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I played Mech Vets in the finals of a local tourney last weekend...was a win by one KP but was honestly due to lucky dice and a couple of major mistakes on my opponents part (Which he stated after he realized what he did). He's a good player and had he played as he normally does, would have likely been a nasty game for my marines. In addition, a good friend played him with a very competitive CSM lash list....and was practically tabled by turn 4.

During our game, I got second turn...and despite his astro placed everything in reserve. He was running 3X Vendetta/MeltaVets/Chims/Russ/Bassie, etc. Probably what will be a typically competitive IG list, everything mounted up. I ran Mech/Vulkan marines with the usual goodies. After the game though, we bullshiated about the nastiness of that IG build...and got me thinking how it will be handled. Thunder Terms did well, as all of the low AP, low ROF weapons did little. I'm thinking two squads delivered into the lines would have been pretty devestating, as the one squad did quite well.

What's everyone experiences so far against Mech/Melta/Vendetta IG? Thoughts?

Like most transports, Chimeras and Valkyries are fragile. AV12 is not fun when your opponent is packing lots of lascannons or multi-meltas.

What's more, once their transport is gone or they disembark, the Vets will die extremely fast. T3 with a 5+ save on a ten-man squad isn't going to work outside of a vehicle.

I bring a *lot* of lascannons, two Vanquishers, and two Vendettas so I can kill almost every transport on turn 1 or 2.

Their weakness is the average gamers wallet.

Vulkan Marines make for a great game against Mechvets. It is definitely a game that both sides can win.

I'm also scared of Mechdar (Jetcouncils are tough to deal with sometimes too) and massed Railguns.

That is about it so far, at least as far as my playtesting has shown.

Marines can handle up on Mechvet pretty well with a Vulcan or Drop List. Cover saves are pretty easy to come by with 5th edition and Snipers really hurt heavy weapons teams as well as normal squads.

Yeah, a well built vulcan marines list is one of the best matchups against mech vet. It really comes down to who has better deployment and target prioity, if thats equal then it really comes down to luck of the die (unless it's sallies on wheels, they own mech vet big time)

MSU Fast/ Shooty demons are another very bad matchup.

9x Broadsides + 10x Death Rains + 16 Pathfinders
perhaps the worst matchup althouh that army gets badly owned by most of the rest of the top tier armies.

Masses Lascannon IG can be a tough one, although again lascannon gunline is very weak against most of the rest of the top tier.

Bike Council Mechdar may be propelled to the top by Mech IG as it matches up well with all the armies that do best against IG and has answeres for Mech Vet as well.

bigtmac68 wrote:Bike Council Mechdar may be propelled to the top by Mech IG as it matches up well with all the armies that do best against IG and has answeres for Mech Vet as well.

I posted this in the Falcon thread, but I probably should repeat it here. I just don't feel like the eldar have enough guns/killy stuff in a mech list to do much harm to a mech IG list. (Actually I feel like the eldar don't have much killy stuff period.) Please prove me wrong, because I keep looking at my eldar list and looking at these mech marine/IG lists and I'm not liking the odds.

While it's true the eldar can play denial like nobody's business, at some point they have to kill something, and that's where I always seem to find them lacking. Even with an uber seer council, I always feel like thats the only unit that is doing anything for me, while my troops hide in their transports and the prisms take potshots at stuff.

For example, against bigmac's IG list, it would go like this. This makes no difference if I'm in reserve or not, the second I come on the board, I'm gonna eat lead.

-He shoots his entire army of hell (Chimera's, Vendettas, Hydra's, Heavy Weapons, etc) at me on my turn. I lose a serpent and get stunned on a bunch of other stuff. On my turn, I turbo boost with the council, and shoot with a couple prisms, hopefully killing something.
- On his next turn, he volleys back with everything, downing another vehicle probably and stunning everything else. I multicharge a couple chimeras with my council, and potshot a few other things with Prisms.
- On his next turn, he volleys back with everything. I'm running out of tanks/infantry and I've only killed a couple of his Chimeras so far, and it's only turn 3-4.

Seriously, this looks like I'm gonna get shut down on turn 4-5, and possibly tabled on 5-6. How do you cope with that? And if I took a falcon, I'd only have it left, so I could contest/score one objective at the end of the game to all the rest of his. If it's KP, then the falcon preserved me 2KP, but he got all the rest.

Seriously, what do you do?

