Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BS5 for the multi-melta is worth it alone... you can reroll a 2+!

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:BS5 for the multi-melta is worth it alone... you can reroll a 2+!

G

Its already twin-linked.....

Chronus is a waste. The only argument he might have going for him would be a Dakka pred....even then for his cost I could basically have another predator.....

Cool concept....just bad cost = /

70 points minus the cost of extra armor comes in around 55 points... two percent of the list. I always chuckle when I see people skimping on points.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:70 points minus the cost of extra armor comes in around 55 points... two percent of the list. I always chuckle when I see people skimping on points.

G

That's a non-sequitor. By subtracting EA from his cost, you are making the assumption that EA is worth 15 points (Which it is not).

For gaks/giggles though, a twin-linked BS 4 Melta has an 88% chance to hit. A twin-linked BS 5 Melta has a 97% chance to hit.** So if you think 55 points is worth 9% over 88....and you think EA is worth it at 15 points...and you don't mind bleeding another KP.....then yeah, you should play him.

I'll pass though, spend 15 more points and buy another kitted out Predator. Skimping points = making an efficient list......


**Quick and dirty math, may be subject to error

Although no one has said it specifically a few people have alluded to the idea that Vulkan twin links flamestorm cannons on the redeemers. He does not.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Green Blow Fly wrote:70 points minus the cost of extra armor comes in around 55 points... two percent of the list. I always chuckle when I see people skimping on points.

G

Good lists don't waste points, whether you're talking about 7 or 70.

Chronus is a complete waste. He only increases a twin-linked weapon's chance to hit by 8.3%.

And with vulkan everything but flamestorms & storm bolters are twin linked on a landraider. Chronos doesn't help with flamestorms unless you would normally be shaken & you plan to move 6" or less and if you are buying Chronos to increase the BS on twin linked weapons & a storm bolter you arn't using your points effectivly.

Ricter wrote:So then maybe something like this?

HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with AT
Librarian (100): Gate of Infinity, Null Zone. "Rides" with Sternguard

ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Grey Knight Terminators, 5(245): Storm Bolters and Nemesis Force Weapon. Rides in LRR
Sternguard, 7(190): Combi-Melta, Meltagun x2. "Rides" with Librarian

TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2500 pts, 59 models, 4/6 Scoring, 16 KP, 14 Meltas, 4 h/flamers and 4 1-shot meltas

I say drop the Sternguard and put in more Land Speeders with MM and HF and give your Libby Termie armor w/ storm shield and have him ride with the Grey Knight Termies... or maybe instead of putting them in an LRR have them teleport around with the GoI and use the LRR's points for another tac squad. Instead of combi-meltas I'd go for combi-flamers to add some extra anti-horde with the tac squad. Hmmm and maybe you could drop the Vindicator to put PFs on your sgt.s... then again, a pie plate at S10 is always nice.

Like I said he comes out to 2% of the total points. This is the most competitive event. I can easily a case for taking him.

G

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:70 points minus the cost of extra armor comes in around 55 points... two percent of the list. I always chuckle when I see people skimping on points.

G

That's a non-sequitor. By subtracting EA from his cost, you are making the assumption that EA is worth 15 points (Which it is not).

For gaks/giggles though, a twin-linked BS 4 Melta has an 88% chance to hit. A twin-linked BS 5 Melta has a 97% chance to hit.** So if you think 55 points is worth 9% over 88....and you think EA is worth it at 15 points...and you don't mind bleeding another KP.....then yeah, you should play him.

I'll pass though, spend 15 more points and buy another kitted out Predator. Skimping points = making an efficient list......


**Quick and dirty math, may be subject to error

I can see how in the most competitive event you'd want to waste points..... I could make a case for taking him. In a predator. Maybe. But on a tank that already has everything twin linked at BS4 you really dont need BS5.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Like I said he comes out to 2% of the total points. This is the most competitive event. I can easily a case for taking him.

G

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:70 points minus the cost of extra armor comes in around 55 points... two percent of the list. I always chuckle when I see people skimping on points.

G

That's a non-sequitor. By subtracting EA from his cost, you are making the assumption that EA is worth 15 points (Which it is not).

