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Ricter wrote:What weapon loadout would you suggest then for the gkt? Shooty or blunt? They also have the old thunder hammers, which prevent attacks instead of I1... hmmm... no free MC though.

Ironic that you just suggested that now. I thought I was being safe in buying my second squad of terminators...

Since I'd basically be dropping the librarian and sisters squad, that would actually pay for them, and I'd be running 3 termie squads at that point...

The only way to get a third transport is another raider at that point... ugh.

And thanks for the WH & DH clarification, I was typing my post while that was being posted. Although increasingly, it is looking like the sisters are the weakest link...

And regards to the librarian, I was considering Null Zone and Vortex of Doom if he's going in the Land Raider, and dropping one of those for GoI if his squad isn't going into the land raider. Out of curiosity, why is Null Zone such a must? I'd understand if it prevented invulnerable saves, but between it's narrow range and niche focus... I still see it being useful, but a lot of popular lists don't rely on them (mech ig, Orks, Tyranids).


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One problem AoE - the BC's NFH doesn't count as a force weapon - I either need to spend the 40 points to get one, or go for a GM.

The reason nullzone is so great is when you face Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Spacemarines, Eldar.... Basically everyone. Look at a Nob Biker unit vs. your TH/SS terminators. You ignore their armor save, FNP save, and if they take Cybork bodies, nullzone will stop that. That means you instakill them with your TH's. Without Nullzone, they can have a chance to save themselves.

The same goes for other TH/SS terminators or a Jetcouncil or just a Warlock or Farseer. It works especially well with Chaos Daemons stopping all their saves.

NFH? Nemesis force hammer? If you take a TH it wouldn't be a force weapon, but thats why you don't take the TH on a BC. NFW are way to good to pass up on a BC for a TH, he's got STR6 Force weapon, i'll keep that!

AgeOfEgos has a lot of good points, but I'm actually curious how Eternal Warriors doesn't stop the force weapon?

It doesn't stop the Nemesis Force Weapon since it has it's own entry in the book and does not cause instant death. It's all about the wording but it say kills outright or something instead. Since it doesn't cause instant death the rule in eternal warrior saying your immune to instant death doesn't apply. Note that the only weapon that can do this is a GK Grandmaster. But yeah, eternal warrior doesn't work on it.

EzeKK wrote:
The reason nullzone is so great is when you face Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Spacemarines, Eldar.... Basically everyone. Look at a Nob Biker unit vs. your TH/SS terminators. You ignore their armor save, FNP save, and if they take Cybork bodies, nullzone will stop that. That means you instakill them with your TH's. Without Nullzone, they can have a chance to save themselves.

The same goes for other TH/SS terminators or a Jetcouncil or just a Warlock or Farseer. It works especially well with Chaos Daemons stopping all their saves.

Keep in mind that Null Zone does not negate invulnerable saves, but requires your opponent to re-roll successful ones for the remainder of the Librarian's turn.

Sorry, by NFH I meant Nemesis Force Halberd, I I thought they were called that instead of Nemesis Force Weapon for some reason.

Again, with the Brother Captain, his NFW does NOT cause hit kills, unless I blow the 40 points on it. As far as I understand from the NFW table, the only person's NFW that counts is the Grand Masters. If I blow the 40 points on it for the BC however, he loses the +2 Str and costs just as much as a librarian for a -1 W and no psychic powers at that point (121 vs 125). His advantage of course is the better force weapon.

With regards to Null Zone, reroll is still nice, and I can see now how it's the edge I'll need to beat most other killy melee units. I was just getting confused since people were using "negate" instead of "reroll".

With the GKT, what weapons should I be using? Their TH are better than mine, but don't get the free MC. Storm Bolter + NFW seems obvious, but since standard terms aren't worth it, does that apply to GKT standards as well?



Sisters are gone then - one squad isn't going to be able to carry their weight anymore. Looks like I'm going to need another tactical.

I'm trying to play around with the points here, but I'm not getting anything I'm satisfied with. Hopefully I'll come up with something.


