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I would like your opinion on whether I should make a new Necron model. It will be based on the Immortal and will have ten man squads. They will have Gauss flamers, S5 AP2, this is because they emit a high power shot to blow anything away. the normal Gauss Blaster can also be shot, so it is like focussed and dispersed. in the assault phase they may also throw a special 'grenade'. This can be thrown 18" and has a large blast at S4 AP2, this has a special rule where it blows any infantry under it to the edge of the template, regardless of unit coherensy, if they are not in unit coherensy they automatically (regardless of rules) fall back to their deployment zone at which they will regroup and restart their advance. The only problem is I don't have a clue about how many points they should be. Please give me feedback, criticisms allowed!!!!

Now I don't know an awful lot about game balance or any of that stuff, but those stats scream "overpowered" to me.

You've also got what looks suspiciously like a shooting attack in the assault phase - and does each model get to fire one? That's 10 large AP2 blasts!

I'd drop the AP values to start off with - the rest I leave to more knowledgeable contributors.

OK, I'll take it to AP3 or 4. and yes all 10 do get to fire but only in the shooting phase and at the same position, but they may scatter.

This should probably be under Proposed Rules...

Yeah but it isn't really a rule.

That description does not feel very 'necron'.
I'm not a fan of "Gauss Flamers" for that reason.
Same with the "Grenade" option.
It doesn't really fit with their imagery.
Plus AP 2 weapons... not so much.

The weapon stats here are excessive. No squad should have 10 AP2 flamers AND 10 AP2 large blasts that can both be used in the same turn. I would really read over the rules in the rulebook and a few different codices to get a better understanding of balance here.

Also, this thread should go under proposed rules, which is a forum that is meant to be used for all proposed changes to the existing codex and rulesets.

As it is here, these models would be prohibitively expensive, and I can't think of anyway who would be willing to play against them regardless. You'll find that while it is fun to make up your own datasheets for units, you will only get to apply them in Apoc games, and even then not often.

Furthermore, the idea of knockback or forcing units out of coherency is so completely game changing that those rules alone would render these 'models' unusable.

If you really wants a points value, though, based on the points values of overpowered units that actually exist, I would call these guys about 80-100 pts per model, with 5 models minimum in the squad.

The Monolith has a Large Blast Template that isn't even AP2. The biggest tank in the game (not counting Apoc) can't even match the AP value of your grenades.

There is already an 'out-of-coherency/must-regroup mechanic' --- no need to write another one.

A unit full of flamers with S5AP2 -- That seems a little ridiculous to me, I envision something like this:

The first few guys that can get into flamer range without putting friendly models under the template get their shots off. Everything dies, literally you would be killing bucketfulls of Terminators with one volley. No Cover Saves and no regular armor saves means almost anything in range is getting dead. Anything not in 8" flamer range is getting a stack of overpowered grenades plopped down on their junk. So if they somehow didn't die in the flamergasm they are dead now, or else scattering and spending all day regrouping.

So what I am getting at is, you are trying to invent a unit that is unrealistically good, you have to use some balance in there somehow:
Reduce unit Size -- Think a unit of Walkers from another army, like a Wraithlord but smaller, maybe 3 max in a unit.
Limit Flamer STR and/or AP - model it after a Heavy Flamer - STR5 AP4 OR make it an Assault Weapon Maybe Assault 2 - STR5 AP3 18"
Get rid of the Grenade idea, its not very 'Necron'. Make it a small blast weapon somehow, reduce the AP.

Here is the unit I envision:
Necron Collosus?
76 Pts + Weapon choices
1-3 per unit
Str6 T6 3+Sv 2W 2A I2 Ld10 WS2 BS4

Slow and Purposeful
Necron

Weapons- There could be a choice of 2 weapons per model
1. Maybe a cc Power weapon (6 pts) or Warscythe (12 pts)
2. Gauss Flamer - Str5 Ap4 - Gauss Special Rule (8 pts)
3. Heavy Gauss Cannon - The same as on a H. Destroyer - (24 pts)
4. Gauss Cannon - Same as a Destroyer - (18 pts)
5. Gauss Blaster - Same as Immortals (10 pts)
6. Particle Projector - Like the Staff of Light/Tomb Spyder (12 pts)

I would love to see some sort of point-balanced version of this where you could customize for CC, High Power, High Volume, etc...

Plus, a big lumbering robot 2ce the size of an immortal seems like it would be pretty cool, something like a Necronized Wraithlord or Crisis suit. Maybe even use it in a HQ capacity and give it wargear...

This is starting to sound pretty 'un-necron'...

T6 is the *only* thing I don't like about suggestion. Even Daemon Princes are T5, and Greater Daemons are only T6. A big Necron would certainly look cool.

Or a Necron Titan that's an even bigger Necron...

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:T6 is the *only* thing I don't like about suggestion. Even Daemon Princes are T5, and Greater Daemons are only T6. A big Necron would certainly look cool.

