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So, after having a year of playing 5th Edition, I decided to look back over my record. One thing stuck out - the vast number of draws I've recorded.

So are my opponents and I just very evenly matched? Are we not playing aggressive enough? Or, are ties just more common now with the 5th edition rules?

I'm guessing it's a mix of all three, but thought I would see if anyone else has any thoughts....

Mez

I've had so many draws in objective missions facing tyranids it isn't funny, though I have a fair amount of draws in other types of games as well. My rage for WoN gaunts, when I am not the one using them, is incredible. By god, it's horrible.

I too have recorded many draws. The criteria for contesting an objective is far too... open I guess.

The criteria for holding one is too disgusting too. ONLY troops as scoring units. Horrible.

I have more draws than wins and loses combine.

The real question is:

Are draws occuring because both sides have no actual scoring units left (ie. default draw), or because the meta has shifted to the point where people bulk up on troops and because everyone has so many, draws are more likely to occur.

Or, third option, because you can contest with anything, meaning that games end with everything contested rather than held.

I really hope it's not the first option.

Well HBMC its a good point.

However the codex's gear you towards getting more troops in your army, well the new ones especially imo.
Marines - You have to take tac squads in 1500 me and everyone else i know run 3 minimum
Guard - The amount of troop options they have you really have to take alot.
Orks - basic boyz are too good to pass up on really

I don't think i've ever played a game where there has been no scoring units left at the end of the game, that just sounds wierd.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The real question is:

Are draws occuring because both sides have no actual scoring units left (ie. default draw), or because the meta has shifted to the point where people bulk up on troops and because everyone has so many, draws are more likely to occur.

Or, third option, because you can contest with anything, meaning that games end with everything contested rather than held.

I really hope it's not the first option.

Third option! Blame the mech eldar. Though I have been in games where option 1 came into play. They were serious meat grinders.

I think it's GW trying to design a game where no one's feelings are hurt.....

I've so far recorded only 1 draw and nearly 50 wins since 5th rolled out, always won by removing my opponants entire army from the table (black templars in CC,) the one draw being in a kill points mission. this could well be because my opponents are'nt that great or just because templars are a bit of a sledgehammer army but in other games at my LGS i've noticed the same thing very few folk draw. The other reason behind this could be that given the choice between a safe drws or a gamble of a win we always go for the win even if its a very slim chance of pulling it off and could cost the game.

Sirius42 has a good point. My group also plays aggressively and will always go for the risky win over the safe draw, but I've noticed over the years in forums that other 40k players seem to be somewhat risk-adverse.

I think it's because a lot of competitive players run mech lists. Because a mech unit can zip around really fast, they can jump onto an objective and contest it far too easily.

One of the missions is set up to end in a draw. It's the one where you each have one objective in your deployment zone. There is absolutely no reason to leave your objective, or for your opponent to leave theirs. I think the best strategy is to take fast units and try to contest their objective, while they do the same to you. That's got 'draw' written all over it.

That and the ability for fast stuff to contest objectives makes it easy to nullify that unit of troops holding an objective. Maybe there should be a rule that an objective held by troops cannot be contested, except by enemy troops?

When its a basecamp mission my friends and I (friendly games) generally roll a dice as a joke at the beginning of the game to see who is gonna win the moral victory.

I think it's not just mechanized eldar lists to blame for all the draws. It's all the mechanized lists in general. Everyone is zooming around staying out of the battle rather than getting stuck in.

You saddle up against a guard player these days and instead of staring down 100+ flashlights and some big guns you now see a bunch of av12 skimmers and 4 or five units of vets. As cool as it looks, it just doesn't feel right.

Mech armies are here to stay for the time being, but don't worry. After enough people buy up all those Valks, falcons, immolators and LRs (other transports left out in the interest of space), 6th edition will arrive and armor will suddenly go the way of the buffalo, the Lord of Change will become the "must use" model for chaos players, and eldar armies will feature swooping hawks and warp spiders in all the tourneys. The only thing that will remain a constant is the power of the foot slogging ork boy.

I have a lot of ties too.

One of the reasons why is that when I am outmatch by my opponents army (which happened a lot), I concentrate on killing off their troops.

Although it will give me a chance at the win, it most often ends up in a draw.

augustus5 wrote:I think it's not just mechanized eldar lists to blame for all the draws. It's all the mechanized lists in general. Everyone is zooming around staying out of the battle rather than getting stuck in.

You saddle up against a guard player these days and instead of staring down 100+ flashlights and some big guns you now see a bunch of av12 skimmers and 4 or five units of vets. As cool as it looks, it just doesn't feel right.

Mech armies are here to stay for the time being, but don't worry. After enough people buy up all those Valks, falcons, immolators and LRs (other transports left out in the interest of space), 6th edition will arrive and armor will suddenly go the way of the buffalo, the Lord of Change will become the "must use" model for chaos players, and eldar armies will feature swooping hawks and warp spiders in all the tourneys. The only thing that will remain a constant is the power of the foot slogging ork boy.

Mech armies? Pah, no mech army feths with a dozen lascannons and gets away with it.

I don't know. I also have not had many draws. In fact, I've noticed a terrible amount of tabling in 5th edition. Probably due to the fact that the kids I end up playing with at the bunker
A) Probably suck/can't deal with aggressive Night Lords (dunno)
B) First words out of their mouth "Want to just play annihilation?"
"-sigh- If we must."

A lot of people seem to dislike objective games. I don't know why. I tend to prefer them, as I feel like it gives you something to actually fight over.

Also, Kill Points are stupid.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think it's not just mechanized eldar lists to blame for all the draws. It's all the mechanized lists in general. Everyone is zooming around staying out of the battle rather than getting stuck in.

