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Who is the best CSM Characters and why????

Any character that can take out 2 full Plauge Marine squads, 2 Nurgle DPs and a Summoned greater Daemon in one game by himself makes him the best CSM Character and a Game Wide Beat Stick.

Pipboy101:

Quite a few of those characters can do that, but I'm going to guess you're talking about Abaddon?

They're all pretty vicious. I've seen Ahriman demolish Tyranids and Orks with Gift of Chaos, burninate Plague Marines with Warptimed Winds of Chaos and Bolts of Change, and generally make the player on the receiving end suck their teeth.

Lucius is pretty under-rated, and isn't that great, but throwing him into a mob of Orks to detonate under a dogpile of Orks is hilarious. Heck, he's a nice duelist thanks to his Armour of Shrieking Souls ("Hey, I know, I'll take out the guy whose armour is covered in the shrieking entombed souls of all those who either defeated him, or were defeated by him. Good plan!").

Actually, the more I think about it, the theme really seems to be mass destruction when it comes to Chaos Lords.

Pipboy101 wrote:Any character that can take out 2 full Plauge Marine squads, 2 Nurgle DPs and a Summoned greater Daemon in one game by himself makes him the best CSM Character and a Game Wide Beat Stick.

I cant say I agree,for example,Kharn,165pts,7 attacks on the charge,always hits on a 2+,furious Charge,
immune to pshychic powers,Gorechild(pwr weapon), all for 110pts less than abbadon.

I appreciate ur opinion.

in the name of Po from Kung fu panda: Scadouche

Pipboy101 wrote:Any character that can take out 2 full Plauge Marine squads, 2 Nurgle DPs and a Summoned greater Daemon in one game by himself makes him the best CSM Character and a Game Wide Beat Stick.

I think Pipboy101 is making a cute reference to the player, not a special character. None of the Special Characteres allow you to take 2 DP's and a Greater Daemon.

As for the best, Abbadon is pretty beefy, Eternal, and doesn't swing at his own troops if he rolls a 1. Kharn unfortunately can be ended by a powerfist, and can turn a combat south pretty quickly if you roll bad and he starts hacking up his own unit. Kharn isn't a bad choice, but hardly the best.

whitedragon:

Pipboy101 is saying that there is a character that can "take out" two Daemon Princes and a Greater Daemon, as in "engage and destroy".

Kharn is pretty good for his points, and if you stick him with the right crowd (like Possessed...) then his habit of occasionally murdering (or attempting to murder) his own unit isn't so bad. Besides, he can chop up tanks, and like Lucius he's a bang-for-the-buck character rather than absolutely hardcore.

Abaddon's Eternal Warrior, for example, won't prevent him from becoming a Squig, or Spawn, or repentant. It does help prevent the odd Power Fist from squishing him, but that really shouldn't be a problem if you've combined a character with the right unit.

Ahriman, for example, slots very nicely with a unit of Thousand Suns. They catch bullets nicely, while the Aspiring Sorcerer (Warptime) add 3/4 more Force Weapon attacks. Against a unit of Orks, for example, they can rapid fire their bolters, assault, lay down some hurt, ad Force Weapon the Nob before it can swing.

Nurglitch wrote:whitedragon:

Pipboy101 is saying that there is a character that can "take out" two Daemon Princes and a Greater Daemon, as in "engage and destroy".

Wow, my reading comp is Fail today.

EDIT:

Nurglitch, Kharn is a good choice and at least he does have an Invul save, but against anything that doesn't immediately die from his attacks, he will be killed pretty easily. And nobody is safe from getting squigged or spawned, but Abby will stick around alot longer than Kharn, Typhus, Lucius or Ahriman, and wreck havoc with his gnarly demon weapon all the while. It shoots pretty gnarly too. He is a supreme beatstick that makes the enemy quake in fear. All the other characters may as well be upgrade characters for how they stack up to Abby.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ol' Blackheart. His warptime heavy flamer and power weapon is pretty awesome.

whitedragon wrote:

Pipboy101 wrote:Any character that can take out 2 full Plauge Marine squads, 2 Nurgle DPs and a Summoned greater Daemon in one game by himself makes him the best CSM Character and a Game Wide Beat Stick.

I think Pipboy101 is making a cute reference to the player, not a special character. None of the Special Characteres allow you to take 2 DP's and a Greater Daemon.

As for the best, Abbadon is pretty beefy, Eternal, and doesn't swing at his own troops if he rolls a 1. Kharn unfortunately can be ended by a powerfist, and can turn a combat south pretty quickly if you roll bad and he starts hacking up his own unit. Kharn isn't a bad choice, but hardly the best.

thats wh you seperate Kharn from his unit before they assault,the rules say on the roll of a 1 in cc,he strikes the unit he is with,
so if hes not in the unit he can assault,and the berzerkers assault the same unit just declare the, as seperate units assaulting.

thx 4 ur opinion

Yep I am writting about old Abbadon (Abby). I am not kidding, in two tournies I have seen him walk through my CSM Army and five other armies and only died once. He did take out 2 Plauge Marine squads, 2 DPs and a SGD in one game. Forced so many fearless saves that any player will start to lose models and wounds.