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And what does "You are winning with FP" mean? I'm completely failing at remembering what FP means...


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Here's what I'm working off of right now. I tried to incorporate all of the suggestions that I've seen, but if I missed something, just let me know.


HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with GKT
Librarian (140): Terminator Armor and Storm Shield. Rides with AT

ELITE
Assault Terminators, 7(280): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRC
Grey Knight Terminators, 5(245): Storm Bolters and Nemesis Force Weapon. Rides in LRR

TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Crusader, 1(260): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2420 pts, 54 models, 4/6 Scoring, 15 KP, 12 Meltas, 4 h/flamers and 3 1-shot meltas


80 points short, and kind of low on flamers, especially with trading the Redeemer for a Crusader. Also a bit low on the boot count.

Both Land Raiders are at full capacity, even though I have the points to squeeze in more termies. I don't really see any good options to spend the points on - maybe another landspeeder?

Also, does Vulkan negate the GKT shrouding if he joins their unit? I hope not.

The other issue is I have the weaker hood on the Librarian compared to the BC's hood. I plan on taking VoD and Null Zone with him, allowing him to pop a transport and have the AT assault the squishies inside, forcing rerolls on invulnerable saves. I'm not set on him though, especially since i can drop 20 and get the hood on the GKBC and maybe squeeze in a more killy hq to assist the AT. On the other hand though, do they really need it?

All C&C welcome, thanks a lot for the feedback so far.


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Oh, and the Librarian basically got terminator armor so he could use VoD, because I didn't really see any other power being useful. The SS is kind of points filler, since he's squishy enough to warrant +2 to his save.

With the GKT, what weapons should I be using? Their TH are better than mine, but don't get the free MC. Storm Bolter + NFW seems obvious, but since standard terms aren't worth it, does that apply to GKT standards as well?

Can't go wrong with psycannons on these guys, but incinerators aren't bad either. Standard Terminators aren't worth the points, but these guys are excellent if you can keep them alive. 46 points each, but they have S6 power weapons (and storm bolters).

The only problem I see with the list is that 3 units is really the bare, bare minimum you could ever hope to get away with in terms of Troops. Of course, you can combat squad, but you're still relying on only AV 11 Rhinos for your scoring mobility. I personally found it to be a big problem last year and they were never able to make it across the table. It becomes a really big issue in Capture and Control missions.

What would you suggest instead? Like I said, I'm kind of squandering around ~100 points, and I just threw in the third tactical squad because I had the points.




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I could always go cliche I guess and throw a pfist on each tac squad. Seems kind of overkill with two terminator squads though.

You sisters in rhinos need heavy flamers

Sorry, the list has been updated - because of the rules involved, the sisters are already gone.

Ricter wrote:Also, does Vulkan negate the GKT shrouding if he joins their unit? I hope not.

Special Rules, page 49, BRB: ... the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independant character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit.

I'd reckon that Vulkan would stick out like a sore thumb when in a unit of Grey Knights despite how pious their prayers to not be seen were.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I saw that ruling, was just hoping there was something somewhere else that overrode it.

I wonder then if it's going to be worth it taking two HQ's then - one of them gets stuck with the gkt and negates their abilities, or they get stuck footslogging.

Well, if you had to break coherency then at least you'd be getting a cover save from the GKTs in front of Vulkan.

I guess I can drop the libby and give the BC a hood too.

I just feel like this list is kind of floundering with the loss of the sisters, I'm just not familiar enough to feel comfortable with my GK choices.

Cutting the libby, moving the hood gives me 200 points to play with. Could even cut the vindicator for 315 points, but I'll be damned if I know what to spend it on.


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If I can get up to 350(240 + 120 + -10) I could change the LRC to an LRR, drop the AT to 5, and get another 5 AT in another LRR.

Keep the Vindicator--these guys really come into their own in bigger games where there's less room to spread out and greater likelihood of a prime target being fielded.

