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Regardless, I've done some thinking about the list, and basically come up with a "core" list to expand from, based on the missions we're expected to play.


HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with AT
Librarian (100): Gate of Infinity, Null Zone.


ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR


TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2265 pts, 52 models, 3/6 Scoring, 15 KP, 12 Meltas, 5 h/flamers and 3 1-shot meltas


Basically, I decided that either the Sternguard or GKT needed to go - way too many shiny things and rules to keep track of. I've not played with either of them before, and trying to run vulnerable units like that is probably a poor idea. I'm not against running both if I can get the practice in, though.

I think that besides the Librarian, Vindicator and the weapon choices of the tactical squads, this will be the basic "framework" that just about every Salamanders player will bring. Thus I'll ignore explaining my thought process behind them, and instead go from there. I'm not set on their numbers, but it's going to require a good point to move them.

The librarian acts as my ace in the hole. He tips the balance in favor of my AT in the mirror, or against other assault units. He also can drastically improve my shooting against Chaos Daemons and Eldar. His hood allows me to shut down PBS and all the other powers running rampant. He does not sync well at all with the GKT - basically, if the GKT come in, he goes out. Also, he is a vulnerable HQ. If it turns out that HQ's are worth 3 KP again this year, he probably gets cut, and the GKT come in to fill his place.

Tactical squad armaments, namely triple melta. These I'm not sold on. 30 points on three shots (the combis) seem like a lot, especially consider the squad is already throwing a TL-melta shot. I can see the advantage of the flamer, especially with the heavy IG field - but honestly, it seems like overkill with 5 heavy flamers and 4 flamestorm cannons. Meltas can be pressed into service killing infantry, and along with massed bolter fire and assault, can do an okay job. Especially considering the tactical squads might be on their own chasing down objectives, I'd rather they be able to pop any opposing vehicles coming their way.

The Vindicator seems to be a popular choice these days, and I think he'll serve a strong "threat presence" in this army. Considering my heavy melta count and the flamers/cannons of other troops, I don't really rely on him to do anything, meaning anything he does will be pure gravy. He draws fire, and I frankly don't care if he's destroyed, especially considering that fire should probably have been directed at the land raiders instead.


From here, the list can go a few ways.

If it ends up that HQ are worth extra, the librarian gets the axe, one of the AT gets an upgrade to GKT w/ hood, and I spend the rest of the points elsewhere.

If troops are critical, I put in another tactical squad or a scout squad with a storm. I'm not really sure what this tac squad should look like - it seems overkill to run 4x of the same squad. I have the Lascannon tac to press into service, but I'm not sure how useful that is on a list with 14/3+ meltas. The scout squad is really random, but I think it can be another one of those wild cards my opponents could have trouble dealing with.

Otherwise, I think the Sternguard go into the list - combined with the librarian, they provide 4 major threats (vindicator, raider/terms x2, sternguard/libby). Their meltas are cheap, and give me some nice firepower to burn down vehicle squadrons, which will no doubt be heavily prevalent. Normally I'd be concerned that they're no tougher than a regular space marine, but I think the 2x termie squads are going to eat a lot of the firepower coming their way.


Another unit still on the table is the DH Inquisitor w/ 2x Mystics. This provides some DS defense, but I'm not sure DS is really going to be that popular - since a lot of IG players are running heavy DS hate, I think some people will shy away from it. Also, I'm not sure where he fits in, and in to what list. He's cheap, at least.


Spare points will likely be filled in with more speeders, terminators or another vindicator.


With all that said, is there anything that I'm forgetting?

I really like them both!

Thanks. I'm also considering a third variation, where I drop the Canoness and Dreadnought from the second list and replace them with a Librarian in termie armor and storm shield and another MM/HF speeder. Keeps the same amount of firepower, and the Librarian can throw around AP 1 blast templates. I lose 2 faith points and the CC of the dread though.

If you want to do something crazy... Drop the BSS for a 5 girl celestine squad and a dominion squad. Give the dominion squad 4 flamers and like 6 girls. Put them in an immolator. Your opponent will cry when he sees 4x TL flame templates and a TL Heavy flamer. FROM ONE UNIT!!

The celestines would be the crazy idea. Give the Celestine CSS a Eviscorator. Get a priest with an Evisc in there. Canonness goes with this squad. They hit on 3+ with rerolls and wound on 2+ most of the time from the Evisc. It's a DEADLY CC squad. Put it in a Immolator and it gets better.

