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 ductvader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.

To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?

Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.

Rupture Cannon? Stab in the dark...haha

Tentaclids are pretty much it unless you happen to be running Haywire HG...

Nobody is recommending either.

Yeah, Smash in CC is pretty much it. Though a Tyranofex with Adrenals, and Electrobugs can put a scare in any vehicle. (...mostly from CC )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.

Primary Detachment

Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.

10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants

Skyblight Formation

Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles

Subterranean Swarm

Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws

Very nice! Though it is terribly vulnrable to Synapse Hunting....avoid that, and I think you'll have fun
2000 points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?

I meant as far as points.
For Elite slots - Venomthropes or a single Zoey. Multiple in a brood isn't efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pinecone77 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.

To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?

Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.

Ah, gotcha. Well I guess "An answer" is better than "No answer" ....So that means Zoey is the Best?

Eldercaveman wrote:
So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.

Primary Detachment

Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.

10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants

Skyblight Formation

Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles

Subterranean Swarm

Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws

2000 points.

If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.

Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.

One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.

I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P

Addaran wrote:
Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.

One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.

I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P

But they reroll failed penetration rolls and hit with at least a 3+.

Addaran wrote:
Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.

One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.

I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P

3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing. Chance to pop a Land Raider.

I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Explode! 1+ HP Nothing 3 Zoeys 34% 30% 36% Dakkafex 39% 52% 09% CC Cfex 50% 43% 07% Flyrant 33% 40% 27% CCrant 44% 35% 20% Tfex 33% 40% 27% Exocrine 33% 40% 27% Mawloc 33% 40% 27% Trygon 44% 35% 20% T-Prime 44% 35% 20% Tervigon 33% 40% 27% Crone 33% 40% 27% Harpy 33% 40% 27%

Edited to correct bad math.

tag8833 wrote:

Addaran wrote:
Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.

One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.

I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P

3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing.

I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Explode! 1+ HP Nothing 3 Zoeys 34% 30% 36% Dakkafex 28% 99% 0% Flyrant 22% 78% 0% CCrant 30% 99% 0% Tfex 22% 78% 0% Exocrine 22% 78% 0% Mawloc 22% 78% 0% Trygon 30% 99% 0% T-Prime 30% 99% 0% Tervigon 22% 78% 0% Crone 22% 78% 0% Harpy 22% 78% 0%
Ugh! My percentages don't add up. Someone check my work.
Chance to take a hull point without exploding for an MC with 5-6 attacks = (4 (# smash attacks) * 2/3 (to hit if vehicle moved) * 1/6 (Glance not pen)) + (4 (# smash attacks) * 2/3 (to hit if vehicle moved) * 2/6 (pen not glance) * 4/6 (No explode result)) = 104% = Not possible. What did I do wrong?

You forgot the re-rolls. Also a percentage multiplied by 4 can give more than 100%

MC's get armourbane?

 Tyran wrote:
You forgot the re-rolls. Also a percentage multiplied by 4 can give more than 100%

Yes to the re-rolls.

Yes to multiplying something by 4 being more than 100%, but that doesn't mean more than 100% is possible. I think I can't really directly compute that middle number, and need to compute the chance of explodes, and the chance of doing nothing and subtract to get the correct chance of doing 1 or more hull points without exploding. I'm updating my table

bodazoka wrote:
MC's get armourbane?

No. When Smashing you can reroll pens.

 jy2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.

Primary Detachment

Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.

10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants

Skyblight Formation

Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles

Subterranean Swarm

Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws

2000 points.

If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.

It's one if them things where the club is meant to be a casually veterans club where everything gets a long and nobody brings cheese, but some of the lists coming out already are just stupid, because we have a few people who just believe what the internet says, so they are all writing me off for bringing Nids. So I want to give them A) a list that is completely left wing and B) still pretty nasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I might do is shave some points and swap the Prime for Deathleaper.

Eldercaveman wrote:

Spoiler:

 jy2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.

Primary Detachment

Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.

10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants

Skyblight Formation

Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles

Subterranean Swarm

Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws

2000 points.

If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.

It's one if them things where the club is meant to be a casually veterans club where everything gets a long and nobody brings cheese, but some of the lists coming out already are just stupid, because we have a few people who just believe what the internet says, so they are all writing me off for bringing Nids. So I want to give them A) a list that is completely left wing and B) still pretty nasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I might do is shave some points and swap the Prime for Deathleaper.

Keep the Prime. You are light on Synapse. You lose your flyrant or Trygon Prime and then you won't be able to control your army. You need a character you can hide in a large squad to provide backfield synapse.

Also, my last suggestion is that you should try to find the points to fit in a bastion and a venomthrope. Junk one of the formations if you have to. Without a proper "foundation" for your army, you can potentially get alpha-struck pretty hard by certain armies (here's looking at you, Tau, Eldar and DE).

tag8833 wrote:

Addaran wrote:
Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.

