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I got a chance to play against mechanized IG today; I had asked a friend of mine to assemble a mechanized IG force so that I could play against it and see what I need to be looking for and strategizing for. We were doing an 'Ard Boyz practice round, and we used last years rules; we rolled and ended up with the third scenario from last year, which was as follows:

Dawn of war, capture and control + annihilation. Caveats: All HQs and troops may deploy instead of 1HQ + 2 troops. Dedicated transports do not count for killpoints.

We had the store owner set up terrain (which he flooded the table with it) and rolled off - the IG player won the roll and chose to go first. He had 15 chimeras, 2 collossus, rough riders, Sly marbo, some heavy weapon teams, and a few other things. 'Ard boy practice says to take 2.5 hours for the game, but I didn't start time until we had all our models out and until after he deployed actually. He took literally 45 minutes to deploy, and put vast amounts of stuff on the board. I chose to stay in reserve.

Two hours later, we were on the top of turn 3 (and I started the game in DoW reserves with nothing on the table)....despite me playing Orks, most of the time had been absorbed by my opponent moving and shooting at me. The game was going frustratingly; he had massive numbers of things on the table obstructing my ability to get through them and to his objective, combined with the fact that Orks are naturally weak at anti-tank. His chimeras didn't count for kill-points anyway, and when I killed the guys inside a few of them, I still didn't get a killpoint because you have to take out a force organization slot to get a killpoint. Between his 15 chimeras, 2 collosus, multiple heavy weapon teams, rough riders, sly marbo...he had a total of 11 killpoints.

After his turn 3 finished, I was up by one killpoint. I had killed sly marbo (1 killpoint) and he had killed nothing of mine. I had lost a bunch of vehicles that counted as dedicated transports (and therefore not KPs) in addition to having 3 squads of boyz only having 1-3 orks left; however none of them were completely wiped out to give up a killpoint.

As such, I won a minor victory. We both owned our respective objectives and I had +1 killpoint.
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Now, post game my opponent was talking about sportsmanship; if 'Ard Boyz has none, then he's planning on just dragging out turns as long as possible, which gives him a clear advantage. In an objective game, he has SO MANY troop choice components that he can get onto stuff with his chimeras and hold or contest, and in a killpoint mission, he can literally drag a 2.5 hour game out to only last 2 turns.

Against an assault army (like mine) where I'm going to take losses in turns 1-2 and make up for it in turn 3-4....I'd never get a chance to actually "engage" in the game. That's a serious handicap in something like 'Ard Boyz that is time-restricted. So what now? If there's no sportsmanship, it wouldn't matter anyway. What can someone say to that kind of tactic?

What do you do if you're in 'Ard Boyz....lets say that you went first...and 2.5 hours later your opponent ends the bottom of turn 2 and the game ends?

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A side note and question about chimeras: They say that in reality they are shooting from firing ports, but for simplicity sake, treat all firing ports as if they're firing from the turret. A chimera has what...6 firing ports? That means six guys can fire from the turret? I kept getting pelted by the multi-lasers, heavy bolters, then lasguns and other stuff....just insane amounts of fire. Do we treat the chimera as having 5 firing ports in the rotating turret that have a 360 degree firing arc and can see anywhere?

Dashofpepper wrote:What do you do if you're in 'Ard Boyz....lets say that you went first...and 2.5 hours later your opponent ends the bottom of turn 2 and the game ends?

Be a Dick, complain to the TO, get him DQ'd for wasting time.

A side note and question about chimeras: They say that in reality they are shooting from firing ports, but for simplicity sake, treat all firing ports as if they're firing from the turret. A chimera has what...6 firing ports? That means six guys can fire from the turret? I kept getting pelted by the multi-lasers, heavy bolters, then lasguns and other stuff....just insane amounts of fire. Do we treat the chimera as having 5 firing ports in the rotating turret that have a 360 degree firing arc and can see anywhere?

No, you get 5 Fire Points from the rear top Hatch.

He showed me in the IG codex; it said that you treat the fire points as coming from the turret. I don't have the quote on me offhand though.

Dashofpepper wrote:He showed me in the IG codex; it said that you treat the fire points as coming from the turret. I don't have the quote on me offhand though.

Christ all mighty, what magic codex does he have?

From my 5th Ed IG Codex:

Fire Points: 5 Models can fire from the Chimeras Top hatch. [...] We assume all shots to be taken from the hatch.

It also says that 5 models can shoot out.

