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Ok, so here's the deal.

I've been reading the DH 'dex. As old as it is, I've found something.

Assassins

"Oh leech, you're out of your mind" etc. etc.

Whatever, here's the thing.

With these, it is possible to not only kill off the Daemon Prince, but the Oblit's and Plaguemarines that so happily nestle their way into chaos lists.

Of all the choices, mine are.

1. Callidus: Basically, she pops up anywhere and allows No saves (even invul's).

2. Vindicare: The only reason he's in second is that he gets only 1 shot per-turn. Otherwise, he'd be in first.

3. Culexus: A bit risky, but what I like about it is the LD reduction and Anti-Psyker Abilities.

4. Eversor: He's only good against low-save multiple opponents. Good against Daemons though!

I had the same conclusion recently after playing against a 2 lash-prince/7 Oblit army. I'm going to go with the Callidus to first use "A Word in You Ear" to move the squad of 3 Oblits out of cover and out of coherency before the game starts, and then on the turn when she arrives she’ll bog-down/take out which even unit I'm going to have issues with later in the game.

At least, that’s my theory. Should work even better versus Tau, yet maybe not so well versus ‘Nids.

SJ

A word in your ear can be mean against 'Nids if they don't have a lot of synapse.

No grenades really hurts the assault-oriented ones. I was running the Callidus for a little while just to try her, and found myself trading her useless against the things I most wanted to kill, like Eldrad with Wraithguard, that sort of thing.

Daemon Princes also brutalize her at I5.

@Cryonicleech:

I think you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of T4 2W characters.

willydstyle wrote:@Cryonicleech:

I think you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of T4 2W characters.

I was thinking the exact same thing. They have potential but after awhile you find out they are expensive one trick ponies whose points should be spent elsewhere.

That's my asesment as well, expensive, one trick. I have seen the calidus go down in CC to almost anything, a broadside, a vet sarge marine with a fist, a high number of T3 models of any sort, whatever, she's not very good in CC, actually...

I found a nasty combo:

Combine a Calidus neuro pistol with a battle psyker squad, reduce a units LD to 4 or less, then hit them with the neuro pistol at S9 and insta kill the entire unit on 2s.

Hard to set up, but could be a game winning shot, really cool against multiwound models also!

Well, I'm going with an assassin specifically for their one trick, because it's the trick I want to use in my current GK list.

SJ

4+ Invulnerable Save won´t keep the Assassins going for very long with 2 Wounds, if your opponent seriously wants to kill a lone model. And the lack of grenades is just stupid. "A word in your ear" is still the most useful ability. Forget the old days of "one massmurderer wiping enemy units in close combat"- tactics. 5th Edition along with its changes on how Close Combat works were not kind to Assassins.

I suppose they could update Inquisitorial Assasins to be useful in 5th, with rules that benefit the whole 'assassin' thing- like being able to allocate wounds in close combat rather than having the defender do it, having offensive grenades, all having fleet of foot, etc.

I've had good luck with the eversore. I don't use him as a lone bezerker but keep in my lines and then have him charge 12" to intercept incoming assault units.

I'm a fan of the Eversor + 6 Death Cult Assassins combination myself.

Considering that this is not just one unit, but seven different units, one can take advantage of this both in assault and going into one as a counter-charger.

However...that is a lot of KP...

I'm sorry, I have to say it.

Death-Cult assasins...Cheap, and awsome.

for 40 points they make the BEST distraction, really unerves your opponent, and if they DO ignore them the they can either be really annoying by harrasing large squads (they'll die but) or you can throw them at solitary heavy support squads (like Devastators or Dark Reapers) or even a lone HQ (better gang up though).

Love the theory of killing an Avatar with one Callidus Assasin. There's a new Apoc list I'd like to try, where you can have 9 assasin. The ultimate daemon-killing army

MC

The real anti-lash unit: any troop transport.

Mount up and you have little to fear from lash.

Yea, I used to use the assassins pretty heavily in 4th, but now they really are a tad overpriced.

Callidus: Word in your Ear is still cool, especially with mitigating your opponant't reaction to you getting the first turn. The neural shredder is fun and all, but very few units have Ld <7 anymore so getting wounds usually requires a 5 or 6. Her ability to assault after DS is nice, but not too exciting since it tends to mean you can have her assault units without any support, which means she dies with the new combat allocation rules. She is still very good at rocking heavy weapons squads in the backfield though, or shaking vehicles to prevent shooting. Still, probably 10-20 points overcosted now.

Vindicare: Way overcosted in 4th, and a little less now. Hitting on 2's is cool, but wounding on 4s means you have a 50% chance of wasting that one of 5-7 shots you get in a game. The more I used him, the more I hated him. Basically he has a lot of abilities that are worth 5 points, but stacked up are not worth 100+. Give him a heavy 2 rifle and we can talk.