One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.

I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P

3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing. Chance to pop a Land Raider.

I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Explode! 1+ HP Nothing 3 Zoeys 34% 30% 36% Dakkafex 39% 52% 09% CC Cfex 50% 43% 07% Flyrant 33% 40% 27% CCrant 44% 35% 20% Tfex 33% 40% 27% Exocrine 33% 40% 27% Mawloc 33% 40% 27% Trygon 44% 35% 20% T-Prime 44% 35% 20% Tervigon 33% 40% 27% Crone 33% 40% 27% Harpy 33% 40% 27%

Edited to correct bad math.

Thanks. =D
I don't think the odds are that bad, specialy when you factor in the cost and distance. MCs win obviously if they get to CC, but it's been pretty rare for me. (Even saw a picket line of space marine blocking me from the tank )

... So kill the marines? They're the tastier target anyway, and if the combat lasts more than your turn you can't be shot at.

Win/win.

Just speed painted up in under 4 hours the new Mawloc, going to try and get a game in tomorrow with the tri crone/mawloc list.

I've got another one that is more 'balanced', which pulls a Lictor to provide backfield synaptic control with the Prime.

Flyrant w/2x Devourers, electroshock grubs, HC
Flyrant w/2x Devourers, electroshock grubs
Lictor
30x Termagant (outflankers)
Tervigon
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
Trygon Prime

So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?

Just begs to play Zone Mortalis missions.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?

Sounds like slow fragile units with low damage output being shown up by Tyrannofexes.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?

Like you're wasting your Elite choices. Be it Venomthropes for cover saves, Zoeys for further Synapse coverage and psychic shenanigans, Lictors for Mawloc lock ons or Hive Guard for firepower there are always better choices than Pyrovores.

Disclaimer: If you can, never pick Lictors within your normal force org chart. Seriously, Assassin Brood those babies. Yeah, it's steep but you get maximum lictors and a HQ outside of normal force Org. Deathleaper is also oddly useful against a lot of things too but not useful enough to eat a slot over a Hive Tyrant.

rigeld2 wrote:
... So kill the marines? They're the tastier target anyway, and if the combat lasts more than your turn you can't be shot at.

Win/win.

That's what i did in the shooting phase, then i was sitting duck and died by terminator charge. Would have prefered to move further away and if i killed the tank, next i could have taken a shot at his Warlord. Much tastier. =P

Mostly, i was just pointing out how easy it is to deny the charge to an enemy.

Yeah, don't shoot to kill them, punch them :-)

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, don't shoot to kill them, punch them :-)

Yeah....Trygon Prime with Miasma Canon might have been overkill in the shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, don't shoot to kill them, punch them :-)

Pretty much how Tyranids have always been - we don't deal with vehicles at range unless it's to give them glancing Hull Point hell within our 18 inch murderfield. If it's anything bigger than AV12 the best approach is generally to go in and punch it simply because our S9/S10 firepower has too much against it (Zoeys have to jump through too many hoops for Warp Lance and T-fex rupture cannons are costly still and only BS 3).

Ok, back from diverting myself.

Back to the 1800 point tournament. Formations were told no, but in return the TOs did state Tyranids could ally with themselves (huzzah!). This is mainly after I pointed out where every other army could ally with something Tyranids got formations - so they evened that up for the sake of fairness (because to be fair I'm expecting to see Taudar, Deldar and anything Inquisition cropping up with 3 HQs).

So the 1800 point list is now as follows...

*****

Main Force Org

Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

15 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Warriors - 2 Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler

Crone
Crone

Carnifex - 2 x Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Devourers

Allies

Flyrant - Scytals, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Shreddershard Grubs
Zoanthrope
10 Termagants

*****

Ideas here. Advance with wall of firepower carnifexes and Flyrants, scooting the gaunts up to objectives as I go. Use the melee Flyrant aggressively as an assassin along with the crones, bullying small squads with Vector Strikes or straight up assassinations on characters. The idea is the big monsters are aggressive, the gaunts are to be ignored.

So the 1800 point list is now as follows...

*****

Main Force Org

Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

15 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Warriors - 2 Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler

Crone
Crone

Carnifex - 2 x Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Devourers

Allies

Flyrant - Scytals, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Shreddershard Grubs
Zoanthrope
10 Termagants

[edit] Whoops, electrogrubs are cheaper than I remember. As I was.

However, if you're using zoey for tank killing, 2 individuals is a low chance of killing high armor with deny the witch. Might think about grouping them.

If you're going for synapse and you're allying yourself, go for broke and get a Prime with Miasma Cannon instead of those two or you might think about a Malanthrope if you have cash money.


I'm gonna hit on three fronts here as well.