Right, 5 models shoot out of it. Top hatch...360 degree stuff...that's a minor issue here. =p

Complaining to a TO here if this happens....how far is that going to get? If the other guy says, "I have a lot of models, it takes me a while to move them all...."

Dashofpepper wrote:
Complaining to a TO here if this happens....how far is that going to get? If the other guy says, "I have a lot of models, it takes me a while to move them all...."

If more than one person complains...good chance he'll be kicked.

Also, after someone complains about getting to turn 2 after 2.5 hours, chances are that judges will be standing over this guy like a hawk in order to make sure he doesnt delay.

Lastly, take comfort in the fact that he's not only wasting opponents time, he's wasting his own. You're not going to win anything in 'Ard Boyz unless you STOMP opponents. Not only is delaying a Douchey tactic...its a waste of a day of gaming.

Tell your friend to get with the program and play a game. Just because there isnt a sportsmanship score doesnt mean its a free ticket to being an a-hole.

My judo teacher tells a tale of one black belt whose proud boast after a day of competition was "nobody ever threw me on the floor". Judo teacher's response was "Well, did you throw anyone?"

"Er... no."

Playing for a draw every game is staggeringly pointless!

Dedicated transports are 1 KP each per 2009 'Ard Boyz rules.

'Ardboyz doesn't have a Sportsmanship score, it does have sportsmanship, which will be enforced by the TO, (if he cares, and has a pair of balls). If I walked over to someone deliberately and blatantly stalling, I'd award a victory to his opponent, and kick him from the tournament. There are things that aren't covered in the BRB, that doesn't mean they are legal. Deliberately stalling is one of those.

This caught my interest in your post: I still didn't get a killpoint because you have to take out a force organization slot to get a killpoint
Can you point me to where they clarify this? FAQ or something? I imagine that killing off a large IG platoon to be nearly impossible, with the ability to hide one small unit, and fight with the other dozen.

That was the rules for last year's Ard Boyz, which has been revised to the current KP chart:

KP per unit elimination
Troop: 1
Dedicated Transport: 1
Heavy/Elite/Fast: 2
HQ: 5

Yeah, it made the second mission last year ridiculous if you played guard. It's not easy to kill 55 guardsmen to get a single KP

I killed 3 chimeras and several units of guard that were inside them, as well as making two heavy weapon teams run off the board, and none of it counted for a killpoint.

My only killpoint came from killing Sly Marbo. He attempted to drop a demo charge on one of my troop choices, and it scattered off and hit himself (but he made his 3+ cover save) and I ended up giving him the business end of a couple of skorchas. That's where my 1 KP came from. =p

Another question too - Sly marbo enters play via...how? Ding, here he is? 1" away from an enemy unit, and that's his only rule? o.O

I also got hit by 2 fleet commanders who gave +2 to my reserve rolls, so that on turn 2, I needed 6+ for reserves, turn 3 I needed 5+....that would be incredibly effective in *any* game I think.

Dashofpepper wrote:I killed 3 chimeras and several units of guard that were inside them, as well as making two heavy weapon teams run off the board, and none of it counted for a killpoint.

3 Chimeras award you 3 KPs because Ded. Transports are 1 KP each.

@Dash

Actually the slowing down of the reserves could bite them on the keester when they run up against daemons. It allows daemon players to land on objectives late game and not get smashed flat.

Sly just needs to make his reserve roll and he can be placed anywhere. It's kinda nasty but kinda fun too!

@Sourclams

This year yes but they were using last years set-up. According to this year he would have gotten:

3 KP's for transports
2 KP's for heavy weapon teams
2 KP's for marbo
and however many single squads of guard he wiped out.

Back @Dash

Point that out to your friend dash that he would still have lost even dragging his feet. He also would have scored only a minor victory which all by itself almost puts you out of the running.

@ Hulksmash:

Those KPs are only for scenario two. In scenario one and three things are one kill point each, including dedicated transports.

Marbo is a ripoff of Rambo (and to a lesser extent all action movies from the 80s and 90s). As such he is just placed on the board and is assumed to have crawled out from under a random rock, out of any nearby river (covered in camouflaging mud), turns out he was the pilot of the vehicle you just destroyed (and hopped out of the wreckage), etc etc. Ironically he always seems to happen to pop out in whatever position would give him the best demo charge opportunity.

It's probably because his girlfriend/love-interest-for-the-battle is a Callidus assassin. And he's drinking buddies with every astropath in the segmentum.