BTW I like the first list. But, I think it could use a psychic hood. I would drop the dread (he's so lonely he would get stranded and killed easily) and get an Elite DH inquisitor with Psychic hood, 2x Hierophants and 2x mystics in a rhino or just on foot w/ HB Servitors.

Then I would give the sisters squads BOSL, and exchange one squad for that 4x Flamer dominion squad of doom (or meltaguns! 4x TL meltas = YUMMY!)

Do battle sisters really get vulkans TL when they dont have combat tactics?

Skurk3n wrote:Do battle sisters really get vulkans TL when they dont have combat tactics?

Yes.

EzeKK wrote:If you want to do something crazy... Drop the BSS for a 5 girl celestine squad and a dominion squad. Give the dominion squad 4 flamers and like 6 girls. Put them in an immolator. Your opponent will cry when he sees 4x TL flame templates and a TL Heavy flamer. FROM ONE UNIT!!

The celestines would be the crazy idea. Give the Celestine CSS a Eviscorator. Get a priest with an Evisc in there. Canonness goes with this squad. They hit on 3+ with rerolls and wound on 2+ most of the time from the Evisc. It's a DEADLY CC squad. Put it in a Immolator and it gets better.

BTW I like the first list. But, I think it could use a psychic hood. I would drop the dread (he's so lonely he would get stranded and killed easily) and get an Elite DH inquisitor with Psychic hood, 2x Hierophants and 2x mystics in a rhino or just on foot w/ HB Servitors.

Then I would give the sisters squads BOSL, and exchange one squad for that 4x Flamer dominion squad of doom (or meltaguns! 4x TL meltas = YUMMY!)

I like the idea of adding the other sisters squads, but my concern with the Celestians is that they only have 1 attack each in CC at S3. Basically would rely on the VSS, priest and canoness to cause the damage. Both of those units cause me to lose a scoring unit as well, and considering we're at 2500 points, I don't know how wise that is.

Can I have both DH and WH allies for a C:SM list? 52 points for the hood and free shots at deepstriking doesn't sound too bad though. Do the mystics work from inside a rhino?

I've also considered dropping the dread, since I don't have anything that plans on footslogging to keep with it. Guess now it comes down to what to replace him with exactly.

I appreciate the feedback, please keep it coming!

Yeah the Celestine squad completely relies on those people.

Yes, to my knowledge you can have both allies.

Yes Mystics work from inside a rhino.

Dropping the dread for melta/flamer Dominions would be an idea.

Mean lists. Similar to a list that I put in my Tactica, albeit I did pure Marines without Sisters. Some humble thoughts;

1. List two looks strong. Unsupported drop pod dreads in 1500+ = dead dread v. anyone that has a clue about fifth (IE Melta) and a quick two KPs. He should be running behind the rhinos. I don't know if I would keep the Heavy Flamer, I doubt he'll catch up to the other pressure elements in your army to utilize it.

2. What is 'chalice' for your VSS? Book of St. Lucius is a good upgrade for your VSS and if you spend the points to upgrade for the faith...might as well spend 5 more..

3. Combi-Meltas for Sarg become worth it with twin-link.



Overall, very good lists. As stated above, two seems stronger...I don't think you'll miss the second pie plate.

Sorry, Chalice is Brazier of Holy Fire. Combi-flamer, basically.

I agree about the dread, I just needed someone to tell me not to use the drop pod :p

I'm not sure about the combi weapons, they seem like a high investment of points, especially if I keep the braziers. Have others used them successfully?

Ricter wrote:Sorry, Chalice is Brazier of Holy Fire. Combi-flamer, basically.

That isn't a bad weapon in this list, but BoSL should be bought first. It's SO GOOD!

Danny Internets wrote:

Skurk3n wrote:Do battle sisters really get vulkans TL when they dont have combat tactics?

Yes.

It depends on the tournament. Two out of the three shops I play at do NOT allow it. It depends on who the judge is.

Yeah, those books look nice. Just out of curiosity, why does no one suggest them for the Canoness? Can she not take it for some obvious reason I'm missing? Also, does the book measure from the VSS, or any model in the VSS's squad?

If it's from the model, why is BoSL so good? I assume it's because "unmodified" means that I can basically ignore leadership penalties for losing combats and stuff like that?