Well, as I stated in my OP, I ran a competitive Vulkan list....but the main problem is not blowing up tanks.....but more surviving the first turn against a properly built MechVetVendetta list. I think he had around 9-10 twin linked las cannons + 6-7 other las cannons, then multiple melta squads. I don't rightfully know many armies that can trade long-range shots against this list.

As I stated, I went reserve alpha-strike...since he only had one astropath. However, even then there were a few moments I thought I would get tabled....I had some really lucky reserve rolls.

I think an optimized MechVetVendetta list is going to be a killer. Maybe 'the build'.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also add I'm not looking for a 'this list can beat MechVetVendetta'. I'm looking out how the meta/all comer lists are going to adjust for this list....or if it's even possible to adjust without tailoring (It might not be).

To beat Mech Vet the formula is simple

Kill the Chimeras First.

That is what it boils down to, if you can stop the Chims before they cross mid board, you should win.

I know no one belives me on that ( which is good since Im a Mech Vet player) but thats how it works.

What Big T said.

Really? Why do you need to cross the board (Early game, not late game to objective grab)? AV 12 Vendetta triple linked las would be my high priority.

bigtmac68 wrote:To beat Mech Vet the formula is simple

Kill the Chimeras First.

That is what it boils down to, if you can stop the Chims before they cross mid board, you should win.

I know no one belives me on that ( which is good since Im a Mech Vet player) but thats how it works.

Kill the Chimeras First.

Bigtmac is right, kill the Chimeras and you chop the legs out from under the Guard. Without the 4-5 Chimeras to act as anti-charge and objective grabbers the list falls apart. Hit that easy to kill AV 10 side armor and pop them quickly.

Some people may question this, as it still leaves Valkyries and LRBTs on the board. The answer is simple once examined more closely. Most Mech Vet lists center around concentrated Anti Tank firepower to rid the enemy of armor early in the game, destroying the enemy's mobility and fire bases. The typical response to this is to attempt to destroy the Guard heavy hitters, a.k.a. the Vendettas and Leman Russ Battle Tanks. This leaves the Chimera battle force to wander around unmolested, dropping off 4 flamer PCSs and 4 Plasma CCSs and generally causing havoc / grabbing objectives.

If you destroy these Chimeras then you leave the Guard virtually immobilized. Sure, the Vendettas may still have vets in them but think of it as the flailing arms of a legless man. Sure he might be able to reach out and scratch ya, but in the long run those vets cannot hold an objective against virtually any infantry unit.

Kill the Chimeras.

Most mechanized lists concentrate on short ranged weaponry or assault. By takeing out the transport, your eliminating their ability to get those weapons in to effective range. 3 melta guns arn't very scary from 36" away.

Even takeing out a few of their transports can hamper their army, preventing a coordinated attack and forcing them to come in picemeal. In addion, may mechanized players aren't well practiced on moving footsloging troops.

This doesn't just apply to MechVet, but to all mechanized armies.

9 Twin Linked Las Cannons + 7 other normal Las Cannons + multiple Multi-Laser shots.....I really don't know what armies (All comer lists) can trade shots with this across the board? IG doesn't need to rely on short-ranged melta, they use it in conjunction with a great deal of down-range shots (from what I've seen so far). Thoughts?

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Most mechanized lists concentrate on short ranged weaponry or assault. By takeing out the transport, your eliminating their ability to get those weapons in to effective range. 3 melta guns arn't very scary from 36" away.

Even takeing out a few of their transports can hamper their army, preventing a coordinated attack and forcing them to come in picemeal. In addion, may mechanized players aren't well practiced on moving footsloging troops.

This doesn't just apply to MechVet, but to all mechanized armies.

I think that if people were willing to put the proper points into their mechanized veteran units they would have no Achilles' heel, however people want to max out on tanks instead and unfortunately this further plays into the inherent weakness of guard; that is, they are weak in assault.

Big T is an advocate of using mechanized veteran units as short ranged shooting, rolling up in the chimeras and blasting away with 3x meltagun per unit. Sure 3x meltagun coupled with BS4 is very strong but then again it is only good at short range... So indeed if this style list has the bulk of their transports popped early on you are in trouble.

Think on this... in many ways a veteran squad is better than a Space Marine tactical squad:

- You can field 3x meltagun at BS4 as stated above.
- The chimera is a better transport than either the rhino or razorback.