Plus with his damn 2+ save, great Inv save and not being instant killed goes along way ontop of a DW that is a PF that goes off on I. So when going against most armies he will just walk through them. Calgar can give him a run for his money but it will come down to trading punches but Abby should still be about to come out ahead.

whitedragon:

The only problem I see with Abaddon is that he is such a big chunk of points and is only really effective in close combat, where his Daemon Weapon will occasionally bite him in the ass. Typhus, by comparison, at least has a free swing with either Winds of Chaos or Nurgle's Rot, for stuff that's out of reach. Likewise Ahriman can murder stuff at range and up close, allowing him to be effective in both the Shooting phase and the Assault phase.

Kharn's ability to hit on 2+ with (typically) seven attacks at I6 wounding on a 2+ really makes him a reliable murder-machine against all kinds of infantry, and surprisingly against walkers. What Kharn lacks is Abaddon's sheer volume of potential Instant Death, but then that's well over 100pts of other stuff your army can have. Abaddon is certainly more survivable than the other characters, and grotesquely harder hitting, but he doesn't have the reach and he comes at a premium.

There's a similar relationship Huron Blackheart and Ahriman that exists between Kharn and Abaddon. The former of each pair is the discount version (kind of) and the latter is the premium. A Warptimed Heavy Flamethrower, for example, rocks pretty hard, but doesn't really compare to a Warptimed Winds of Chaos. Ahriman's Force Weapon combines the best aspects of Huron's Power Weapon/Power Fist combination (I5, A4, Instant Death), while he has a better saving throw, and the ability to cast three Gifts of Chaos in a turn, and throw Bolts of Change around, and so on.

To put them in Tiers, I'd rank them

1st Tier
Abaddon
Ahriman
Typhus

2nd Tier
Fabius Bile

3rd Tier
Kharn
Huron
Lucius

Fabius Bile is a special case because he can enhance your army, should your army consist of Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Space Marines, Chosen, Bikers, and Havocs), but he's as relatively squishy as the 3rd Tier.

Yeah, rolling 1s can happen to anyone.

Abby is the baddest character in all of 40k. Badder even than Ghazghkull. Sticking Abby with a squad of possessed marines, who get a free power that is going to be horrific to the enemy half the time, putting them all in a land raider, and delivering them into the midst of an enemy army is a surefire way to create destruction.

I have seen him Abby with 7 Khorne Marines and an Champ in a LR. The Champ exploded and out came a SGD, so seeing Abby a SGD and 7 Khornites charging anything will fall apart.

In terms of pure point effectiveness, Kharn can't be beat.

Abaddon costs like a C'tan, but is still only T5 and doesn't ignore invulnerable saves. He's certainly the single most powerful non-monstrous creature in the game in terms of pure close combat prowess, but is so expensive that he needs the rest of the army to be built specifically to support him. He also has terrible shooting ability, and the lack of frag grenades is a problem.

Fabius Bile doesn't have a power weapon, and his pistol can only pierce ork armor. He is the worst of the bunch in terms of killyness, and his support ability is just stupid because of how much it actually costs to bring him along and upgrade three or four squads. CSM hardly need S5 or 6 anyway (remember, they seldom have PWs), and you should really be running beserkers instead of upgraded CSM if you want assault troops. Statistically, Bile isn't even the most survivable of the bunch, since his FnP essentially increases his save to 2+ (1/3 * 1/2 = 1/6 wounds going through) against attacks that don't pierce his armor and aren't S8 or better. He isn't an EW either...

Huron is quite a good choice, since he can adapt to the situation with his PF/PW dual weaponry and rerolls to hit and wound. His HF also makes short work of lightly armored targets. However, you should remember that you can get a nurgle daemon prince with warptime and wings for Huron's points (well, 5 points short...), and the prince is much better than Huron against nearly everything but T7+ creatures, and even then the prince strikes first while Huron has to rely on his inv save not to be instantly killed. Huron is good, but not an effective choice. His low amount of attacks is also a bit of a problem.

Typhus is the most survivable of all the HQ choices, or would be if he was an EW. He is effective in assaults against infantry and MCs alike, but has trouble against vehicles. In my opinion, he costs way too much to warrant his abilities because he can't reliably deal with vehicles.

Ahriman costs like a land raider, and is relatively squishy since he isn't an EW either. Ahriman has a weapon against any type of target and can sort of deal with anything, but none of his abilities are very impressive. If he could go around throwing three bolts of change or three flamer templates per turn, he'd be a beast, but for now he remains an inefficient choice mostly thanks to the fact that Chaos has horrible psychic powers in general when compared to everyone else.