And with regards to the tournament, it seems pretty clear that the rule works as written with allies. Maybe wasn't intended, but it's definitely written differently than the other rules were.

asugradinwa wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

Skurk3n wrote:Do battle sisters really get vulkans TL when they dont have combat tactics?

Yes.

It depends on the tournament. Two out of the three shops I play at do NOT allow it. It depends on who the judge is.

Well, the rules clearly allow it. But, yeah, of course it depends on the actual tournament and what house rules they have in effect.

As for the lists, I like the second one much better, mostly because it has more Land Speeders. These models are tremendously effective for the points in normal marine lists, and in Salamanders armies their power is off the chart. You can either deep strike them or advance behind the Land Raiders.

I also think the Redeemer is superior to the Crusader in just about every way. Hurricane bolters are the suck and the frag launchers are made useless by the fact that your terminators are striking at initiative 1 anyway. You also don't need the extra transport capacity. Your terminators are unable to take advantage of any of the advantages that the Crusader has to offer. Take Redeemers, even with extra armor--twin-linked assault cannons really hurt light vehicles and the the sponsons make a mess of infantry. Don't forget to tank shock units into formation before hitting them with the S6 AP3 template! You can even do this after moving 12" thanks to the machine spirit.

I'm not sure the Dreadnought really fits. He's useful as a deterrent, but he's slow and easily killed by meltaguns when in threat range. Most of the time he's just a 115 point multimelta, and the Land Speeder is a much better buy. Plus, you already have the Terminators to provide close combat support.

-----------------------------

I have a few questions though:

Why take Sisters of Battle? You seem to be playing them exactly as you would marines, except you get an extra regular flamer out of it.

What role does the Canoness serve? Is she just there to increase your faith points? Or is she required since you're taking Battle Sisters (I'm not intimately familiar with the codex)?

Why no Book of St. Lucius on the VSS? The book makes the unit (and any friendly unit within 6") stubborn. This is awesome when combined with the act of faith that gives you a 3+ invulnerable save. You can survive even the nastiest close combats to the last man (woman).

No combi-weapons? Definitely throw a combi-melta on each Tac squad sergeant.

-----------------------------

What I would personally do is drop the Canoness and the Dreadnought. With the remaining points I would take combi-meltas on both Tac sergeants, and double meltas in one of the Battle Sisters squads. Mechanized armies represent the vast majority of power builds, and it only gets worse with the new IG codex. You will need all of the anti-tank you can get.

I would also drop the other unit of Battle Sisters and pick up a full unit of Grey Knights with 2 incinerators. You can deploy these guys deploy inside of a Land Raider and have one of the units of Terminators deep strike. Assault Terminators are durable enough to survive a round of shooting after coming down (don't forget to use your run move after coming into play). Grey Knights with incinerators are great at killing hordes and also chew through regular MEQs. They're expensive, but they are a very good all-purpose unit. And they're Troops, so they are scoring.

And if you have extra points you can consider taking a psychic hood on the Justicar for 20 points. He's only Ld 9, but it provides you with some minor psychic defense, particularly against IG and their psyker battle squads (also Ld 9). As a mechanized list, you won't really need to fear Lash.

list B.

Your dreadnought has a gun and legs, make him walk, it's not worth the KP. Besides, landspeeders can deepstrike for your anti-tank. I also like the idea of 1 crusader and 1 redeamer. Also, since you have 2 terminater squads, you can take both the landraiders as dedicated transports, actualy giving you the full 3 HS choices. Heck, you might even drop the dread an add another Vindicator or a Whirlwind(for the long range firesupport).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Librarian good, cannones only ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Book of St Lucis over combi weapon anyday!

Danny Internets wrote:

As for the lists, I like the second one much better, mostly because it has more Land Speeders. These models are tremendously effective for the points in normal marine lists, and in Salamanders armies their power is off the chart. You can either deep strike them or advance behind the Land Raiders.

I also think the Redeemer is superior to the Crusader in just about every way. Hurricane bolters are the suck and the frag launchers are made useless by the fact that your terminators are striking at initiative 1 anyway. You also don't need the extra transport capacity. Your terminators are unable to take advantage of any of the advantages that the Crusader has to offer. Take Redeemers, even with extra armor--twin-linked assault cannons really hurt light vehicles and the the sponsons make a mess of infantry. Don't forget to tank shock units into formation before hitting them with the S6 AP3 template! You can even do this after moving 12" thanks to the machine spirit.