Now suppose you were to equip each veteran squad with a power fist, lascannon, krak and frag grenades. My Space Marine tactical squads have these upgrades. By strategically placing the objectives you should be able to move some of your transports on top of them early in the game, you control them and now dictate how the game will be played. Your opponent must move towards you to contest or wrest control of these objectives. 0nce on top of the objectives you can pillbox, shot the lascannons from inside your chimeras. Lascannons are great against lightly armored transports. If the opponent does move up close you can counter assault and now the upgrades I mentioned above start to pay big dividends. If you were to take Straken your veterans are the equivalent of Space Marines on the charge... that could be huge.

Do you absolutely need 3x meltagun per unit? No you don't, you can't split fire and two meltas will wreck any armor most of the time at short range.

So the way I see it you could field your veterans as I have described above to mitigate any weaknesses. I know this won't be popular but I would bet that some of the top guard players will include an element of this approach to designing their armies.

G

GBF I think your post is interesting for sure, and something to think about (need to run numbers on it). I never considered bothering with powerfists because they die so fast once forced fro mthe transport that I didn't figure the sarge ever getting a chance to swing with it. I always considered it more of a reactionary thing rather than flat out leaving my transport to charge something though. Vets (and other IG for that matter) are simple bad in CC. Without a bubble from Straken or order from Creed, they don't really scare a tactical squad even if they charge it. I suspect that even with a powerfist, a vet squad without a boost from Creed/Straken will get beat up by marines, even if they charge. Shooting those meltaguns on the way in might make enough of a difference though.

Also 3 Meltaguns at BS4 average a dead tank of any armor value (assuming you're shooting at 1/2 range). IMO for 10pts to put the odds overwhelmingly in your favor, it is completely worth taking 3 meltaguns instead of 2 whenever possible with vet squads.

I would definitely take Straken for the force bubble. If you don't want to close combat element then forgo the power fists but take the lascannons. Pillboxing on top of objectives is powerful. If you think about veteran squads are very similar to tactical Space Marines.

G

If you can space out to avoid the multi-charges, 3 meltas per squad over a few squads can also put the hurt on MEQ's, more than 2 meltas per squad.

4 vet squads x 3 meltas = 12 meltas
4 vet squads x 2 meltas = 8 meltas

12 meltas at BS4 kills alot of stuff, not just tanks, alot more than 8 meltas. Also, if you have the lascannon, it's not shooting while the tank is moving, or the turn they disembark, or any of that, while the melta can. Since you can't combat squad vets like marines, the heavy weapon isn't as useful to sit back and fire away, and you have lascannons on vendettas.

I suppose. What do foot-tank combined IG do then?

I currently run two lascannons in each blobbed squad with a CCS nearby to provide BiD! orders, making the LCs much more effective. For heavy anti-tank, I run two Vanquishers, one with Pask and both with hull lascannons and plasma sponsons. Sure, it's pretty damn expensive, but they both have range 72" meltaguns, one at BS 4 and S 9, S 9/10 lascannons, and S7/8 AP2 sponsons. They can pop most tanks with impunity, and have a tally of four land raiders, three monoliths, and eight Chimeras under their belts from just four games.

It's an impressive sight.

Weaknesses are flanks and troops that die if you sneeze at them. The long sides of the chimera's hurt. Pillboxing won't work unless your flanks are fully secured since if they start down your flank they can used destroyed tanks for cover the whole way.

You don't get it. In an objective based mission you can play to get on top of the objectives early in the game then pillbox inside the chimeras and fire the lascannons. You should be able to reach an objective by the first turn if you place yours correctly. You don't have to play this style all of the time but the lascannon gives you an option you don't have with all those meltaguns. If you want 3x meltagun you can still take a lascannon as well. Personally I think 2x meltagun is good enough if you build your list to have some decent close combat element you can fall back on if necessary. Like I said with Straken your units are just as good as a Marine if they can charge. You are going to charge in with at least a couple units as well. So far this concept has not seemed to be recognized amongst the vast majority but again I think the best lists will have this aspect designed into their armies. It's always better to be well rounded than simply do one thing well which is what mech guard players don't seem to realize yet for whatever reason. Personally I think they are basically min maxing their lists at this point.

G

I'd think MechVets would have some trouble with Tau. The Tau have a lot of stuff that can stay on the move, beat up on their tanks, and then S5AP5 is tailor made to kill Guardsmen.

