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Due to the realization that the current chaos codex doesn't even mention quite a few chapters, among them one of the coolest, i decided to brew up a special character for the Iron Warriors, since they receive almost no love. I still need a points value for him.

Raylor The Iron-Skulled
WS:6 BS:5 S:4(8) T:4 W:4 I:4 A:3(4) Ld10 Sv2+

Wargear:
Terminator Armor
The Tyrannical Fists.The Tyrannical Fists are a Pair of chainfists (bonus already included in profile), with a pair of Storm Bolters integrated in to them. They may fire together as a Twin Linked storm bolter.

Special Rules:
Eternal Warrior
Stubborn
Preferred Enemy: Space Marines (specifically of the Imperial Fists chapter)

Iron Within! Iron Without!
Any army containing Raylor the Iron-Skulled may not take any Icons of Chaos, instead, for 45 points, they may take and Icon of the Iron warriors, that gives them +1BS
Furthermore, Any army containing Raylor may take Chaos Vindicators as Fast Attack choices as well as Heavy Support Choices.

Siege Masters:
At the Beginning of the Game, After both sides have deployed, Any army containing Raylor the Iron-Skulled may choose to fire All Friendly Vindicators on the field. If they choose to do this, the Vindicators may not move next turn, but they may still fire.

I really like the idea of this guy.

Siege Masters is quite interesting, midigated somewhat by the short range of Demolisher Cannons. On the other hand it's also an increadibly powerful ability. You could consider droping it to 1 Vindicator, otherwise it has to cost him a fair amount of points.

Iron Within, Iron Without.
+1 BS is really powerful. But no Icons is also a pritty heavy penalty. Of course it's now making your army list fight between Vindicators & troops

Stats & Wargear: All works well for me. Did you think of giving him a gun to use that BS6 on?

I'm not really sure about Pts eather, but Equiped Lord +75 or +100pts for the special rules seems reasonable off the top of my head

Don't forget the arbitrary tax that you should add to all homebrew rules (for no apparent reason).


Quick question - do you pay for the +1BS? And if the Chainfists are included in his profile, why is he A3 rather than A4? Don't Chaos Lords have A3 base, and with +1A for having 2CCWs he'd be A4, no?

My only real concern though is the 'fire the Vindis!' rule - how often are you in range at the start of the game?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't forget the arbitrary tax that you should add to all homebrew rules (for no apparent reason).

We've been through that, we're never going to agree one that, don't turn this thread into an argument.

Quick question - do you pay for the +1BS? And if the Chainfists are included in his profile, why is he A3 rather than A4? Don't Chaos Lords have A3 base, and with +1A for having 2CCWs he'd be A4, no?

You're right, typo

My only real concern though is the 'fire the Vindis!' rule - how often are you in range at the start of the game?

Rarely. You get some free shots at enemy infiltrators or scouts (up to 6 if you want to pay for that many vindis) or if you both deployed right up to the start of your deployment, on a small Table.


I updated his wargear to give him a ranged weapon, as well as raised the price of the Iron Warriors Icon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Pricing
Lord with Terminator Armor and two lightning claws is 130 points.
+20 for the bonuses to his statline
+10 for the Chainfists instead of lightning claws
+10 for the Storm Bolters.

Bring him to 170.

+30 for his Iron Within!
+20 for Siege Masters
+30 for Eternal Warrior and Preferred Enemy.

I'd prefer him to be cheaper, so I think I'll bring him down to base Chaos Lord stats.
Putting him at 230 points.

Sound Fair?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't forget the arbitrary tax that you should add to all homebrew rules (for no apparent reason).

Sigh.
270 points.

That's how much it would cost me, BY GAMES WORKSHOP RULES, to walk up to the table with a Siege Breaker. What's a Siege Breaker, you may ask? It's a Space Marine (meaning BS 4) tank, with 14 armor all around, a transport capacity of 12, two twin-linked lascannons, a twin-linked heavy bolter, and smoke launchers.
Does that stat-line sound familiar? It should. That's the stats of a 250 point Land Raider. Whoops, I lied. A Land Raider lets you charge after disembark. A land raider has searchlights. A land raider has Power of the Machine Spirit.

If you walk up to the table with something you made yourself, you have to pay a bit more for it. It's so your opponent can feel safe letting it on, knowing that you haven't made a horrible monstrosity. Now, if my roommate walks up to me and asks if he can field this model, I'm cool without the "tax". If your character has been playtested, and you wound up taking those 15 points off, tell your opponent that. Tell him that it's been playtested.