-I still personally love and always play heavy Biovore. They're just very solid against pretty much anything on the board, even MEQ's start seeing wounds after multiple barrages.. I just have a unit of warriors with a strangler babysit them and snipe with a strangler. Added with that, I run the cross tactic of Deathleaper and/or Broodlords tanking hostile leadership and seeing failed pinning tests due to barrage, and then a wholesale slaughter by charging into combat. I like the tactic. I'm still hammering out the details on my army list though. Couple crones, a flyrant, and I like the Prime with Miasma Cannon and "Look out sir" shenanigans in a group of 'Fexes stomping up the board.

-What on Earth is the point of the Exocrine vs the T-fex? It's stat line is practically the same. Are we talking "We (GW) need money so we'll remake an old unit with new rules and sell it for 80(cue evil laugh)"? It's in the same slot on the FOC, and serves an identical purpose. Or am I missing something?

-Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Tervigon/Tfex kit. It is an amazing looking kit. However, is it just me or does it just NOT look like EITHER of those things? Like the birthing pod was a last minute addition? And the weapons he holds just don't exude an aura of Assault 20, or a 48" Str 10 monstrosity? With that in mind, I'm doing conversions for the Tervigon from the fantasy Giant Spider bodies. So I got that covered. As for the T-fex I would just magnetize and use the Exocrine kit if I could get away with it in tournaments, but I may just have to figure something out, any suggestions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and as a note. In 5th, I loved zoeys. Now, not so much. Deny the witch and no pods is rough. I'm finding myself using other elites more often, and Impaler Cannons ignoring cover is much more relevant than you'd think.

captnobvious wrote:
-What on Earth is the point of the Exocrine vs the T-fex? It's stat line is practically the same. Are we talking "We (GW) need money so we'll remake an old unit with new rules and sell it for 80(cue evil laugh)"? It's in the same slot on the FOC, and serves an identical purpose. Or am I missing something?

You are, they fill very different roles. One is a super-durable MC that uses templates to clear out light infantry, the other is less durable and uses plasma to take out heavy infantry and MCs.

I understand the point of the variance in weapon, yes. However couldn't they have just made the Exocrine's gun a piece of wargear for the T-fex and achieved the same effect?

Take your pick:
- They didn't want a weapon that powerful on a 2+ save MC after seeing what Riptides could do
- The model cast was already done before any thought went into the rules
- New kits sell
- Cruddace

Just out of curiosity, how many people are actually paying with the skyblight swarm? I mean, actually using it? It's pretty good, but it seems to be referred to in the theoretical more than in the practical. I have used it once with proxies, just to test it out, but haven't since.

I'll run it tomorrow @1500 points and come back with a play by play. In my solo test games it's pretty overwhelming.

Any game where you can spam 9-12 scoring units will give you a pretty strong edge. That's tyranids secret strength, even without formations, is massed scoring units.

Going to a 1650 event end of next month and currently getting my Nids ready for it.
This is the list I currently plan to take:

HQ
Flyrant, Dual Devs
Flyrant, Dual Devs

Troops:
30 Termies
Tervigon

Elite:
2 Zoanthrope
2 Zoanthrope

Fast:
Hive Crone

Heavy:
Tyranofex, Adrenal, Acid Spray
Tyranofex, Adrenal, Acid Spray
Mawloc

I'm finding the fex's are pretty awesome as a distraction charging into the enemy lines.
The Mawloc makes the enemy rethink deployment - If they don't then the Loc obviously can be deadly.
I use the Flyrants more as support units taking out units on the flanks, never putting them in immediate danger and using them to contest late game.

I'm finding Nids work quite nicely in smaller point games.
It's when I try to create a list on the 1750+ side that I tend to struggle filling out the points creating a list I feel is competitive. This is without the Skyblight formation though as a lot of tournaments still aren't allowing formations in my local area.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Going to a 1650 event end of next month and currently getting my Nids ready for it.
This is the list I currently plan to take:

HQ
Flyrant, Dual Devs
Flyrant, Dual Devs

Troops:
30 Termies
Tervigon

Elite:
2 Zoanthrope
2 Zoanthrope

Fast:
Hive Crone

Heavy:
Tyranofex, Adrenal, Acid Spray
Tyranofex, Adrenal, Acid Spray
Mawloc

I'm finding the fex's are pretty awesome as a distraction charging into the enemy lines.
The Mawloc makes the enemy rethink deployment - If they don't then the Loc obviously can be deadly.
I use the Flyrants more as support units taking out units on the flanks, never putting them in immediate danger and using them to contest late game.

I'm finding Nids work quite nicely in smaller point games.
It's when I try to create a list on the 1750+ side that I tend to struggle filling out the points creating a list I feel is competitive. This is without the Skyblight formation though as a lot of tournaments still aren't allowing formations in my local area.

Is that Birmingham Expo by any chance?