I'm not sure the Dreadnought really fits. He's useful as a deterrent, but he's slow and easily killed by meltaguns when in threat range. Most of the time he's just a 115 point multimelta, and the Land Speeder is a much better buy. Plus, you already have the Terminators to provide close combat support.

-----------------------------

I have a few questions though:

Why take Sisters of Battle? You seem to be playing them exactly as you would marines, except you get an extra regular flamer out of it.

What role does the Canoness serve? Is she just there to increase your faith points? Or is she required since you're taking Battle Sisters (I'm not intimately familiar with the codex)?

Why no Book of St. Lucius on the VSS? The book makes the unit (and any friendly unit within 6") stubborn. This is awesome when combined with the act of faith that gives you a 3+ invulnerable save. You can survive even the nastiest close combats to the last man (woman).

No combi-weapons? Definitely throw a combi-melta on each Tac squad sergeant.

-----------------------------

What I would personally do is drop the Canoness and the Dreadnought. With the remaining points I would take combi-meltas on both Tac sergeants, and double meltas in one of the Battle Sisters squads. Mechanized armies represent the vast majority of power builds, and it only gets worse with the new IG codex. You will need all of the anti-tank you can get.

I would also drop the other unit of Battle Sisters and pick up a full unit of Grey Knights with 2 incinerators. You can deploy these guys deploy inside of a Land Raider and have one of the units of Terminators deep strike. Assault Terminators are durable enough to survive a round of shooting after coming down (don't forget to use your run move after coming into play). Grey Knights with incinerators are great at killing hordes and also chew through regular MEQs. They're expensive, but they are a very good all-purpose unit. And they're Troops, so they are scoring.

And if you have extra points you can consider taking a psychic hood on the Justicar for 20 points. He's only Ld 9, but it provides you with some minor psychic defense, particularly against IG and their psyker battle squads (also Ld 9). As a mechanized list, you won't really need to fear Lash.

Just to be clear, models aren't a concern here, so I can easily switch. I think everyone's been operating under that already, so it works out.

Should I really double up on the Redeemer? I've got no problems doing it, it saves me 10 points, but at the same time, I was thinking that at least one land raider should have a little more ranged firepower. I'm a fan of the tank shocking myself, especially considering I'm already running a lot of armor, the LR's will probably survive better than normal.

I agree about the Dreadnought. He was there because I had the model and the points, I just didn't know really what else to put down.

Sisters squeeze two flamers into the same squad, are cheaper than tacs, and have access to Divine Guidance (basically puts rending on their shooting attacks). Between DG and Vulkan, their flamers are much more effective than a tac squad's anti-horde output. Their templates with DG and Vulkan average out to wipe a 10-man MEQ squad, especially if said MEQ has just disembarked or DS'd in. They also serve as a great tag team with the tac squads - the tacs pop a transport, and the sisters on average will wipe the squad coming out, assuming it's MEQ or lighter.

Originally I only had 1, but I felt more scoring units might be good, and I wasn't confident in my anti-horde abilities. 7 Flamers and a pie plate just didn't seem like enough, especially considering my melee squads don't have a lot of attacks either.

Canoness was in the list because she's cheap and puts out similar melee hurt as an SM captain (-1 WS, +1 S), and because she gives two faith points. She's not required, and tbh, I was looking at dropping her and the dreadnought. Originally she was on a JP and was to hunt down small squads, but I felt with the increase in speeders and second Terminator squad, I didn't need that, and now she feels like kind of a left over. Hence why I've been considering replacing her with a Librarian.

The reason the book and combi weapons haven't been added is because I didn't know where to shave the points. The dreadnought seemed like the most obvious choice to drop, but that suddenly gives me a large chasm of points for only 30 pts of upgrades that I wanted (2x book, 2 combi). It seems everyone is really a fan of combi-weapons these days. Am I missing something? It seems you're paying full points for a weapon you're only going to fire once, instead of the entire game.

My only concern with switching the sisters squad to meltas and dropping the other is this drops my flamer count to a pitiful 5, while upping my melta count to 15. That seems like it really makes me vulnerable to hordes, especially considering I have 10 assault terminators with thunder hammers for additional anti-tank. I do have the pie plate at least. Divine Guidance isn't as useful to the squad at that point either - if I switch them, the Canoness should definitely go then.