NO one is going to take "I thought really hard, tried some math, and did my best to balance it." They'll be much happier with "He's deliberately over-costed until we work out what seems fairest." Consider the tax the training wheels of your custom character.

(My apologies if this came off too strong/angry, HBMC, but I did spend several paragraphs giving you the apparent reason the last time you brought it up. You seem to be arguing "I can re-write the rules how I want, and as long as I try, it should cost the same." But that ignores the fact that you are stretching the rules, and unexpected synergy. As I pointed out, a gun's worth more in the hands of an SM than an Ork.)

On to business.

Canonness Rory wrote:Due to the realization that the current chaos codex doesn't even mention quite a few chapters, among them one of the coolest, i decided to brew up a special character for the Iron Warriors, since they receive almost no love. I still need a points value for him.

Raylor The Iron-Skulled
WS:6 BS:6 S:5 T:4 W:4 I:4 A:4 Ld10 Sv2+

Wargear:
Terminator Armor
The Tyrannical Fists.The Tyrannical Fists are a Pair of chainfists (bonus already included in profile), with a pair of Storm Bolters integrated in to them. They may fire together as a Twin Linked storm bolter.

Special Rules:
Eternal Warrior
Preferred Enemy: Space Marines (specifically of the Imperial Fists chapter)

Hmm. Minor stat-line oddities. HBMC asked if he paid for the BS. I'm more interested in the Strength and Wound. I'd also like to know why he lost initiative. This guy's fearless, I assume, so it's not like a sweeping advance is in his future, but it still confuses me.
Anywho, base lord 90 points. +1 BS...I was going to say irrelevant, but it appears the statline was edited as I picked it up. Now...still kind of meh. So, if he rolls a 1, he re-rolls, and if it's not 6, he can re-roll the entire thing? that's a shift from 35/36 chance to miss (twinlinked with BS 5) to 1271/1296 (twin-linked BS6) that's basically a +0.8% increase. (97.2% chance to 98.07%)
So, I'd still not even give this a cost for him. So I'd have it be +1S, +1 W. I'd rate these at about 25-30 points. Normally, I wouldn't go so high, but on a model carrying chainfists, +1 strength is big. Now he's str 10 power (+2d6 versus armor) instead of S8.

Termie armor is a flat 30 points. Two chainfists. I'd say 25-30 again. I see your price, and I see where you're getting it from, but the Lightning claw option assumed you were losing a ranged weapon. So here you should be paying the cost of 2 single chainfists. (well, maybe not quite. There's the diminishing returns.)

Storm bolter, I'll say 10. I'd have opposed this, as the Chaos Space Marines don't have storm bolters, but it's two guns firing as one.


Eternal warrior's another biggie. It makes this guy, with his 4 wounds, almost as un-killable as Marneus Calgar. Let's say 15-20.
Preferred enemy...10 to 15. Against Space marines, if he isn't going after them, he's facing powerfists too. They're going to get to hurt him, it's just a matter of how many of them he gets to hurt.

So, for this much, I'm looking at 205 points. (90+25(stats)+30(armor)+25(chainfists)+10(Storm)+15 (EW)+10)
That's 5 more than your price.

Canonness Rory wrote:
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Any army containing Raylor the Iron-Skulled may not take any Icons of Chaos, instead, for 45 points, they may take and Icon of the Iron warriors, that gives them +1BS
Furthermore, Any army containing Raylor may take Chaos Vindicators as Fast Attack choices as well as Heavy Support Choices.

Siege Masters:
At the Beginning of the Game, After both sides have deployed, Any army containing Raylor the Iron-Skulled may choose to fire All Friendly Vindicators on the field. If they choose to do this, the Vindicators may not move next turn, but they may still fire.

Alright, that looks fair, and he certainly does need playtesting, as, like you pointed out, for 20-30 points more Calgar Destroys him without question, but Raylor rips vehicles far better, and BS5 CSM is pretty scary, even for a 40 points Icon.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:If you walk up to the table with something you made yourself, you have to pay a bit more for it.