For gaks/giggles though, a twin-linked BS 4 Melta has an 88% chance to hit. A twin-linked BS 5 Melta has a 97% chance to hit.** So if you think 55 points is worth 9% over 88....and you think EA is worth it at 15 points...and you don't mind bleeding another KP.....then yeah, you should play him.

I'll pass though, spend 15 more points and buy another kitted out Predator. Skimping points = making an efficient list......


**Quick and dirty math, may be subject to error

Look what is your overall lifetime tournament record? Mine is better than three wins for every loss. I tend to know what I am talking about when it comes to competitive SM lists.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Look what is your overall lifetime tournament record? Mine is better than three wins for every loss. I tend to know what I am talking about when it comes to competitive SM lists.

G

*Snort*

I don't know about him but I'm 245,312 wins and 32 losses. However, I'm quite sure I was cheated in 29 of those 32 losses.

/My argument from authority is bigger than yours
//Not going to debate Chronus further, as we're crowding out the OPs thread

AgeofEgos: did you happen to run up against panfo in those losses? Those things are pretty tought to beat once they are reviled.

Here is what I am running in my 'Ard Boyz list atm:

HQ
Vulkan
Cassius

Troop
10 man tac squad w/melta/mm and sarge w/combi-melta in razorback
10 man tac squad w/melta/lc and sarge w/chainsword/bp in rhino
10 man tac squad w/flamer/lc and sarge w/chainsword/bp in rhino

Elite
7 man assault terminator squad w/th-ss
dreadnought w/mm/hf
dreadnough w/mm/hf

Fast Attack
3 x 2 landspeeders w/mm/hf

Heavy Support
lrc w/mm
lrr w/mm
predator w/ac/hb sponsons

17 or 18 kps. 2500pts on the button. 11 mm's, 9 hf's, 2 hellstorm cannons, 1 flamer and 2 lascannons. I am thinking of dumping the predator for something else, but what I am not sure.

Will be play testing it this saturday.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Look what is your overall lifetime tournament record? Mine is better than three wins for every loss. I tend to know what I am talking about when it comes to competitive SM lists.

G

honestly myself and probably most of the people posting in this thread dont give a flying expletive about your tournament record. If you do want to know I'm 7-1-1 in my last 3 tournaments since getting back in the game with my sallies, so guess what mine is better than 3 wins for every loss too. So your point is moot. If you want to waste points on chronus then fine, but stop giving people bad advice and thinking you can back it up with your supposed tournament record as some badge you know what your talking about.

Very impressive record there for Jervis Johnson's poster boy!



G

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Look what is your overall lifetime tournament record? Mine is better than three wins for every loss. I tend to know what I am talking about when it comes to competitive SM lists.

G

*Snort*

I don't know about him but I'm 245,312 wins and 32 losses. However, I'm quite sure I was cheated in 29 of those 32 losses.

/My argument from authority is bigger than yours
//Not going to debate Chronus further, as we're crowding out the OPs thread

Okay, I think now is a great time for the E-peen joust to end, thanks.


Regardless, I've done some thinking about the list, and basically come up with a "core" list to expand from, based on the missions we're expected to play.


HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with AT
Librarian (100): Gate of Infinity, Null Zone.


ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR


TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2265 pts, 52 models, 3/6 Scoring, 15 KP, 12 Meltas, 5 h/flamers and 3 1-shot meltas


Basically, I decided that either the Sternguard or GKT needed to go - way too many shiny things and rules to keep track of. I've not played with either of them before, and trying to run vulnerable units like that is probably a poor idea. I'm not against running both if I can get the practice in, though.

I think that besides the Librarian, Vindicator and the weapon choices of the tactical squads, this will be the basic "framework" that just about every Salamanders player will bring. Thus I'll ignore explaining my thought process behind them, and instead go from there. I'm not set on their numbers, but it's going to require a good point to move them.

The librarian acts as my ace in the hole. He tips the balance in favor of my AT in the mirror, or against other assault units. He also can drastically improve my shooting against Chaos Daemons and Eldar. His hood allows me to shut down PBS and all the other powers running rampant. He does not sync well at all with the GKT - basically, if the GKT come in, he goes out. Also, he is a vulnerable HQ. If it turns out that HQ's are worth 3 KP again this year, he probably gets cut, and the GKT come in to fill his place.