Lucius is an IC designed purely to fight marines. He has an Ap3 flamer, is faster than most SM HQ choices, gets more attacks for every save he makes, and reduces the number of deadly PW/PF attacks he receives by 1. Against vehicles and MCs, he has lots of trouble. Lucius isn't bad because of his stats or his gear, but because he can't deal with vehicles and MCs. Sure, he has krak grenades, but every CSM has krak grenades.

Kharn is good because he has lots of attacks, I6, S6 and hits with 2+. He is the only model in the entire game who hits on 2+, which is pretty huge. S6 means he wounds most troops in the game on 2+ (with an expected value of 5 power weapon wounds per turn), and instakills T3 ICs. Not only that, he rolls 2d6 for armor penetration. Kharn can deal with every target in the game, and retains the same level of effectiveness against each one. He doesn't break the bank, being cheaper than a kitted-out Daemon prince and only slightly more expensive than a normal khorne lord. He's clearly better than Huron against MEQ, TEQ, MCs and vehicles, although Huron is slightly better against hordes with his flamer. Kharn is also better than Lucius against TEQ, MCs, and Vehicles, while remaining slightly worse against MEQ and hordes. Abby obviously creams him, being over 100 points more, but on average Kharn has 7 attacks to Abby's 8 at S6 vs S8. He isn't that much worse in terms of offensive power, but loses by a mile in the defensive department. One big minus is the fact that Kharn cannot have a friendly unit support him without risk, but Kharn seldom needs support since he can be targeted with PF attacks regardless. In terms of survivability, Kharn ranks slightly above Huron and Lucius since he's immune to psychic powers.

In terms of pure effectiveness, I'd rank the choices into tiers like this:

Top Tier:

1)Abaddon
2)Ahriman

High Tier:

1)Kharn (I ranked the ability to destroy vehicles higher than Typhus' survivability)
2)Typhus

Low tier:

1)Huron
2)Lucius

Bottom Tier:

1) Fabius

Typhus gets my vote.Terminator armour,no physcic test when using nurgle's rot and wind of chaos,5+ invul.save,T.5 and the the fact that he always counts as using blight and frag grenades. He is also fearless and feels no pain.He has BS5 and WS5 and 4 wounds and I5 and 3 attacks.

Abaddon! He pawns j00

Typhus, autopasses psychic tests without needing to roll. Packs a force weapon too. This guy rocks.


I personally would love to vote for Ahriman, but as much play as he'll see once he's bought I'm gonna pay dearly for his points. Remember, Ahriman is a Land Raider.

Ahriman is a Land Raider.

*sadface*

I have to vote for Kharn. He is a good deal for his points and can decimate enemy squads. Immune to psychic powers of any kind and hit on 2+ really help, and make Kharn unique.

As good as abbadon is, I would much rather have two Daemon Princes with Wings for roughly the same cost.

Typhus desperately, desperately needs Eternal Warrior. Without it, his 4 Wounds become useless when a marine with a Str 8 PF gets a single wound on him. Other than that he's a pretty nasty character.

Huron is nasty too, especially packing warptime and a heavy flamer.

Lucius isn't quite as great as the rest but his points cost is significantly lower. If I were running a Slaanesh list I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Straight up: Abaddon- initiative 6 st 8....yeah
Point for point: Kharne- beast for the low point cost

whitedragon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:whitedragon:

Pipboy101 is saying that there is a character that can "take out" two Daemon Princes and a Greater Daemon, as in "engage and destroy".

Wow, my reading comp is Fail today.

EDIT:

Nurglitch, Kharn is a good choice and at least he does have an Invul save, but against anything that doesn't immediately die from his attacks, he will be killed pretty easily. And nobody is safe from getting squigged or spawned, but Abby will stick around alot longer than Kharn, Typhus, Lucius or Ahriman, and wreck havoc with his gnarly demon weapon all the while. It shoots pretty gnarly too. He is a supreme beatstick that makes the enemy quake in fear. All the other characters may as well be upgrade characters for how they stack up to Abby.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ol' Blackheart. His warptime heavy flamer and power weapon is pretty awesome.

Wait we are supposed to fear Abby?
I would
If he had a model that inspired a wee bit of fear because being beat by a 5 year old in trainy termi armour is just sad

But back to the question i have had Khorne kill a baneblade by hiimself and i just like Typhus as a model and rules wise so those are my votes though he is not the best

Abaddon is the absolute totally most epic character ever. Expensive but super-win.

I'm also a fan of Ahriman just cos of SO many psychic powers!

I took Kharn once and in Turn 1 he ate a Russ battlecannon - ID along with like 12 allied necrons. Never Again

Sometimes I imagine Kharn screaming incoherently, like that guy in Jet Li's "Danny the Dog".

id say abadon cuz he has tons of cheesy rules