Cullexus: Fun but kind of silly. No powerweapon is a huge issue, making the only real benefit the Ld penalty which is not useful against fearless chaps. The gun is cool, but 12" isn't exciting. He does, however, combo really well with Death Cultists, as they don't care about their Ld, have power weapons, and can infiltrate like him. Move him and 3-6 DCs towards an enemy unit, shoot them, then charge in the DCs and watch the enemy run due to not being able to get full advantage of their attacks (allocating hits to specific DCs instead of the blob leads to sub-optimal wound allocation efficiency).

Eversor: Probably still the best assassin, as he is cheap, has a mess of power weapon attacks, and can wound high T baddies easier than most. One thing to ask yourself is "Does my list offer a melee IC with T4 W2 and a mess of power attacks for 90 odd points? If so, is it better?" The answer might be yes, but then it probably won't be in the Elites section. Again, the Eversor combos well with DC assassins for a infiltrating blob of "OMG POWER WEAPONS!"

All that said, I don't use assassins too much anymore. Not being able to wipe a kill zone and the new charge reaction move really makes it hard for a model with a 4+ save and two wounds to live through a round of combat against a moderately sized squad, especially without grenades and the possibility of throwing a few 1's and 2's to hit. The DCs can make nifty little counter assault squads though I think, mixed with more specialized assassins for special ops.

Cullexus: has the most going for him in IG army and is Stupidly powerful in Apocalypse. Stick him in a and follow him with 2 full squads of Psyker battle squads and the Inquisitor lord. He's now spitting out 21 shots a turn at Str:5 AP:1 ...
Total cost 388 pts and will remove most targets (which will then run away because they're LD 7).

In Apocalypse sit him in a storm lord with as many Psyker as possible (you may also want to take more then one Cullexus) and then just drive up and mow down every one.

Well, two problems with your plan Tri.
The first, and most minor, is that the range on the Animus Speculum is only 12". Not bad for holding off assaulting troops, but not much of a danger zone.
The second and most crippling is the fact that assassins can not ever ride in transports, so he can only walk beside the storm lord.

Still, your plan would be great for close firesupport for the tank

completely forgot about that rule still he could hide behind said tank and jump out when within 12"

Wehrkind wrote:Well, two problems with your plan Tri.
The first, and most minor, is that the range on the Animus Speculum is only 12". Not bad for holding off assaulting troops, but not much of a danger zone.
The second and most crippling is the fact that assassins can not ever ride in transports, so he can only walk beside the storm lord.

Still, your plan would be great for close firesupport for the tank

Don't forget that the rules for the PBS also specify that they count as one psyker.

Don't forget that the rules for the PBS also specify that they count as one psyker.

The Psychic Choir rule only counts then as one psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power.

They all have the Psyker special rule except the Overseer.

The answer in Apocalypse is: take an Assassin formation of Cullexus' and a Stormlord full of battle psykers. Yep, its only 12 inches, but that is a hell of a lot of attacks!

SJ

Volkan wrote:

Don't forget that the rules for the PBS also specify that they count as one psyker.

The Psychic Choir rule only counts then as one psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power.

They all have the Psyker special rule except the Overseer.

Could you quote for me where it says that every model in the squad (other than the overseer) is a psyker, please?

If they only counted as 1 psyker then they would only take a single perils of the warp attackfor the squad when the overseer is dead, however every model takes one individually.

Under their powers they are noted as "the Psykers" instead of "the psyker squad".

And with Special rules: Psyker (sanctioned psykers only).

Nowhere does it specifically state that they count as one psyker for anything but the purposes of using a psychic power.

Can you show me the rules that state that they only count as 1 psyker for the purposes of other units and rules interacting with them?

I just wanted a quote so I could evaluate the wording myself, as I don't have the codex.

Ah my bad

"Phychic Choir: The Psyker Battle squad is treated as a single psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power. The controlling player may measure range and line of sight from and Sanctioned Psyker model when resolving psychic powers."

jeffersonian000 wrote:The answer in Apocalypse is: take an Assassin formation of Cullexus' and a Stormlord full of battle psykers. Yep, its only 12 inches, but that is a hell of a lot of attacks!

SJ

Range 12" Strength 5 AP 1 Assault 38 or
times 6 = 228 (^_^)

Not to mention the special rule you get for having these guys ...

Culexus Temple: The presence of a single Culexus Assassin causes a mighty disturbance in the ebb and flow of the Warp.
When a group of them are present in the same area, their powers are merged; echoing, reverberating and resonating in a
manner crippling to psykers in the vicinity. The range of the ‘Psychic Abomination’ special rule is increased by 6” for each
assassin in the Execution Force.

that's 42" from each guy .... Eldrads gona cry

.... total points cost 1700pts

Yea having a half dozen of the buggers is a good time, though is Psychic Abomination the ability that makes psykers run, or the one that gives 7 Ld?

its the one that makes psykers runaway... which is why we lock them in the storm lord so they can't run away

Actually, that would be 6 range 12", S5, AP1, Assault 42 attacks if all of the Culexus' are within 12" of a Stormlord full of Battle Psykers. And if evenly spaced around the Stormlord, they would create a flat Psychic Abomination bubble 37" high and nearly 96" across.

Too bad 3 good hits from a Strength D weapon would wipe them out.

SJ