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Are we as a community going to be honest on painting and modelling or are we going to just pat each other on the back?

I'm not trolling on this so please tell me what is expected.

I do understand we are supposed to be nice and I'm doing my best to change my harsh words. The problem I have is that people are putting badly painted mini's on here and other as saying thing like "awesome". I do not understand this. I think we should push each other to do better so that a good quality table top model is on the board. I'd like to see people be honest and not just pat people on the back for trying.

This is my main point. I go to the Gallery and look at models. I see work that is listed as Paint 3 and then see the same thing in the Painted section getting this remark, "awesome". How is this possible?

Well do remember, people just put 1-2 words on commenting on some ones painted model just for the post count, i am guilty tho of doing this a few times but only when its appropriate (e.g. of some blogs which are just jaw dropping). I would like for the majority being constructive but, i don't think thats ever going to happen. Why not pat them on the back? yes, it may suck but at least they are giving it a go, i mean ive seen armies which is just been undercoated.

Overall, i think we do need to be more constructive about X's painting but not be harsh about it, so the confidence is still intact for them to go "Ok, my last painting was thick and lazy so I'm going to work on my brush control." etc etc

lso favor the "if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all" so most of my comments are of the "Kudos! Awesome job, but I think the red is a little too dark, is it your camera, or do you think maybe another highlight would be a benefit?"

The fact that I suck at painting makes just about any paint job I do see on here seem way better, so I tend to be an effusive praiser when I'm on the army blogs and such. And it's not a post-count thing. I couldn't give a damn what my count is, unless I'm close to a big milestone number like 1k or 5k or something.

I voted for honesty... actually everything looks awesome to me so it comes out as nice anyway.

I prefer honesty, but no need to go straight to the jugular with the feedback and use a rather nasty tone.

Interesting stats on poll so far methinks.....

Hmm, it might be the whole "How can you do that so badly?" question, when looking at your own work, that precludes any nastiness.

We are judged by our peers in the painting category, however I find most people tend to "Butter up" nastiness with positive comments.

Judge not, lest ye be judged" lol

Just look at the fluffy clouds, and the smiles on little Babies faces.......

I believe in being honest and constructive.

The worst thing I'll say about a paintjob is most likely "ok paintjob". I might think "It looks like it is painted with a Qtip" but I wont say it.

I'll then suggest constructive suggestions based on the apparent skill level of the poster.
Like "Try washing that area with Devlan Mud", "Use a fine tip black pen for black lining" or "try using coloured crayons for edge-lining".

*What Steelmage said...100% agree.

Depends on whose work you are commenting. If it's obviously a young player or newbie then their work isn't going to be great, they need experiance and practice. There is no point in being overly critical because they won't have the skill to apply all suggestions. Compared to an expert painter, there will be countless problems if you were to list every defect seperately, this is why they need encouragement and general guidance to hone their skills, the rest comes in time. You pitch advice at an appropriate level, and you don't want to needlessly scare them off and discourage them from the hobby by slagging off the only couple of models they have done.

A more experianced painter who paints things to a higher standard can expect more critical appraisal. The model may have a few tiny suggestions to improve it, some would say it's being 'picky' but the expert needs/wants that. There's a safety zone there, because you know from their current skills that they are invested in the hobby and are not going to be easily deterred, they probably won't be mortally wounded by people not liking just one piece of their work. Furthermore, they probably have a skill level to follow complex suggestions, you can give specific advice and criticism knowing it's within their abilities to apply them.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Are we as a community going to be honest on painting and modelling or are we going to just pat each other on the back? being nice or being honest....

Why are the two mutually exclusive? You can be honest about a bad paint job and be nice about it at the same time.....

Steelmage99 wrote:I believe in being honest and constructive.

Steelmage has the 100% correct idea here.

You can point out issues or improvements you think can or should be made (and often that's what the painters are looking for). It's always nice to give folks a pat on the back as well. Not everyone is a great painter. Personally, I know I've gotten much, much better over the past couple of years. At the end of the day though, these projects are things the poster has put a descent amount of work into. It's nice to recognize that.

One of things I really like about Dakka Dakka is the positivity of its members on the painting threads. I find Warseer tends to be a little more exacting, but some of the folks there can be pretty blunt. Definitely a softer approach here, but one that I find much more welcoming and contstructive.

Honest all the way. If people are looking for comments I'm not going to sugar coat them. I've told people that they are better off stripping the models and starting over. On the net I usually don't post at all on people's paint jobs unless they are trying to figure out how to do something. I mean the owner knows if it's good or bad already.

As far as my own paint jobs go, I don't care what anyone thinks as I painted them for myself and don't need comments.