If you drop the Librarian definitely spend the points on more Troops. If not, I would suggest taking Gate of Infinity to maximize the mobility of your scoring units. You can use this power to nab objectives on the last turn after you've been playing more conservatively to keep the units alive.

Clarification on the GK force weapon rule: The rule states that upon a successful Psychic test, one model which was wounded by the Grand Master (or BC in this case) is immediately removed from the game.

So it does not "kill" the target, but destroys it outright in a sense I suppose. Removing it from the game is the key phrase that gets around Eternal Warrior


As for having 2 HQs: I would recommend just footslogging the Termies then. You can always run them right behind a LR or other suitable vehicle to keep them out of LoS of the heavy stuff. Or you can rely on The Shrouding to keep them out of harms way until you get close enough to return fire. Or if you're feeling particularly nasty, you could always toss Shrike in there, if only for the Fleet ability to all your forces.

Correct me on that if I'm mistaken.

As for the GK Termies themselves, I recommend the Grand Master, since he comes with the Force Weapon and gets a psychic power from the list. Scourging is a good choice since it is assault, and the termie squad can have Holocaust for 20pts. (if you feel like it)



And for your troops: If you really feel like it, you can always take the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers for 10pts each with an additional 10 if you want the Veteran Sarge. They're alright, having the old hellguns (S3 AP5 Range: 24" , Rapid Fire) targeters and frag grenades (they may have Krak grenades but I forget). So they arent bad for some frontline guys to throw volume fire at something, while keeping your assault units more mobile. Plus they can either footslog or be put into a Chimera or Rhino (albeit both are more expensive than the updated codices)

Just some ideas for ya

Okay, vind stays for now.

If I keep the libby, take GoI and ...? Vortex seems like an auto include with Terminator Armor, but Null Zone has a lot of utility, more in line with the libby's role. I was honestly expecting to take NZ and VoD, but you make a good point regarding Vortex. Can a squad move into coherency with him and then have him transport all of them?

I still have that matter of 80 points if I keep the libby as well, and my troops aren't that cheap. Maybe I could just take a squad of WoN spinegaunts and hope no one notices.

I'm confused as to what exactly you are planning on running now, so can't really comment. Can you post an updated list?

*Generic comments incoming*

If you really want GKTs, then take them. I wouldn't go out of my way to include them, as two regular ThunderShield Terms are enough pressure. If you are dreading Lash...well stay mounted and take a utility libby inside a LR parked in the middle of the field to provide maximum coverage. Really though, you will only deflect 33% of the time though....so not exactly great odds. Does help though (I know this from experience!)

Obvious powers are Null Zone and Gate of Infinity....but libbys really work best when coupled with Sternguard. Put them in a Land Raider at game start if going second, wait to see what you want dead...then GOI out of Raider and combi-melta/rapid fire 2+ wound something to death. I would also add that a full unit of Sternguard with combi melta in a Vulkan list....is pretty damn mean. 5 points for a twin linked melta? Yes please. Then simply GOI out of combat if they try to tie you up.

So...are you set on the GKs? Or was that passing fancy?

Sorry, see below for my "updated" list. I also have a list above that I'm considering, but it's short on points.

I'm not set on the GK. Originally I was going to mix and match them with the sisters, but obviously now the sisters are gone. For reference, I'm not set on anything, except that I'm playing a Vulkan list with decent melee capability.

I've considered the Sternguard option, but I'm not sure where to generate the points for them. I could slim the two terminator squads and trim the librarian I suppose. I've never used them, so that's why they weren't in the list to start.