There was a thread earlier about a Tau list that ran 15 Devilfish, many with Fusion Blasters. While I don't feel this is a great list, it would play spectacularly against MechVets.

Even without that, Hammerheads and Broadsides will be murder, and even Deathrain suits can mess up Chimeras.

The big problem with MechVets is that stopping them, while not necessarily easy, is straightforward in theory. As has been said, you kill the Chimeras. Get enough in turn 1, and you're probably going to win.

@GBF

I agree a balanced list is essential. It can't all be mech vet steaming up the field. I run a platoon of standard guard w/a few HWS of autocannons with my mech. I don't add cc ability because it lets me field more models not too but as people adjust you'll see more people shift to the more balanced list that guard offers even it's mech armies.

@Phryxis

It was 15 pirahnas but I do think a smooth and fast tau army is a great match up for mech guard.

How about deepstriking Stormtroopers with meltas to compliment the vets... would that help them out much?


EDIT: Forget it... deepstriking means they'll come in the next turn or later and that might be too late by then.

It was 15 pirahnas but I do think a smooth and fast tau army is a great match up for mech guard.

Right, mistype. For some reason I always type Devilfish when I mean Hammerhead. Apparently now my brain has switched over to Piranha.

@gbf

I have tried the lascannon route a few times but they almost never get to fire. A big part of that is my play style with is highly agressive and highly mobile. This tactical style is perfectly suited to Mech Vet.

I think that is why I do so well with them. Attack, Attack, always Attack. As for the CC route I really see it as wasted points every time you try to kit guard out for hth. In fact I do very well with just basic infantry squads, when used properly and at the right time. HtH should always be a last resort, and spending points based on the failure of your strategy seems to me to be throwing good points after bad.

I would rather go the Ogryn in a Chimera with Yarik route than spend 90 points on PFs for my veterans.

You know my mantra with guard.

Just shoot the bastards!!!

I can see the silo lascannon approach having merit, but it just works totally against the way I play.

I am fortunate that most people feel exactly as age of egos does and focus on the "scary flyers" and the tanks. And I of course have my ways of keeping that focus there.

The end result is the same though, if you have lascannons or not, if the chimeras are destroyed, you will loose with Mech Vet as once the guardsmen are out of the picture your only effective defense against the enemy infantry ( to which your tanks and or artillery are terribly vulnerable)

@Cheese Elemental,

Guyspam is a perfectly valid build, it has its own weaknesses, they are just very different than the weaknesses of Mech Vet but it still boils down to proper target priority.

The mistake most people make with target priority is to target the biggest threat to them first. That is the wrong approach, you dont target what scares you the most first, you target what he NEEDS the most first. Select your targets to disable his strategy then everything else will fall into place from there.

I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

Well that's just it. That's a wall of armor and dakka coming at you. For example, the IG player will have 3-5 more vehicles than a mechdar or mech tau player, and the IG vehicles have 3 guns per on average to the eldar and tau's 1-2 guns. Being AV12 in the front means that unless you go for flank shots, (which looks kinda tough based on a wall of chimeras) you'll be stunning/immobilizing chimera's at best, and they'll be doing the same back to you.

Now, coupled with the chimera vets packing meltas, and your eldar and tau packing, not meltas, means that your eldar and tau infantry have alot less ways to crack the armor, and their vehicles with the big guns will spend most of the game stunned, even the Prisms and Hammerheads if Pask has anything to say about it.

Space marines don't care because they pack meltas in their own rhinos, and all have krak grenades, but Eldar and Tau will have a much tougher time I think.

Space marines don't care because they pack meltas in their own rhinos, and all have krak grenades, but Eldar and Tau will have a much tougher time I think.

I disagree with you here. While Eldar will have a time because they rely on S6, they are also generally mobile enough to get those flank shots on the Chimeras, or at least the shots on the two ends of the wall. As for Tau, it all comes down to how many Broadsides and Piranhas they have taken.

As for marines, they need to move toward the wall in order to do anything to it with their meltas. By doing this, they play right into the IG player's hand, though perhaps they force it a bit early. Once those Rhinos and Troops get within range to hurt the wall, the wall is in range to come down right on their heads.

And even this position is impossible unless the SM player can whether a couple of turns of shooting from 3 Vendettas plus whatever heavy support the IG player has brought to the table.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

If that happens, lascannons in the vet squads won't turn the game around for him.