I always offer constructive criticism. I'm not going to pat you on the back and tell you "good job" unles they really are very good minis. Obviously, how you comment is subjective: a person of lower skill level is going to comment positive, while someone of a higher skill level will either refrain from commenting or offer suggestions. Regardless, it's always important to be respectful and polite.. After all, maybe the painter is only 8 years old, and the OP is a proud father who wanted to show off his kid's work. Wouldn't you feel like a total d-bag if you were the one to make disparaging comments?

It's important to remember that when someone says "that's awesome", it might not be because they trying to be nice regardless of quality. It might be because that's what they think.

Constructive criticism is of course vital for improving one's work. But you have to remember that not everyone spent four years at art school. Not everyone wants to paint at that level; they just want to paint at a level that works for them.

So while the nuances of colour selection or technique may be the kind of responses an advanced painter would be looking for, you've got to tailor your advice to the level of the painter.

Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. However, that, as has been stated previously, does not mean nasty, hateful, etc. Constructive criticism is one of the greatest tools ever invented when given with honest, thoughtful intentions. The quality of anything artistic is also relevant to whomever is viewing it.

You can be honest without being an donkey-cave about it. The problem is some people apparently think their words carry more weight if they're a jerk so they never try, they literally just tell people "That looks like garbage" and expect to be praised for their brutal honesty. I know one thing, if you called me lazy because my base rims were black, I wouldn't listen to a single word of your "advice" even if you did happen to be a Golden Demon painter. Just because the bases happen to be cast in black plastic doesn't mean they can never, ever be painted (or simply left) black. It's like saying you could never paint a mini grey because the plastic is grey and it would look "lazy". Now if you wanted to make a point about badly done bases ruining the look of the model you'd be on to something, but I'd try to avoid insulting people while I was at it and just offer up a suggestion. "I think if you painted the base rims and the sand it would improve the overall look of the model by tying it into its base." If they don't feel like taking your advice then that's their choice. You also have to take into consideration that not everyone thinks the same way you do, some people apparently don't do bases at all because the idea seems ludicrous to them, painting something like a snow base and making your army look out of place on everything but a snow board. I don't necessarily agree with that, but still.

Also going back to that thread, when "grading" someone's paintjob, you simply said "Drybrushing - N/A". I've never met anyone who wasn't an egotistical prick that used a fething points system and gave people A's or B's like a high school teacher. The whole format you've chosen for judging other people's work has an air of douchebaggery around it in my opinion, and if you want people to take you seriously I'd suggest changing that. It's usually better practice to start off saying what you like about the model, and then offer up suggestions on how to improve, instead of making a list and saying "You lost points for drybrushing and improper basing, change that and I might give you an A." Like people actually give a gak if Random Internet Personality feels like they're worthy of an A or not.

That, and like I said before I'm not even sure I understand why you hate drybrushing so much. There's nothing at all wrong with using drybrushing. Yeah sure, you'd never win a Golden Demon with your minis that were painted with nothing but drybrushing, but when painting an entire army it's highly impractical, and just outright impossible, to do an entire army in the style of a Golden Demon painter. Your army would end up getting a new codex and be made obsolete by the time you were done painting it. In my opinion this is the kind of thing you need to keep in mind when judging someone else's work, why are they painting these models? Is it for the sole purpose of getting them painted and fieldable or are they trying to win contests? Sure, if someone goes the extra mile and tries blending, layering, or move advanced techniques like NMM then cool, but it's a little unrealistic to expect EVERYONE to do that and hold everyone to the same high standards.

There's nothing wrong with being honest, the problem arises when people forget to be respectful. You can tell someone you don't like their models and make suggestions without being too harsh about it. You don't have to lie and tell people their models are awesome when they look like a sloppy mess, just come out and say the models look a tad sloppy in your opinion and that taking an extra hour or two per model would make them look much cleaner and presentable.

I fear the DeviantArt complex. You can never say a bad word on that website without being punished or banned. Everyone has to turn into an arse-kisser while people who post pictures are destined to wander around in a deluded state thinking their crap smells like roses.

When I give feedback I tend to be honest but also nice. I pick out bits I like and compliment them on it and then I also offer suggestions on where to improve. And I expect the same in kind. How can one improve if they are told their sack of vomit is worthy of being placed into a museum?

There is an old saying that I try to live by when recieving feedback; "Only the weak suffer no criticism."

The trick is to be honest yet kind. Offer encouraging feedback and tips and try not to be patrinising or spiteful. It's a community which is here for the benefit of all and you will ultimately get out of it what you put in.

It's all about the constructive criticism.

Don't just tell people that it's rubbish. Instead tell them what you like about, what you think lets it down, and perhaps offer some advice on where and how to improve.

So honesty, but done pleasently.

The poll here is "Be Nice?" or "Be Honest?"