As for the stalling issue... I've seen it in several wargames. And trust me... a properly designed Imperial Guard army is QUITE capable of taking 2.5 hours for 2 turns. Of course, it's obvious you're being a dick to design that way. But if you're designing your army to do it by the standards of "I took a reasonable amount of time to move/shoot/etc, I didnt deliberately take longer than necessary, and if it took a little long to figure out the number of shots/accurate movement/etc it's because that's how the game is played and I dont want to be acused of cheating my opponent"... well, what are you going to do? I've played games against Ork tides where they ate up 75% or more of the clock, perfectly legally, and not deliberately diddling around with their movement.

Tough cookies? My suggestion would be to talk to the judges before the game about the issue and see what they think. If possible, get something about "designing your army to take up lots of table time during the game is considered unsportsmanlike conduct" put into the tournament rules beforehand.

Will this help in "official" GW run events? I doubt it. GW didnt even bother to answer any of the immediately obvious questions about how the Valkyrie's flight stand/base works in the codex. And their FAQ policy seems to be "every 6 months we'll bother to answer some irrelevant questions... and anything important will be answered later, 2 months before the new codex for that army comes out".

Regardless, I hate it for you. I play Guard and am not a dick. But insofar as hard official answers... I think you're gak out of luck.

Couple of issues.

First, ask to see your opponent's codex if you question something. During the Ardboyz, you got to have the rules, plain and simple.

Second. I think you signed up at the Hobbit in Fayetteville. You will need to win big to go forward. Last year, there were several players who went 3-0, but didn't qualify. Massacres are what will win at that location. Slow playing will not cut it for either opponent.

Third. Folks can get disqualified at this location if there is 'suspect' activity going on. Things like slow play, not WYSIWGY, unreadable armylists or being able to look up a rule b/c one didn't bring the appropriate rulebook generally are not tolerated. The Ardboyz actually put out some specific rules which will be followed, especially with the lack of Sportsmanship and Army Comp. Folks are pretty friendly to play with there, but will call folks out on things.

@Orkestra

I was refering to if he'd played this year's KP mission since they were playing last years KP mission

As for the stalling guard player....He's just gonna waste a saturday

Hulk, you mentioned guard units representing a killpoint....

If one troop choice is split into 3 guard teams + 3 chimeras, there are only 4 killpoints there right?

I know that if I take snipers as a tau player, you have to kill all three sniper teams to get a killpoint.

That's actually not how KP's work. It's not based on FOC slots. It's based on units. A guard platoon w/a PCS, 3xSquads, 2xHWT's, and 4xChimera's is worth 10 KP's, not 1. In the instance of your snipers since they are deployed seperately as seperate units it is a KP each so 3 KP's for your 3 Teams. Now if you take a squadron of pirahna's for instance then you need to kill the whole squadron because they are one "unit". Same with leman russ squadrons. It comes down to units not spots on the force org.

At last years Ard Boyz they made an exception and allowed it to be FOC Slots for whiney guard players Which boosted from the worst KP army to the best KP army. They also allowed dedicated transports not to count. Don't expect it this year as the guard got their new dex.

If you combat squad a Tactical Squad it becomes two Killpoints.

A killpoint is per Unit,not per choice.

I think they were talking about 'Ard Boys own way of doing KP, not the Vanilla way.

The rules for this year's Ard Boyz specifically states that slow playing will not be tolerated. If your opponent is playing slow for whatever reason call over the TO and let them know.

G

Can someone point me to where in the 'Ard Boyz rules it talks about KPs? I pored over both the scenario sheets and the rules and didn't see anything; help would be greatly appreciated!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arg, nevermind - its the vanilla Annihilation rule! =p

I was just gonna say that to Gwar. This year's KP's follow the standard with the totals each is worth adjusted in the second scenario.

As with any timed event as soon as my my opponent started to stall I would call for a judge and if necessary ask the judge to watch the rest of the game to ensure timely play. Stallers get away with slow play because their opponents are unwilling to call a judge and highlight the problem.

Ya your opponents strategy is crap playing to stall will get you beat. Though if you play anyone else with certian lists don't assume they are doing it on purpose. ( They might still but give them the benefit of the doubt) I played a massed guard list once upon a time and It would take so long to move and shoot everything it literaly take 30 min to set up and 30+ just in my shooting phase and wasn't even my fault lol.

As I can tell you I now play Mech Guard... the nightmares still haunt m of placing all those models....