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Caffran9 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

If that happens, lascannons in the vet squads won't turn the game around for him.

That has been my experience, I can think of some situations where the lascannons would help, but most of the time they would get, at most, one or two shots a game. I could throw in a couple, I have put them in on my plasma squads and they do occasionally come in handy but not IMHO enough to justify thier points. I already have 10 lascannons in the list, two more is not going to shift the dymamic much.

OH, and trust me GBF, I know that not everyone is just going to ignore the Chimeras and I have taken steps to deal with that issue. I know that if I want to do well at Ard Boyz I will have to get past players of your calibre who will see the threat posed by the chims. Hope you dont mind if I keep those strategies under the vest for the moment

I can multi-charge their chimeras if they move up that close. All tanks are AV10 in close combat (except for LR and LRD of course).

G

whitedragon wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

Well that's just it. That's a wall of armor and dakka coming at you. For example, the IG player will have 3-5 more vehicles than a mechdar or mech tau player, and the IG vehicles have 3 guns per on average to the eldar and tau's 1-2 guns. Being AV12 in the front means that unless you go for flank shots, (which looks kinda tough based on a wall of chimeras) you'll be stunning/immobilizing chimera's at best, and they'll be doing the same back to you.

Now, coupled with the chimera vets packing meltas, and your eldar and tau packing, not meltas, means that your eldar and tau infantry have alot less ways to crack the armor, and their vehicles with the big guns will spend most of the game stunned, even the Prisms and Hammerheads if Pask has anything to say about it.

Space marines don't care because they pack meltas in their own rhinos, and all have krak grenades, but Eldar and Tau will have a much tougher time I think.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caffran9 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I understand how you play your list Big T. It is not a balanced list and I think you'll agree you can only play one style... Mech vets straight ahead. If I was playing against you I would ignore Pask and shoot everything at your chimeras. You have said if they don't make it past the middle of the table you lose.

G

If that happens, lascannons in the vet squads won't turn the game around for him.

Snatch the pebble from my hand.



G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I can multi-charge their chimeras if they move up that close. All tanks are AV10 in close combat (except for LR and LRD of course).

G

Come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly

I used an army with 4 broads, a HH, and 3 squads of deathrains and really messed up a mech vet list, by turn 2 his heavy ordanance was dead or disabled, he lost 2 vendettas and 4 chimeras were gone. After that, pulse rifle galor wasted his troops, and it was severly downhill from there. He was surprised to be outgunned by tau, especially with me only having one group of pathfinders, my suggestion to him was never underestimate twin linked railguns that can move...

My fly is really fly. I am a fly guy.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:My fly is really fly. I am a fly guy.

G

Yeah sorry bout that, please forgive the unintentional horrible pun. I should never try to be funny.

Multi Charge can be a problem, or it can be a benefit depending upon how you position yourself to respond to it. Im usually in a good position if I am close enough to be multi charged. What scares me is when I get multi charged in the backfield. Seer Council really bothers me, mostly because I have no way to practice against it.

C'mon Philly where are you Eldar players?

If you can take down 59 angry Marines after I pop all your chimeras you are the man. I've got a couple of brass knuckles up my sleeve too. Be the man.

I don't have much to contribute to this, except I love my mech vets and love playing them. They are even more entertaining when I tweak them for casual play, I usually have to tone it down a bit as my FLGS has very little competition. Its good that I can give myself some room for the odd small group of ogyrns or CC geared vets and still do really well.

Oh and one tid bit I did have was that vets come with krak, they don't have to buy them.

I'm also very scared of biker councils. I don't really see a solid answer to them in the list either. Maybe it is a case of just shooting them flat out until they're gone, as opposed to trying to find a unit/wargear/character that can trump them. At 2500pts the firepower mechvet lays down is pretty staggering.

I am going against 1500 points of Mech Vet tomorrow with SM bikers. 1 scout squad w/ nades and mines, a pretty diesel command squad and every other point on melta totin bikers. I think it should do OK-- worried about the skimmers tho

If I'm sending my firewarriors to do my anti-tank, I am doing something very very wrong.

Tau pack melta in the form of fusion blasters. Firewarriors can still do something if their transport is taken out before it reaches halfway across the board.

Caffran9 wrote:I'm also very scared of biker councils. I don't really see a solid answer to them in the list either. Maybe it is a case of just shooting them flat out until they're gone, as opposed to trying to find a unit/wargear/character that can trump them. At 2500pts the firepower mechvet lays down is pretty staggering.

That is our only real strategy for JetCouncil Eldar. Just hit them with enough fire power and hope they fail enough saves eventually. They are my worst nightmare for both Mech Vet and Sallies on Wheels. The only thing that keeps me from feeling they will take it all is the fact that they are very vulnerable to lash and demons. They are our hardest matchup of armies we are likley to see I think.

bigtmac68 wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:I'm also very scared of biker councils. I don't really see a solid answer to them in the list either. Maybe it is a case of just shooting them flat out until they're gone, as opposed to trying to find a unit/wargear/character that can trump them. At 2500pts the firepower mechvet lays down is pretty staggering.

That is our only real strategy for JetCouncil Eldar. Just hit them with enough fire power and hope they fail enough saves eventually. They are my worst nightmare for both Mech Vet and Sallies on Wheels. The only thing that keeps me from feeling they will take it all is the fact that they are very vulnerable to lash and demons. They are our hardest matchup of armies we are likley to see I think.

agreed. I really, really wish it was possible to incorporate a Libby with Nullzone into the Sallies on wheels (I know the captain is needed, which makes it impossible really, it is just frustrating lol), it would improve the matches against Jetcouncil and Daemons quite a bit for the list.