I'll run through the points with the Grey Knights in the list.


@Perturabo's Chosen: Only one Assault Terminator squad can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. Dreadnought seems to be the weakest link, so he's done. I like considering the Librarian, since he gives me the hood defense, as there's a lot of psychic powers running around these days (lash, PBS, etc). Books are going in, going to have to see where to get the points.



It seems the general consensus is for the dreadnought to definitely be gone, and double book on the sisters squads, so that's happening. I'll update the list and post it here shortly.


Alright, from the suggestions here, two updated lists:

HQ
Vulkan (190):

Elite
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LR
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. DS's

Troops
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Battle Sisters Squad, 10(199): Meltagun x2, VSS w/ Book, Rhino.
Grey Knights, 10(315): Incinerator x2, Psychic Hood. Rides in LR

Fast Attack
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2439 pts, 61 models, 4/6 Scoring, 15 KP, 1 Faith Point, 12 Meltas, 4 h/flamers and 2 1-shot meltas

My concerns with this list is it's 61 points short without any really good options, although I'm probably missing something. The only thing I can think of is the hood inquisitor, but I don't have the points for a spare transport. It's also really light on horde kill, with only 4 heavy flamers, 2 incinerators and 1 pie plate. The sisters also aren't nearly as useful, so I might "upgrade" them to a tactical squad. At this point, they're really only bringing the book, since their faith point probably won't do as much with meltas. This list does have really low KP, which I really like.



Second List:

HQ
Vulkan (190):
Librarian (140): Terminator Armor with Storm Shield.

Elite
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LR
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. DS's

Troops
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Battle Sisters Squad, 10(191): Flamer x2, VSS w/ Book, Rhino.
Grey Knights, 8(245): Incinerator x2. Rides in LR

Fast Attack
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2501 pts, 60 models, 4/6 Scoring, 16 KP, 1 Faith Point, 10 Meltas, 6 h/flamers and 2 1-shot meltas

This list switches some of the meltas out for more flamers, and also incorporates the librarian idea, cutting the hood from the GK squad. The list is 1 point over though, with nothing obvious to cut out. It keeps a trim KP as well. The librarian would probably go with the DS term squad, maybe even going as far as to use IG and VoD.


A few of my questions seem to have disappeared here. Is the book radius measured from the VSS, or her squad? Also, can I take Witch Hunters AND Demon Hunters in the same list? I didn't do 'Ard Boyz last year, but from reading the rules, it seems to be one or the other.

Thoughts on the lists and my other questions? Am I getting too concerned about anti-horde?

I am liking those updated lists!

I would be hesitant about running two Redeemers though. But then again, you are a Vulcan army so go ahead. I would give the Librarian Gate of Infinity and not DS the termies, instead just use that to warp them around. Apart from that I like the 2nd list. I love speeders, they work very well. The Redeemers will make all meq cry.

The only weakpoint I see is the Deepstriking unit that just b/c is can be shot for a turn, but otherwise I like it a lot.

I think the new lists are a definite improvement.

I wouldn't worry much about two Redeemers. A normal LR isn't a bad idea, but you're going to be charging forward with it in all likelihood, so you're sacrificing massive anti-horde firepower for basically one lascannon shot per turn with the machine spirit. The shorter range of the assault cannon and multimelta matter less when you consider that you're going to probably deploy as far forward as possible, then advance every turn.

I think the Librarian is a good addition too, but I don't know that I'd give him 40 points of wargear. He's not a front line character, but rather a utility guy. His best uses will probably be to keep casting Null Zone and for his psychic hood--and if you stay embarked in the LR then the range of both are extended considerably. (EDIT: not sure if you can cast Null Zone while embarked, but the point still stands for the hood.)

As per your response, I now see the point of the Battle Sisters units with flamers, and I think that's probably a good addition. However, I would add that you don't have much to fear from horde armies. The only hordes you are likely to see are Orks and IG, and the former has a real hard time dealing with Land Raiders, especially Redeemers. The latter army is more about getting across the table alive than killing huge mobs of infantry--if you make it you can engage multiple units in assault and you'll likely win.

And then there is the Tyranid horde, but that army sucks and shouldn't give you any problems whatsoever.