Destroyer lord is T6 and Immortals/Destroyers are 5. so 6 is not Completely crazy. I would go ahead and increase their points and make them MC that way they can shoot 2 guns, but more importantly your T6 model is going to have to work to get a cover save.

Neil

Isn't this the guy who used his Grey Knights with wargear illegally in a tournament because he couldn't completely fill his list's points EVEN THOUGH he could fill the right points value with his necrons... Yeah...

I don't really need to comment on this... A flamer template of any sort should never be higher AP than 4. A grenade should only be used how it is said in the 40k rulebook, against a tank when actually used in combat except for assault/defensive use. Seriously, this is a joke.

Lorgar's_Blessed:

We already established the fact that the original specs were a bit unrealistic and unbalanced. So then we all talked about how he could maybe trim things down to balance them (I assume so he could try some new ideas in his own private world of 40k).

And then you showed up and added nothing to the conversation.

So that's where we are now.

Okay, monstrous creature, WS5, BS4, S7, T7, I5, W3, A4, Sv3+, carries two gauss flamers, S5, AP4, gauss grenades, S3, AP4?, large blast, can carry any 2 of the following weapon on his shoulders:

Heavy Gauss Cannon: 25pts
Gauss Cannon: 20pts
Gauss Blaster: 5pts

If twin linked + 10 to the existing point value.

CC weapons:

Warsythe: 15pts
Staff of Light: 5pts

Not forgetting they have built in weapons. Although it may fire 3 weapons per turn.

May have 3 in a unit, thinking about weak vehicle, like war walker, sentinal?

Points around 60 or 70 to start off with.

Any criticisms now. They are very helpful.

Ok, now I realize you must be joking.

The monstrosity you just spec'ed out is underpriced by at least half at the points you suggest. Even if you did price it right, here are things that bother me and I'm sure plenty of other people.

High I and WS are not things that Necrons are known for.
Your Str and T values are off the charts, almost C'Tan worthy
Fire 3 Weapons - You are trying to change the dynamics of the game, stick to the 2 that MCs are allowed
Grenades - stop trying to make grenades for Necrons, its very 'un-Necron' - also, stop trying to change the grenade dynamics for WH40k - they work like Lorgar stated, in assault, and offensive or defensive, etc...

**If you want to give them a Large Blast Template give them a Gauss Grenade Launcher or something (P.S. I still hate the idea of Necrons lobbing anything at anyone, if its not flaying skin off your face its not Gauss...)***

The flamers should be replaced by the additional weapons if desired, not added onto. Nothing with Wounds should be packing that many weapons (5 possible?)...

Basically you just created something like a 200 point Carnifex, but with better weapons, BS, I, WS, A, pretty much the only advantage a Carnifex would have over this beast is a 2+ Armor Save and S10. Compare the two and you'll see that you are giving too much for too few points, and not just by a little bit, you are half-priced at best...

Picture this thing you imagine decked out with a Warscythe and a Gauss Flamer. I would expect something like that to cost 170-180 points easy. You have it costing 75-85...

phantommaster wrote:I would like your opinion on whether I should make a new Necron model. It will be based on the Immortal and will have ten man squads. They will have Gauss flamers, S5 AP2, this is because they emit a high power shot to blow anything away. the normal Gauss Blaster can also be shot, so it is like focussed and dispersed. in the assault phase they may also throw a special 'grenade'. This can be thrown 18" and has a large blast at S4 AP2, this has a special rule where it blows any infantry under it to the edge of the template, regardless of unit coherensy, if they are not in unit coherensy they automatically (regardless of rules) fall back to their deployment zone at which they will regroup and restart their advance. The only problem is I don't have a clue about how many points they should be. Please give me feedback, criticisms allowed!!!!

Not to be a jerk, and this is only my personal opinion, but I don't like the idea of any of it, nothing in this even fits the necron fluff, and it's really over powered.

phantommaster wrote:I would like your opinion on whether I should make a new Necron model. It will be based on the Immortal and will have ten man squads. They will have Gauss flamers, S5 AP2, this is because they emit a high power shot to blow anything away. the normal Gauss Blaster can also be shot, so it is like focussed and dispersed. in the assault phase they may also throw a special 'grenade'. This can be thrown 18" and has a large blast at S4 AP2, this has a special rule where it blows any infantry under it to the edge of the template, regardless of unit coherensy, if they are not in unit coherensy they automatically (regardless of rules) fall back to their deployment zone at which they will regroup and restart their advance. The only problem is I don't have a clue about how many points they should be. Please give me feedback, criticisms allowed!!!!

being a necron player, i would have to say you are not the only one who has come up with some designs for new necrons, i had some ideas once before as well, i thought they were ok, very nearly made the model for them, there was gonna be the models for the other 2 C`tan gods, the outsider and the void dragon, i even had rules written up for those, and some higher ranking versions of wraiths, pariahs and immortals, like space marine sergeants to space marine squads, keep going, it sounds awesome...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

phantommaster wrote:Okay, monstrous creature, WS5, BS4, S7, T7, I5, W3, A4, Sv3+, carries two gauss flamers, S5, AP4, gauss grenades, S3, AP4?, large blast, can carry any 2 of the following weapon on his shoulders:

Heavy Gauss Cannon: 25pts
Gauss Cannon: 20pts
Gauss Blaster: 5pts

If twin linked + 10 to the existing point value.