Okay, I'm not sure if you have the models but I figured I'd post up a potential list for you:

HQ:
Vulkan (190)

Grey Knight Brother Captain with storm bolter NPW & Psychic hood + 4 GK Terminator Squad with 1 incenerator (280)

Elite:
7 Man Assault terminator squad in a land raider crusader with extra armor & multimelta (555)

Inqusitor with 2 mystics in a rhino with smoke launchers (85)

Troops:

10 man tac squad with Multi Melta & Melta gun & Combi Melta in a rhino (220)

10 man tac squad with Multi Melta & Melta gun & Combi Melta in a rhino (220)

5 man scout squad with combat blades, sgt has a combi melta & power fist (110)

Fast attack:

2 Heavy Flamer/ MultiMelta Land speeders (140)

2 Heavy Flamer/ MultiMelta Land speeders (140)

1 Land speeder Storm with Multi Melta (65)

Heavy Support:

Land Raider redeemer with Extra Armor & Multi Melta (265)

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)


You have the GT Psycic hood with unlimited range, the ability to put vulkan with either the grey knights or the assault terminators depending on what you want to do that game. The ability to either scout & assault first turn with the storm & scouts, or to outflank to make sure at least one scorining unit lives until later in the game.

The vindicators & multi Meltas can start the attack, and the inq + mystics will give deamons or other deepstrikers fits.


18-20 KP 9 Multi Meltas, 3 combi meltas, 2 melta guns. If you don't like the inquesitor squad just drop them and a combi melta & melta gun, make the terminators an elite choice & add back in the null zone libby for 100 points. Personally I like the anti deep strike ability better then null zone.

So then maybe something like this?

HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with AT
Librarian (100): Gate of Infinity, Null Zone. "Rides" with Sternguard

ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Grey Knight Terminators, 5(245): Storm Bolters and Nemesis Force Weapon. Rides in LRR
Sternguard, 7(190): Combi-Melta, Meltagun x2. "Rides" with Librarian

TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2500 pts, 59 models, 4/6 Scoring, 16 KP, 14 Meltas, 4 h/flamers and 4 1-shot meltas



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Also, the Shrike trick doesn't work since I'm using Vulkan. Storm troopers seem kind of inferior to sisters tbh, especially in my list.

Thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming.


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@asugradinwa: That list looks very vulnerable with only the two tactical squads as real scoring units, as the scouts are going to die very easily.

I like the cheap deepstriking defense, but it's basically 2 KP and 85 points down the drain if the enemy isn't deepstriking.

Also, have you had success with the double vindicator? It seems like I'm rather cluttered already for space.

Ricter wrote:So then maybe something like this?

HQ
Vulkan (190): . Rides with AT
Librarian (100): Gate of Infinity, Null Zone. "Rides" with Sternguard

ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5(200): Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Grey Knight Terminators, 5(245): Storm Bolters and Nemesis Force Weapon. Rides in LRR
Sternguard, 7(190): Combi-Melta, Meltagun x2. "Rides" with Librarian

TROOPS
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, 2(140): Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer.

HS
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Land Raider Redeemer, 1(250): Multi-Melta
Vindicator, 1(115):

Total: 2500 pts, 59 models, 4/6 Scoring, 16 KP, 14 Meltas, 4 h/flamers and 4 1-shot meltas

Looking pretty strong. A couple (Yet more!) suggestions. Again, take this stuff as humble advice....not telling you how to play your army. I just get the feeling you're starting to fail your Shiny Things save. I was just mentioning how best to use Sternguard...not that I would necessarily add them if you are just out to win. I play them to have fun...as they are still semi-competitive. I guess to save time, I should just post the list I'll likely take to Ard Boyz.
Here are my thoughts;


HQ
Vulkan

ELITE
Assault Terminators, 5: Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR
Assault Terminators, 5: Thunder hammers and Storm Shields. Rides in LRR

TROOP
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.
Tactical Squad, 10(220): Meltagun, Las-Cannon, Sgt w/ Combi-Melta, Rhino.

FA
2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer
2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer
2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer

HEAVY
Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi
Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi
Vindicator




I'll update my Tactica with this list...provided test games go well!

And you'd definitely be right - like I said, I kind of lost my way, having planned this list for quite awhile, only to have the sisters idea shot down.

I'll think on your suggestions before I comment or adjust.