No, you don't, because units should cost what they are worth. If you have invented something and correctly playtested it, you shouldn't need an arbitrary increases in cost because the unit should be balanced. If the unit is not balanced, then you've made a mistake, and upping its points isn't going to fix that. To put it another way:

Points are not the great leveller

Our group has been writing Warhammer 40,000 Revisited since before 4th Ed came out, so we know how to test things and test things and test things and one key thing you learn is that points do not always balance things, or, more accurately, you can't just keep upping the points on things that are too powerful and expect them to become 'balanced'. By the same token, units that are crap just can't have their points reduced and reduced until they become useful. Points do not always balance the game, and arbitrary taxes (either way, be it up or down) won't change that.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:(My apologies if this came off too strong/angry, HBMC,

I prefer it when people are blunt. Sugar-coating things solves nothing and simply delays one's point.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:You seem to be arguing "I can re-write the rules how I want, and as long as I try, it should cost the same." But that ignores the fact that you are stretching the rules, and unexpected synergy. As I pointed out, a gun's worth more in the hands of an SM than an Ork.)

But that's not what I'm saying at all. You can't make something better and make it cost the same. I'll say it again:

Things should cost what they are worth.

If I make an AV14/14/14 fast vehicle with 10 TL-BS5 Lascannons, I should pay the necessary points for that worth or, if it want it to be cheap, reduce its power so that it worth a lesser cost (remove fast, reduce it's lascannons by 50% or 75%, lessen the armour, or a combination of those). What I am completely and utterly against is the inclusion of "penalties" just because they are custom rules.

That is bad rules design.

Arbitrary price increases or even discounts, as I just said, do not lead to balance. In fact, they specifically lead to imbalance. If something you've made is worth 100 points, you pay 100 points for it, you don't pay 115 because you made it your self. If you have tested your 100 point unit and find out that, really, it's worth 115 points then (and only then) do you put its price up. As I said in the previous thread, when you create a points value you do one of two things (and often do both):

1. Gut feeling - What do you think it's worth. It's a T6 model with and S5 AP3 gun that fires 3 shots a turn, comes in squads of 10, but it's BS2 and has a 6+SV... hmm... we'll start with 18 points. See how that goes. Then you test, and see where to go from there.
2. Benchmarking - This kills X amount of Marines/Guardsmen, and weapon Y in Codex Z kills slightly less than my weapon, therefore my weapon is worth slightly more than weapon y. Then you test, and see where to go from there.

And a weapon in the hands of a Marine isn't always worth more than a weapon in the hands of an Ork because you cannot look at units in a vacuum. Take a Loota. It's a great example.

You stick a Deffgun or whatever they're called in the hands of a Marine compared to a BS2 Ork. Easy. It's more effective on a Marine. Should cost more right? Well... no. See a Marine comes in smaller squads, his base cost is higher than that of a basic Ork - almost 3 times as much. The Ork has the Mob rule. The Marine also has access to lots of shooty weapons and doesn't really need the Deffgun. The Orks though beneift greatly from the Deffgun as it's a fantastic 'general' weapon - in fact, nothing else the Orks have can really do what a Deffgun can do, it's an Autocannon on steroids! The Marine does't need a big S7 gun really, but the Orks have more need of it because no other unit does what it does. The Marines are more accurate and therefore more efficient with it, but the Orks get more shots putting inefficiancy aside in favour of the Law of Averages. Really it's worth about the same no matter who's hands its in.

Sure, it's not always that cut and dry - Plasma Gun is not worth as much in the hands of a Guardsmen vs the hands of a Marine (BS3 Sv5+ vs BS4 Sv3+) - no question (even if GW doesn't seem to get that), but you cannot compare things in a vacuum, you must benchmark units, you have to test things before you can pull accurate points values out of thin air and you cannot - cannot - say that 'taxing' so-called custom rules is good rules design. Even if you place your 'gut feeling' slightly higher because you're not sure just how powerful it might be, that's fine - as long as you bring the price back down if you see it's not all that powerful - but you don't arbitrarily add points just because you made it up.

Get it now?

I believe, (and hopefully after this we can stop derailing threads we walk into) that I have found the core problem of our disagreement:
The Tax is not for us.

The tax is there solely for your opponent's sake. It's not meant to "balance" the fact that you made your own rules, it's there so that your opponent can feel better.
If you were to play a game against me, and say "I came up with this unit/model I want to try", I'm not going to say"alright, slap some unnecessary points on it and let's go." I know how much you care about balancing what you make. But imagine if you were in a store in Houston, Texas (first random place I could think of) the other guy isn't going to know you. If you've had time, tell the guy you've play-tested it against X opponents, and modified accordingly.

We're not saying that you should ALWAYS cost units higher if you make them, though I can see how my statements come off as such, I'm saying always give yourself a bit of a buffer. What if your gut instinct was wrong? Some minor aspect of the guy turns out to be far better than you thought. Your opponent is going to be happier hearing you had a safety net built-in.