CC weapons:

Warsythe: 15pts
Staff of Light: 5pts

Not forgetting they have built in weapons. Although it may fire 3 weapons per turn.

May have 3 in a unit, thinking about weak vehicle, like war walker, sentinal?

Points around 60 or 70 to start off with.

Any criticisms now. They are very helpful.

i like the sound of this, is there a name for this creature of obvious power, you could try and lessen it down and make it into the tomb stalker thing that is mentioned on wikipedia when you go to the necrons, but yeah, if not, then you would have to make it into something that can actually handle that kind of firepower by the way, my last post was actually in regard to the first thing you posted

Right, you want a vehicle, 200 starter points. I'm going to base this on an eldar wraithlord. Twin linked gauss flamers S5, AP4. These are going to be made out of warscythes. So the built in blaster will be the flamer. They are then going to count as a normal warscythe.

Then can carry any 2 of the following weapon on his shoulders:

Heavy Gauss Cannon: 35pts
Gauss Cannon: 20pts
Gauss Blaster: 5pts

If twin linked + 10 to the existing point value.

Armour, it uses the monoliths armour rules, (because it is living metal) then 12 all round?

Also, how many weapons can it shoot per turn now?

If you are going to model it after a Walker, then you should use the Walker shooting rules in the main rule book. I'm at work so I can't verify that at this time. If you are giving it an armor value then you would be modelling it after the Space Marine Dreadnought, for example, rather than the Wraithlord. 200 points is too much for a Walker, especially for the base configuration.

Hate being a kill joy but this ain't very Necron at all. Agree ditch the grenades and in my opion anything that has to do with a flamer template.

Grenades are ditched but not sure about what to do about walker rules,but it'll be Necron all right, I'm going to use the wraithlord kit because it is quite skeletal, then loads of necron parts, not too sure about the head though, any suggestions?

I like your ideas, but your general plan seems flawed. Necrons don't really seem to be the type of army that walkers would fit into very well. However, a giant Necron foot soldier would be an amazing sight. I think the whole walker with flamers idea however is out of place in a Necron force. Necrons just don't seem to strike fear into opponents when they have grenades or flamers, or anything like that.

While a flamer is definitely not Necron fluff, you can do a "count as" wide dispersion beam of gauss. It spreads out rather than having a concentrated beam. It just uses the flame template to demonstrate how it spreads out.

Perhaps something like

Gauss dispersion blaster Assault 1, template, S5 AP4.

I don't see why you can't rend flesh AOE style.

edit: And you should probably stick to a MC over a walker.

maybe something like....

ws 2 bs 4 s5 t6 w2 I2 a2 ld10 sv3+

Comes stock maybe 65 pts a peice with a CCW and GDB.

toss on your weapon options, and put them in groups of 1-3 or 3-5.

When making your own units for an existing army, its probably a good idea to keep the same strengths and weaknesses. That way you're not just removing their weakness - that leads to an OP unit in context.

Yeh i agree with the wide dispertion, all armies should have template weapons, this one should be S6 AP4 just because necron weap's in the fluff are superior to most others in some way - so this is their heavy flamer. As for the stats ... NO, your out of your mind? i dont know old you are but i guess your just a kid, thing is i was like you once, wanted to create some mega unit for my army, I jut figured id have to pay lots of points though.

You have to compare it to other units in the game. (points wise) you mentioned base of 60-70. 65 gets you a heavy destroyer...

If it was me I would base on a dreadnought, it has a two guass destroyer arms, which may be fired with either of the three profiles, and count as DCCW 's

1 - guass cannon, 2 - heavy guass cannon, 3 - partical projecter or as guass dispertion (s6, ap4 template) no silly grenades. no warscythes (their for the lords and the 'perfect' pariahs.)

make it av 12 12 12 with living metal ws4 bs4 s6(10) I2 A1(2 for 2 dccw's)

possibly fitted with repair function, each movement phase may attempt to repair either one weap destroyed/immobilized, instead of moving.

I think this is all fluffy, just the matter of cost, ok its extremly versatile but not as good in combat (I2) like other necrons, its harder than your usual dread, and its weaponry is devastating... i think either 180 ish, or to make it alot more realistic, just the necron dread who gets to choose to build in a heavy guass/guass cannon/pp in each arm i think that would work alot better. then youd pay per weapon.

thats just my take. id love a big necron dread.