Part of the reason I'm scrambling is I don't like running straight cookie-cutter lists - I like to vary them, put my own twist on them. That was the sisters, and now I'm trying to find it again.

I like the list, here are some suggestions for you:

Go with the BC or even the GM as his force weapon allows you to insta kill ANY model (read his rules, they do not cause instant death but have unique rules, so he can wipe out anything), plus the unlimited range hood makes him a great tool.

I like LRC's over LRR's, they are more effective for my money. The ability to move and shoot everything and the inability of LRR flamers to hit the same target makes them less appealing in my eyes. Even a LR is better IMO as they give you some needed long range punch.

I would swap out one tac squad to have a flamer and combi flamer.

I would highly suggest taking the dozer blade for the vindies, for 10 points they are too good not to.

A libby with gate and termies or sternguard is fantastic. I use one with a 10 man termie squad with 2 assault cannons, they are a fantastic tool, especially when combined with teleport homers (and yes, the two work together). Plus, the termies are more resilient and better in assault. However, in this case, i would go with the grey knight character as he provides so much more punch to take out big nasties. Plus, you can take the sternguard in a pod if you like and give them all combi meltas for a brutal first turn alpha strike.

I think you will do well with the list though, good luck to you.

I'm really getting confused here - person after person has mentioned the BC's force weapon insta kills any model, yet the NFW entry clear states he does not have a high enough rank to have the NFW count as a force weapon.

We're all just getting lax with the labels. You are correct; only the Grand Master has a force weapon. The Brother Captain is just S6 power weapon like any other GKT.

AgeofEgos, your tac squads should be 5 points cheaper, or have meltas in them.

Ricter wrote:AgeofEgos, your tac squads should be 5 points cheaper, or have meltas in them.

Ahh, ignore the quoted cost...that was a hold over from the quote function on your original. The list clocks in at 2500 on the spot.

I figured as much.

If you're having problems coming up with what you want to play, just sit and think on this question for a few:

What do you want to do with your army?



Sure there's the standard "Have Fun" answer, but I mean objectively. Do you have the most fun assaulting things, or shooting? Do you like tons of vehicles (I do )


Just a thought to help ya out if you need it.

Best of luck! I'll be monitoring this list's development

If you are going to take an LRC then you should take Chronus as well. With 2500 points to play with the additional 70 points is just too good to pass up... BS5 means those hurricane bolters are dead hard plus the same for the multi melta plus I believe you ignore all stunned and shaken results so you get extra armor built into his cost.

Could you please ask the TO if the NFW does indeed bypass the Eternal Warrior? I have been involved in a debate about this and would to hear an 'official' answer. I would fit in an incinerator... You are almost certain to run into a daemon army and this could easily wipe out close to an entire daemon pack with one shot. I think packing a psycannon as well would be very beneficial versus the Fateweaver as you are almost guaranteed to wound him. The major drawback to taking Grey Knights is that against daemons they can recycle after you kill them. There is another debate about daemons counting as daemons in regards to the wording in the DH codex but I would bet that daemons will be able to recycle regardless as to how the DH codex defines them. You have their aegis suits as well which is a built-in defense versus lash! They are almost a must have unit for this tournament. If you just ran normal GKs in power armor then you would have another scoring unit. I think you'll need at least four scoring units for the ard Boyz. As good as GKTs are they are still expensive for what you get at this point level and against certain races they'll get p0wned in assault. Personally I would rather have another scoring unit.

Since you are running Vulkan the thunder hammer terminators are a must have unit. I would run one squad of ten and you can combat squad them... This will allow you to squeeze in another elite unit if need be.

why pay 70 points to add BS5 to a tank that has all its weapons twin linked already? Extra armor is good enough in most situations as it will keep you moving. All chronus will do is make a very accurate tank slightly more accurate and make it so you can shoot one more gun when stunned. I personally would rather take another speeder for his points cost.

While I disagree with GBF's opinion on how the GM's NFW works he is right that you should clear it up with the TO before you go there expectin it to do something it doesnt.