Tactical squad armaments, namely triple melta. These I'm not sold on. 30 points on three shots (the combis) seem like a lot, especially consider the squad is already throwing a TL-melta shot. I can see the advantage of the flamer, especially with the heavy IG field - but honestly, it seems like overkill with 5 heavy flamers and 4 flamestorm cannons. Meltas can be pressed into service killing infantry, and along with massed bolter fire and assault, can do an okay job. Especially considering the tactical squads might be on their own chasing down objectives, I'd rather they be able to pop any opposing vehicles coming their way.

The Vindicator seems to be a popular choice these days, and I think he'll serve a strong "threat presence" in this army. Considering my heavy melta count and the flamers/cannons of other troops, I don't really rely on him to do anything, meaning anything he does will be pure gravy. He draws fire, and I frankly don't care if he's destroyed, especially considering that fire should probably have been directed at the land raiders instead.


From here, the list can go a few ways.

If it ends up that HQ are worth extra, the librarian gets the axe, one of the AT gets an upgrade to GKT w/ hood, and I spend the rest of the points elsewhere.

If troops are critical, I put in another tactical squad or a scout squad with a storm. I'm not really sure what this tac squad should look like - it seems overkill to run 4x of the same squad. I have the Lascannon tac to press into service, but I'm not sure how useful that is on a list with 14/3+ meltas. The scout squad is really random, but I think it can be another one of those wild cards my opponents could have trouble dealing with.

Otherwise, I think the Sternguard go into the list - combined with the librarian, they provide 4 major threats (vindicator, raider/terms x2, sternguard/libby). Their meltas are cheap, and give me some nice firepower to burn down vehicle squadrons, which will no doubt be heavily prevalent. Normally I'd be concerned that they're no tougher than a regular space marine, but I think the 2x termie squads are going to eat a lot of the firepower coming their way.


Another unit still on the table is the DH Inquisitor w/ 2x Mystics. This provides some DS defense, but I'm not sure DS is really going to be that popular - since a lot of IG players are running heavy DS hate, I think some people will shy away from it. Also, I'm not sure where he fits in, and in to what list. He's cheap, at least.


Spare points will likely be filled in with more speeders, terminators or another vindicator.


With all that said, is there anything that I'm forgetting?

I like this latest iteration. More speeders please.

This is definitely your hottest list yet. I am big fan of Vulkan and he can do for a SM list like this.

G

So something I'm noticing watching a lot of these marine lists.

How would you beat a tri-monolith wall list? Pray for 6's with some of your melta's?

I'm thinking that tri-lith might make a surprise comeback with the amount of melta people are taking, and the distinct lack of str9 and str10 weapons people are putting in their lists.

Ricter wrote:Well, I just called the FLGS that's responsible for the 'ard boyz nearest me, and asked them a handful of rules questions.

1) Does Vulkan work with allies?

No.

2) Can you take WH and DH?

Probably yes.

3) How does the valk work?

The base is the model for all purposes except for line of sight.


The store rep that I was speaking with said he's going to double check these answers with his GW rep, but I'm guessing that he's probably correct. This obviously is going to mean changes to my list. I'm guessing that all stores are probably going to run by the same rules as well.


With regards to the librarian, the termie armor and shield were to keep alive from anything trying to squish him. I'm going to have to think more on the comments and how the rules updates change this.

Well there is no question that you can take DH/WH as it is in the rules pack for Ard Boyz already. If the rest of the rulings are correct then I think that is a very simple and perfectly functional way to solve all the valkyrie problems. And even though I run Vulkan I have never been comfortable with him giving allies his ability. Nice to see they fixed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warmaster wrote:So something I'm noticing watching a lot of these marine lists.

How would you beat a tri-monolith wall list? Pray for 6's with some of your melta's?

I'm thinking that tri-lith might make a surprise comeback with the amount of melta people are taking, and the distinct lack of str9 and str10 weapons people are putting in their lists.

The same way you always deal with Tri Monlith, phase out. All those meltas and thunderhammer still work perfectly well against Cron Warriors. I know that with My MechVet IG I do not even fire a single shot at the monoliths despite having 3 S10, and 8 S9 shots per turn. Why bother, when its so much easier to kill the terminat... err Necrons.

Yeah, I was going to say - I'd love to play tri-monolith, makes phase out that much easier.