Yes, after playtesting and so forth, if the guy doesn't need the points, get rid of them. But I don't have time to playtest every character Dakka Dakka puts up in a week. I doubt most of us do. SO we remind people to make a bit of a buffer, to start out.

Essentially, your last paragraph is right on. I argue have the buffer to begin with, you argue stick with what seems fair.

(There are other arguments (ie, it has nothing to do with rules design) and so forth, but that's how I view the issue.)

For a good example of how we're in (At least some) agreement, note how I was about to price up Canonness's character, and then priced it down. As you say, models aren't in a vacuum.

Well, as an aside, I wouldn't use anything custom against someone I didn't know for that exact reason - if they lose they're going to blame me and the custom unit. I'd only use a custom unit against someone that:

1. I knew.
2. That knew it was coming.

Certainly not going to show up at a FLGS and go "Ok, I've made up this Titan, and I'm repping it with a toy Star Wars AT-AT walker - it's 400 points, so its balanced, now let's play!". I don't think anyone would play me then.

Another thread successfully derailed by HMBC and his incredible talent to take issue with ridiculously trivial things.

*applause* nicely done, maybe the next thread you post in will be even LESS on topic and civil.

AllWillFall2Me and I have been quite civil to one another - we had a hearty, healthy and honest discussion/debate, came to see each other's points, and found out that really we agree on most things.

I fail to see how this is bad?

And I already commented on your character in my first post. And AllWillFall2Me proceeded to keep commenting on it as well, so there were in fact two discussions taking place simultaneously. Was that too much for you to handle?

I'll say that the thread derail is probably more my fault, if you look at it. H.B.M.C had his comment, and proceeded to analyze your character. I made a rebuttal, thus actually starting the derail, while also analyzing the character.

Sadly, we both then had nothing more to contribute to the character. (I'd try playtesting him, but the only Chaos payer I know has yet to purchase Vindicators. Curse our college-induced poverty.)

Though, I did just remember: While I'm fine with it, "Iron Within, Iron Without" seems a little weird. Why exactly does this catchphrase epitomize the Iron Warriors' greater skill with weaponry? With a name like that, I'd imagine Stubborn or something.
As I said, it works, I just remembered that the first time I saw it, I was a little befuddled.

Perhaps with the coming of Planet Strike, a more defensive bent on 'Iron Within, Iron Without' would be better? In the real Chaos Codex they had Siege Masters, which wasn't at all useful, but could be with Planet Strike (or a similar such rule for defending or assaulting fortifications).

AllWillFall2Me wrote:Though, I did just remember: While I'm fine with it, "Iron Within, Iron Without" seems a little weird. Why exactly does this catchphrase epitomize the Iron Warriors' greater skill with weaponry? With a name like that, I'd imagine Stubborn or something.

I believe "Iron Within, Iron without" is the IRON HANDS catchphrase, not the IRON WARRIORS, but I could be wrong. Also, you're right it doesn't exactly sound like something that makes you more skilled with weapons, but rather more stalwart and resolute, like Iron.

Also, the I4 is a waste and hardly a "detriment" if the guy has a chainfist, which strikes last anyway. If you are trying to claim a points discount because he is I4, that's kinda lame.

whitedragon wrote:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:Though, I did just remember: While I'm fine with it, "Iron Within, Iron Without" seems a little weird. Why exactly does this catchphrase epitomize the Iron Warriors' greater skill with weaponry? With a name like that, I'd imagine Stubborn or something.

I believe "Iron Within, Iron without" is the IRON HANDS catchphrase, not the IRON WARRIORS, but I could be wrong. Also, you're right it doesn't exactly sound like something that makes you more skilled with weapons, but rather more stalwart and resolute, like Iron.

Also, the I4 is a waste and hardly a "detriment" if the guy has a chainfist, which strikes last anyway. If you are trying to claim a points discount because he is I4, that's kinda lame.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Warriors
"Battle Cry: Iron Within, Iron Without!"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands
"Battle Cry:The Flesh Is Weak!"

Iron Within making them more skilled in weapons is there because they are ranged specialists, and seeing as how
a.) +1 Toughness is taken
b.) Invuln save increase is taken
c.) a whole army of 2+ armor saves running around would be wildly overpowered, or way too expensive to take.
d.) Same with adding vehicle armor.
e.) Morale effect is taken
I figured it would be better to make them better at shooting.

I threw him at I4 because I knew it didn't matter what init he was.