I would shave points off the Librarian and increase the the deep striking Terminator unit to 6. I have always found this to be the magic number for the unit--enough to kill just about anything, and enough to survive just about anything, at least long enough to get your support into position. Also increase the Grey Knights to a full 10 if you can find the points. And don't forget to give the Justicar frag grenades as wargear for 1 point (the rest of the squad can't take them).

Well, I just called the FLGS that's responsible for the 'ard boyz nearest me, and asked them a handful of rules questions.

1) Does Vulkan work with allies?

No.

2) Can you take WH and DH?

Probably yes.

3) How does the valk work?

The base is the model for all purposes except for line of sight.


The store rep that I was speaking with said he's going to double check these answers with his GW rep, but I'm guessing that he's probably correct. This obviously is going to mean changes to my list. I'm guessing that all stores are probably going to run by the same rules as well.


With regards to the librarian, the termie armor and shield were to keep alive from anything trying to squish him. I'm going to have to think more on the comments and how the rules updates change this.

Damn that stinks. Running sisters as allies is still a great addition but it may just be better to spend less with IST's. Grey Knights are still GREAT, but I would probably use them with Psycannons. Libby w/SS is a great upgrade he hits like a truck and can take down so many people.

Like someone else said, running him Nullzone + GoI would make for a terrifying combination w/ the TH/SS termies. Ignoring invul saves and wounding most things on 2's. /drool

I completely misread Null Zone, I thought it only lasted for the rest of the phase. That makes it a lot better.

I think now the sisters aren't quite worth it. I've already dropped the canoness and now they don't benefit from the TL. The book is still nice, but now I'm not so sure.

From what I've read about GK, if I go with 2x Psycannon, I should go with a min-sized "sniping" squad, that essentially sits on the 36" range of the psycannons.

Ricter wrote:I completely misread Null Zone, I thought it only lasted for the rest of the phase. That makes it a lot better.

I think now the sisters aren't quite worth it. I've already dropped the canoness and now they don't benefit from the TL. The book is still nice, but now I'm not so sure.

From what I've read about GK, if I go with 2x Psycannon, I should go with a min-sized "sniping" squad, that essentially sits on the 36" range of the psycannons.

That is an option. They are still ridiculous in CC STR 6 /yum. A good idea would be get a GKT sniper squad w/ a Brother Captain w/ Psycannon + GKT Elite w/ BC w/ Psycannon w/ 2 GKT 1 w/ psycannon

Brother Captain - 81
Psycannon

GKT Squad -
Brother Captain; Psycannon; 2x GKT; PSycannon

3 Psycannon squad that still rocks in CC.

Hello.
About the librarian, what psychic power are you thinking of? IMO Null Zone is a must; time to go seer council hunting! Otherwise, looks good.

Here are some of my thoughts on GK allies in a competitive Marine list (and other musings);

If you want GKs, use their HQ Brother-Captain along with GK terminators. GK Terms are beatsticks...and the old codex allows for a few tricks;

1. GK Brother Captain + Term bodyguard = retinue. They can't pick him out in combat, he counts as an upgrade character....which leads us to point 2

2. His Force Weapon 'truly' instant kills. That means if Eternal Warrior, etc does NOT work against his force weapon. He can insta-kill anything in the game. Now couple that with his retinue ability...and that's a unit no DP or big nasty wants to be around. Throw a hood on him (Ld 10) and you have a tough unit to crack. About that hood....

3. His hood nullifies anything on the table....not just within 24".


If you were to include this unit, I would replace an Assault Term. group. IMHO, Assault Terms should never deep strike in any list....but especially not in 2k+ lists. Why? Well, first mech is where it's at. Raiders are tough, allow assault after move (That's a 20 inch threat range for your terms!)...and they can ride in it. Why the hell deep strike them?

Second, two common competitive lists I imagine we'll see at Ard boyz will be;

IG w/ Choir + DH Allie Inquisitor w/ Mystics. That Inquisitor ally unit runs around 30-40 points...and if parked next to plasma? The minute your terms deep strike they will get killed before ever moving....THEN on his turn he'll do it again. That's not a good strategy.

Double lash. If you're in a Raider, you have a 20 inch threat range and will get at least one assault off. If you deep strike into a double lash list with Oblit Plasma spam, they'll laugh at you.

Just my thoughts....