Supposedly I'm getting a call back from both of the two stores I called (i have two that are the same distance away, so I contacted both). I'm hoping that they both come back with the same answers, meaning that GW actually is holding a pretty steady rule set.

Warmaster wrote:So something I'm noticing watching a lot of these marine lists.

How would you beat a tri-monolith wall list? Pray for 6's with some of your melta's?

I'm thinking that tri-lith might make a surprise comeback with the amount of melta people are taking, and the distinct lack of str9 and str10 weapons people are putting in their lists.

Trilith is there every year because it is basically a no brainer power list perfectly suited for ard Boyz. If I remember correctly Kirby won the 1st ard Boyz with Necrons. You can expect a C'tan and a VOD ROB Lord as well. These are tough list because they can teleport up to four units out of close combat until you start to shut them down. For Space Marines I have found the lascannon is your best bet at dropping the liths. Snipers are good for dropping the C'tan but the best unit is Sternguard rapid firing hellfire rounds. If you are really worried about a trilith/stargod list then take both Vulkan and Lysander and a full squad of SG all armed with coMbi meltas. You can drop pod the SG with Lysander beside the C'tan and reroll while rapid firing the hellfire rounds. That should destroy the star god with one round of shooting. If you don't take out the star god he will waltz right through your thunder hammer termies.

G

Ricter wrote:Okay, I think now is a great time for the E-peen joust to end, thanks.


Regardless, I've done some thinking about the list, and basically come up with a "core" list to expand from, based on the missions we're expected to play.

The missions have been released?

imweasel wrote:

Ricter wrote:Okay, I think now is a great time for the E-peen joust to end, thanks.


Regardless, I've done some thinking about the list, and basically come up with a "core" list to expand from, based on the missions we're expected to play.

The missions have been released?

No, this is the list I'm going to build from. How I build it from here depends on the missions.

Things to consider (although your list is lookin good)

IG guards you come across at 'Ard Boyz are probably going to be Mech, or Infantry spam with Heavy support.

Mech is going to have a fair amount of AV 12 (Vendettas, Chimeras) with AV 14 tanks for support.

Infantry spam is going to have that AV 14 support, but they'll probably bring a couple of Lascannon weapon teams for their "Bring it Down" orders.

With that said, I like the balance of Anti Tank and Anti Horde you've mixed into the list, and you have some points to spread for more balance or anticipation of more one or the other.

Oh, and watch for the allied Inquisitor w/Mysitcs if you take Drop Pods or deep strike any Speeders or anything. Or drop them around 18" away from the Inquisitor, as they normally dont roll high enough to get that far (careful though, it can still happen, just not that likely)

I look forward to seeing what you decide on.

I like your idea of a "core" list. Here's my 2 cents (lists) that are somewhat similar. YMMV, as these are not set up to be 'Ard Boys tourny kings.
My first list. I thought that with 2 Vindicators, 1 landraider and 3 rhinos, that all the armour would prove to be a challenge to most.
HQ
Vulkan He'stan 190
librarian w/ termi & storm shiled 190
ELITE
5 Assult termis 200
Landraider redemer w/ multi melta 250
5 Assult termis 200
FAST ATTACK
Landspeeder w/ multi melta & heavy flamer 70
Landspeeder w/ multi melta & heavy flamer 70
Landspeeder w/ multi melta & heavy flamer 70
TROOPS
10 Tac Marines w/ meltagun & multi melta, Sarg w/ power Sword & rhino 225
10 Tac Marines w/ meltagun & multi melta, Sarg w/ power Sword & rhino 225
10 Tac Marines w/ meltagun & multi melta, Sarg w/ power Fist & rhino 235
10 Scouts with sniper rifles & camo cloaks 170
HEAVY SUPPORT
Landraider redemer w/ multi melta 250
Vindicator 115

If my math is right, it's 2495
I like having power weapons on my tac squads, 'cuase sometimes you just have to charge, and other times you cant help being charged. Unlike combi weapons, you can use them more than once. The scouts are for taking out monsterouc creatures and just plain old being annoying, getting in the way, distracting the opponent from what I'm trying to do, just like your Vindicator does for the Landraiders. If you drop the Epistolary from the librarian, you could add Telion, lose 1 scout and then and a Heavy Bolter or Missile launcher.
Hope this helps, if only for comparison.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236910.page