste of resources to contain a ridiculously large number of 'retired' sentients in a place of torment. It's more likely, IMO that you would cease to exist, or have your memory wiped and re-inserted into a new body to try again. All this is pure speculation, as none of it is provable since noone's made it back from being dead; at least not with their memories intact. (Note to Christians: I don't count Jesus because it is said that he ressurrected to heaven, which is where someone who is dead and good goes when they die anyways. Therefor I find it hard to count that as a ressurection)

The bottom line is I *want* to believe there is a sentient, intelligent, omnipotent being watching to make sure the universe doesn't set itself on fire, but I just don't seem much evidence for it. I'm not a faithful person, so I need proof of something before i can believe it.

Might I ask Cheese, how exactly did God go about creating Earth?

Just wondering what tools he used......