You saddle up against a guard player these days and instead of staring down 100+ flashlights and some big guns you now see a bunch of av12 skimmers and 4 or five units of vets. As cool as it looks, it just doesn't feel right.

Mech armies are here to stay for the time being, but don't worry. After enough people buy up all those Valks, falcons, immolators and LRs (other transports left out in the interest of space), 6th edition will arrive and armor will suddenly go the way of the buffalo, the Lord of Change will become the "must use" model for chaos players, and eldar armies will feature swooping hawks and warp spiders in all the tourneys. The only thing that will remain a constant is the power of the foot slogging ork boy.

Mech armies? Pah, no mech army feths with a dozen lascannons and gets away with it.

A BS4 lascannon's chance to kill a smoked rhino is: 2/3 to hit, times 2/3 to pen, times 1/3 to destroy, times 1/2 chance to have the hit saved=7.4% chance to destroy.

So, against an opponent whose rhinos are all smoked/in cover, it statistically takes your whole army of 12 lascannons to kill one of his rhinos.

Lascannons aren't that great against mech.

Which is why we have orders.

And it's fairly unlikely that every rhino in the army would be in cover.

And if lascannons fail, I have Devil Dogs.

Mech IG don't really seem that powerful. So what if you can take vets in chimeras with three meltaguns, they're only strength/toughness 3 with a 5+ save.

They go down like twigs outside of their transports.

Every game of Capture and Control I have seen or played ended in a draw. The others have results more often than not in my personal experience.

Elric of Grans wrote:Every game of Capture and Control I have seen or played ended in a draw. The others have results more often than not in my personal experience.

I just won a Capture and Control the other day. I only have 3 troops units in my Eldar army, and they're all T3. I've won a 5 objective Seize Ground with two troops units, against a 7 troops-IG army at the last tourney I attended.

If you think farther ahead than your next movement phase you'll do better.

I play a mech Eldar army, I either get wiped of the board or wipe my opponent of the board. As such there tends to be little amount of draws. (The few draws I have had tend to be against other mech armies, were we end up taking each others objectives)

H.B.M.C. wrote:The real question is:

Are draws occuring because both sides have no actual scoring units left (ie. default draw), or because the meta has shifted to the point where people bulk up on troops and because everyone has so many, draws are more likely to occur.

Or, third option, because you can contest with anything, meaning that games end with everything contested rather than held.

I really hope it's not the first option.

I've found the great weight of games (in playing WITH demons or eldar) has been the ability to contest objectives. Because only a few units can claim an objective, its substantially easier for me to contest and gain a draw.

you really have to play the mission each time. Most people are still just playing "shoot that thing!" and not really picking targets.

you need to know the mission and play accordingly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The real question is:

Are draws occuring because both sides have no actual scoring units left (ie. default draw), or because the meta has shifted to the point where people bulk up on troops and because everyone has so many, draws are more likely to occur.

Or, third option, because you can contest with anything, meaning that games end with everything contested rather than held.

I really hope it's not the first option.

For me it's a mix of 1 and 3.

The troops get nuked down to a squad or two, but usually one or none.

THEN the remaining units converge on the other guy's remaining 1-2 squads of troops to contest. I have 17 draws, 3 wins, 6 losses as bugs. That's almost double my combined win/loss.

Maybe it's because people aren't playing aggressively enough early in the game. They're trying to conserve their resources, which makes it so that by the time they start to act it's too late.

People not being aggressive enough is part of the problem. I had a game tie because my opponent bunkered his objective and only dropped a dread on mine to contest. He wasn't willing to lose and so it would have been suicide to try to dig out 50 BAs.

Random Game Length makes the game very unpredictable. C&C is partly to blame, few armies are fast enough and strong enough to take the opponents objective when it is in the backfield. And as Blackmoor said, all you have to do is kill their troops off if you think you can't win the objective. Troops should have additional advantages built into the rules set to make them stand out from the more elite crowd. Making them the only scorers just puts a giant target over their heads.

here, there are more wins/losses than draws.....

I have more win/loss results (luckily mostly wins) with IG (last dex and this one), Space marines, and eldar in 5th ed, and this applies to several other players here, mech eldar or no mech eldar...and games range from 500 up to 2000 pts...

I guess we play more aggressively (I know I do), and the spare guardian jetbike squad or 2 also helps...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WC_Brian wrote:
People not being aggressive enough is part of the problem. I had a game tie because my opponent bunkered his objective and only dropped a dread on mine to contest. He wasn't willing to lose and so it would have been suicide to try to dig out 50 BAs.

Random Game Length makes the game very unpredictable. C&C is partly to blame, few armies are fast enough and strong enough to take the opponents objective when it is in the backfield. And as Blackmoor said, all you have to do is kill their troops off if you think you can't win the objective. Troops should have additional advantages built into the rules set to make them stand out from the more elite crowd. Making them the only scorers just puts a giant target over their heads.

Troops have 1 advantage..they have 6 slots....I think people have to get used to play with troops better....

Marines have the additional advantage of combat squads, which may suck for annihilation games but definitely help for objective games...

I play eldar with as much troops as possible..remember, excellent units such as rangers are also troops, but I always keep a guardian jetbike squad with a shuricannon as a distraction factor, and as last minute claimers as necessary..ditto for a squad of guardian storm with fusion guns in a wave serpent..

I've played to a few draws recently with my new mechanized guard. Once was against a Chaos army kitted out with melta bomb chosen, and the other was one a 40" by 36" table against some Tyranids. Other than that we have had a few games that were nearly fought back to a draw but fell short, and others that were total victories.

Part of the randomness is that we use a lot of proxied armies when my friends and I play so we can have players going from Nids, to Chaos Daemons, to Guard anytime they feel like trying a new list.