For IG at 2500pts maybe it is possible to find the points to upgrade the IQ to an IQ Lord and run a Hood on him. If you can thwart Fortune for a turn then it really exposes the unit to taking heavy losses. I'd figure that the IG player has probably 2 turns to try and stop fortune before there is too much damage done, so if he stops it once he can get into the meat of the unit much easier. Ideally the IG player goes first and tries to catch the council before it gets bolstered though. Honestly if Fortune isn't active on it, the unit is substantially less scary (IMO anyway lol).

Without a Fortune, the unit is basically as hard to kill as Space Marines in cover. Which are... not really that hard to kill. I think IG players would be insane if they didn't fit in an Inq Lord with hood, especially at 2500 points, if they had an inkling that they'd be up against the biker death councils.

On a different note, Jetseer councils get bogged down horribly by plague marines. They'll probably win the combat, but it takes about 6 assault phases to do it.

I agree they should take a hood. I would even venture an Inquisitor Lord would be worf it.

G

sourclams wrote:Without a Fortune, the unit is basically as hard to kill as Space Marines in cover. Which are... not really that hard to kill. I think IG players would be insane if they didn't fit in an Inq Lord with hood, especially at 2500 points, if they had an inkling that they'd be up against the biker death councils.

On a different note, Jetseer councils get bogged down horribly by plague marines. They'll probably win the combat, but it takes about 6 assault phases to do it.

Yes, PMs are great for tarpitting Jetcouncils.

So are you suggesting that IG should be running an IQ Lord even in lower points in a competitive environment? His point cost is quite high in comparison to his cheaper Elites slot brother, which makes him really hard to justify fitting into say a 1750pt list.

I honestly don't think you can afford not to if you know there's going to be a Jetseer player waiting for you on R3. Yes, he's very expensive in comparison to the Elite Inq, but if you're running him bare bones with Mystics it's only 83 points.

Might want to put him in a Chimera or Rhino too.

Or a gunship to extend the range of the mystics... Of course then it's easier to pick off with a rocket or lascannon round for instance.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Or a gunship to extend the range of the mystics... Of course then it's easier to pick off with a rocket or lascannon round for instance.

G

And don't forget you have to measure from the hull of the vehicle to the deep striking unit (its hull if a vehicle, base if infantry). You end up losing a few of those 4D6 inches.

Agreed. G

Necrons are actually a dicy confrontation for the Guard. Without Lash they can't get them into assault. With ld 10 and Gauss they tend to be able to rally if the PBS make em break, and their anti-tank at long range puts squadrons and chimeras on their tails.

Further, the Liths are essentially immune to guard fire, save for the Vendettas, and the particle whip is one of the most deadly anti-tank weapons in the game.

Then of course there is the C'tan, who you need to block off with vehicles, and who will be destroying one every 2 turns, and god help you if he gets to melee and pulls off a misdirect, he'll squat on your objective and the Guard simply can't shift him, unless you've got a lot of autocannons.

The Guard has all the elements necessary to pull apart the Necron brick, but it needs to have and use them all (autocannons for Big D, lascannons for liths, PBS for Necron shooters, pie plates for warrior units hiding behind Lith/emerging from reserve) and do so properly to win the game. It's not an easy match.

Demolishers do well against Lith's, as well as the rest of the necron army.

40kenthusiast wrote:Then of course there is the C'tan, who you need to block off with vehicles, and who will be destroying one every 2 turns, and god help you if he gets to melee and pulls off a misdirect, he'll squat on your objective and the Guard simply can't shift him, unless you've got a lot of autocannons.

Mech Vets typically pack a metric ton of meltaguns, so bringing down a C'tan really isn't that difficult. 30 BS4 meltaguns shots fired will do it on average. I can put that out in two turns of shooting with just my infantry, nevermind the 3 Vendettas.

Medusas also do a good job of crushing 'Liths and large Warrior bricks.

@sc, lw: Medusas, Demolishers, do a good job popping liths, but Liths/destroyers pop or stun them just as easily. More easily, in truth, as they lack the AV 14 all round that the Lith wall provides. Warrior bricks don't really come into it, they have to spend the game hiding from the PBS, in my experience.

@Danny: That's a really terrible idea. The Necron round after you drive all your chimeras up to the Star God and liths and do the first half of its wounds will be carnagetastic.

Er... S10 Ord and S10 Ap1 has quite good odds of smashing them. It's not a 1 shot 1 kill but IG armies tend to feature multiples if they take those selections.

S10 Ord: Roughly 50% chance of landing on the Lith due to its size with BS3 scatters, two dice pick the highest gives a 66% chance of penning, 1/3 chance on the table to destroy outright. Sure it'll take a battery of 3 Demo/Medusa cannons 2 turns to knock one out, but it'll happen.

Same with bunker buster Medusas. Less a chance to pen due to no reroll, but higher odds of destroying outright thanks to AP1.

Liths can still shrug them off more easily than other vehicles, but it's folly to ignore them completely.

I wasn't suggesting the liths ignore them, they can shoot back or have their destroyers do it.

Does the IG player even need to try and kill the Lith? It is very slow and while sure its big blast is scary, if you apply enough pressure to the troops the Necron player will probably need to teleport units through its portal instead of shooting it so he can get a second WBB roll for them. With such a strong ability to kill MEQ type troops, you can really bring heavy pressure there and phase out seems easier to attain than it would be for most other armies' shooting. Target priority is key again (which it always is, but especially for mechvet).

Again don't underestimate the power of mech dark eldar against mech IG. A competitive list can easily bring around 15 - 20 dark lances to the table on turn one in the 1500 point range. I think in ard boys you can get closer to 25 - 30. Even a WWP list could reign destruction against mech vets by having everything in assault range on the turn they comp in MOOTF be damned!