The DH codex says that Daemonhunters can be allied with Imperial Guard or Space Marines, but not both. It goes on to say that the Daemonhunters may be the only allies of the original force unless they are from another branch of the Ordo Malleus

I would assume that this includes Sisters.

As for psycannons, dont forget they are also assault 3 weapons, so dont be afraid to get them in there fighting on the front lines.
Albeit the Psycannon wielders' attacks will be S4 and they wont get the bonus for two one handed weapons in CC.
Although thats not so bad considering True Grit only lets them have the assault bonus when assaulting, and they only get the two one handed weapon bonus in any assault phases thereafter.

ShadowRocket wrote:The DH codex says that Daemonhunters can be allied with Imperial Guard or Space Marines, but not both. It goes on to say that the Daemonhunters may be the only allies of the original force unless they are from another branch of the Ordo Malleus

I would assume that this includes Sisters.

There is no debate about this and if a store gives you a hard time, print out the Witch Hunters codex FAQ;

Q: Can Daemonhunters be taken as allies in an army that also has Witch Hunters allies?
A: Yes

What weapon loadout would you suggest then for the gkt? Shooty or blunt? They also have the old thunder hammers, which prevent attacks instead of I1... hmmm... no free MC though.

Ironic that you just suggested that now. I thought I was being safe in buying my second squad of terminators...

Since I'd basically be dropping the librarian and sisters squad, that would actually pay for them, and I'd be running 3 termie squads at that point...

The only way to get a third transport is another raider at that point... ugh.

And thanks for the WH & DH clarification, I was typing my post while that was being posted. Although increasingly, it is looking like the sisters are the weakest link...

And regards to the librarian, I was considering Null Zone and Vortex of Doom if he's going in the Land Raider, and dropping one of those for GoI if his squad isn't going into the land raider. Out of curiosity, why is Null Zone such a must? I'd understand if it prevented invulnerable saves, but between it's narrow range and niche focus... I still see it being useful, but a lot of popular lists don't rely on them (mech ig, Orks, Tyranids).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One problem AoE - the BC's NFH doesn't count as a force weapon - I either need to spend the 40 points to get one, or go for a GM.

Null zone lets you go hunting the enemies' uber close combat troops. Lets say that your 5 termis with thunder-hammer/SS have to fight (dun dun dun) 5 termis with thunder-hammer/SS. Your Null Zone would force you opponent to re-roll any successful 3+ invul saves, giving you the 1up you need to win. Null Zone actually starts in the beginning of your shooting phase, so you could just shoot the tar out of them first. Don't forget it has a 24" radius, so would cover almost half the board, so would be awesome against 1000 Sons or any invul heavy army/unit, like the avatar or wraithlord.

As a suggestion, lose the 2nd squad of assault termies and change one LR back to a Crusader. Now pump your assault termies up to a squad of 8. You have 70 pts to play with and your GK termies and Brother Captain just got a ride in the other LR.

8 TL hammers out of one and a boat-load of S6 I5 PW out of the other... with an old fashioned psychic hood messing with fortune eldar and lashing chaos sounds like a good plan to me.

I believe you are down to 1 FP with your sisters so lose them. Also I would just skip the GK troop choice. S6 sounds good but at 2500 pts S6 non-power weapons is none too scary for the amount of points you are spending... (300+ for them or 320 for 8 assault termies... I know which one is better)

Turn the sisters and GK troop choices into salamander tacticals. You are winning with FP except for the assault termies and GK termies.

Another thought is a 5 man std terminator squad with a Hvy Flamer in a 3rd LR. This can serve as Vulkan's honor guard and gives it 2 TL Heavy flamers to unload on your opponent. The trick here is coming up with the pts for the 3rd LR.

I think AgeofEgos provides good advice with the Brother Captain's force weapon and the wording which lets you kill outright even models with Eternal Warrior.

And the Psychic Hood for 20 points at Ld 10 is great because you'll definitely see people using dual Lash in the first round of the tournament. Probably not so much the second as I don't imagine they will do very well this time around.

Another thought is a 5 man std terminator squad with a Hvy Flamer in a 3rd LR. This can serve as Vulkan's honor guard and gives it 2 TL Heavy flamers to unload on your opponent. The trick here is coming up with the pts for the 3rd LR.

There is really never a reason to take standard Terminators anymore, and this is especially true when running Vulkan. Spending 570 points or so just to deliver 2 heavy flamers is not a wise use of points.