I say why choose? You can be nice -and- honest, but really I think critique should only be applied when someone is trying a new style or is a beginner. When a poster of lesser ability critiques someone that's putting out amazing pieces of work, saying things along the lines of "It's good but it needs..." "What you should have done..." or better yet "What I would do...", that poster just tends to come off as a troll or a general naysayer. It's also good to consider the painter's area. Are they a Tabletop or Display painter? I consider myself a tabletop painter of midrange ability. As a poster, I thus do not critique the works of display painters, as they're often extremely impressive and make my minis look like assembly line jobs.

When I do play the critic, I take some time to review a member's gallery before speaking up (If they lack a Gallery, I simply search the name in the P&M Sections) - A look at their complete works will tell you if they're new to painting or just new to that faction's minis, which can be a huge influence on the outcome of the work for some painters.

As well, I like to take into consideration how long the person has been painting.

Lastly, I look at my own pictures. I see where I need to improve for myself. Only then do I add my constructive criticism concerning painting quality.

Paint schemes are free of consideration - a bad paint scheme for an army should be pointed out (Kindly) so that the painter can come up with something in better taste. Painting your IG with gold fatigues and boltgun metal flak armour for example, would need to be critiqued for the good of humanity

I also try to make sure I never criticize anything without being both constructive and supportive. Being honest and telling a painter that they need improvement if their models are coming out blotchy and featureless is necessary, but doing so kindly is something anyone taking on the role of a critic must bear in mind.

"While you're clearly trying hard with your painting, I can still see that you need improvement. I'm happy to help you though, and if you want any tips or pointers that might help you along the way, send me a PM! The Dakka P&M Section of the Forums is a great place to look also, and has some really good tutorials and ideas. Good luck and welcome to the hobby!"

The above sounds a lot better than:

"Some big problems here. One is that your paint is too thick. This is a common problem with most new painters, and watering down the paints a little more can help. Two is that your mold lines are still visible. Before priming your model, be sure to shave or sand off all the mold lines. Just try not to damage the details. Also..."

This example is bad criticism of a beginners work. Even though it tries to be constructive, it can have a damaging effect on the painter's morale. The problem here is that the poster would only be focusing on the painter's mistakes, all of which are common ones to people new to the hobby. While helping them to spot the things they missed is essential, it should be done in a way that doesn't make them feel like they've been piled with an endless stack of faults on their first minis, which may turn them away from the hobby entirely.

When commenting on a picture uploaded by someone, the poster commenting on it should try to be as positive as possible, and encourage the user to try new techniques and tactics when painting that may improve and/or speed up the process for them. It's all about underlying messages and attitudes when posting. Misconceptions aren't hard to formulate when you're left to judge a person's tone, so keeping it positive is a big part of proper constructive criticism.

Be nice, but also give helpful tips.
It can break a little kids heart if you tell him that his painting is worth feth all. At least congratulate the effort.

The way i see it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
For some that are OMG SO COOL!@ , it might be "......."
to others. So when its "......." i keep it as .... as in i just dont respond to it . I'll keep from commenting on it unless its something technical that can be fixed and not preference related.

What are you trying to say lunahound? Are you for honesty or niceness?

Emperors Faithful wrote:What are you trying to say lunahound? Are you for honesty or niceness?

If a color scheme is generic ( like ultramarine , or something that has been done to death ) , i'll be more specific when commenting on the paint job technicalities .

If its an unique chapter that the painter came up with , with unique colors . I'll be looking more towards the creativity of it , and less caring about the paint job.

For me, it all depends on the situation :x ( for example i might try to say bunch of praises *none painting related* first before i get on commenting on the paintings )

I voted for honesty, if and when I put some of my minis up here to be C&C'ed. It would be of far greater benefit for my skill to be told what I've done wrong or what could be done better.

In saying that there's no need to tear someone apart just because they aren't the best painter around, the honesty needs to be tempered with a little bit of niceness. I think people would react to that better than just being abused for a lack of skill.

I won't lie to them. But I'm not going to say that whatever effort they put in was feth all.

And I would ONLY speak, if they offered it up and asked my opinion. No way would I hunt out crapply painted models and pay out the owners.

Empierors Faithful: And I would ONLY speak, if they offered it up and asked my opinion. No way would I hunt out crapply painted models and pay out the owners.

Well said. I Hate TFG's.

Hi.
I belive you can be honest yet constructive.
Always find something positve to say first, and last. And then sandwich some technical advise/altenatves in the middle.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Good advixe Lanrak. Same here, however I'm no expert so I can't really give many tips. I kinda suck myself (hence my support for "Be nice")

With any paint job, there is advice that can be given and just about any paint job is good in that it has been painted at all. So every paint job both is awesome and needs work.

Just about everyone would like both of these points acknowledged. Unless you feel as though the paint job is beyond your own knowledge(not skill) you should offer some constructive criticism as well as noting the things that were done well. Unless you know the person, only offering criticism can be disheartening and only offering praise is just not very helpful.

Moral of the story: Give both praise and constructive criticism.

A lot of training suggests the "sandwich" approach.

Praise
Suggesting
Praise