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My question is a bit general, but my main concern is the Vendetta/Val.

Can someone start a unit inside a Vendetta, use it's scout move to the full 24" and then disembark the passengers all before turn 1?

I think in 4th edition, there was a rule that you couldn't embark/disembark if a transport moved over 12", but I can't find it for 5th edition.

Since technically the Vendetta has the scout rule, would the unit inside need to have scouts as well in order to disembark (ex. Stormtroopers)?

I appreciate in advance any help in this matter.

Thanks,

Steven

Models may not Disembark in the Scout Move, Period.

Page 67 wrote:A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has move

As you can see, in order to disembark, the unit must begin it's Movement Phase in the Transport. The Scout Move is NOT a Movement Phase. A Movement Phase is a Very Specific thing within the turn structure, which the scout move is not.

Not that it matters, as "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase", as per Page 70. Since the Scout Move Follows all the rules of the Movement phase (while still not becoming one), you would be forbidden from disembarking, even if you were permitted (which you are not, thus making it a moot point).

Gwar! wrote:Models may not Disembark in the Scout Move, Period.

Page 67 wrote:A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has move

As you can see, in order to disembark, the unit must begin it's Movement Phase in the Transport. The Scout Move is NOT a Movement Phase. A Movement Phase is a Very Specific thing within the turn structure, which the scout move is not.

Yet turbo-boost uses the exact same language of

When using their
turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the
Movement phase.

You are allowed to turbo boost during the scout movement so why would you not be allowed to disembark?

zannal wrote:You are allowed to turbo boost during the scout movement so why would you not be allowed to disembark?

Because, my condescending friend, the Scout move Follows the rules for the movement phase, but is NOT a movement phase. The rules for Disembarking do not use these rules. They state in order to disembark, you must begin inside the transport at the start of the Movement Phase, which the Scout move is not.

And as a free tip: If you are gonna copypaste from an Illegally scanned rulebook, remove the linebreaks to make it at least SEEM you typed it out like the rest of us.

Check the wording again:
"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark"
"When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase."

As you can see, Disembarking requires you to be in a Transport at the Start of a Movement Phase. Turbo Boosters does not. You may use them in a Movement phase, which a Scout move follows the rules for, so therefore you may turboboost during the scout, but cannot disembark.

I'm not particularly disagreeing, I just don't understand....

Why would you follow the rules for one, but not the other when they're both written in the same language? That sounds like selective reasoning.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'm not particularly disagreeing, I just don't understand....

Why would you follow the rules for one, but not the other when they're both written in the same language? That sounds like selective reasoning.

No, it is not. You have to understand.

One calls for them to be in the Transport at the Start of the Movement Phase. It specifically says "A unit that begins its Movement phase" may Disembark. One says you may use it IN the Movement Phase. Scouts lets you make a Free move, following all the movement phase rules, but it is NOT a Movement phase, and as such, the unit cannot possibly "Begin it's movement phase" during the scout move, so you cannot disembark. Turbo-Boosters work because it lets you use it in the Movement Phase, and, to reiterate, the Scout move is made using the Movement Phase Rules (so you can turbo Boost etc), but is not a Movement Phase.

Scout rules, BRB pg76:

This is done exactly as in their movement phase...

Sounds like it would be treated as a Movement Phase to me. Disembarking happens in circumstances other than the Movement phase.

By Gwar's logic, a unit that embarked in transport (not in transport an the beginning of their Movement) and the vehicle was "Wrecked" or "Destroyed" the passengers could not disembark. But they ccan.

I disagree with Gwar, I think a scout move is treated as an extra movement phase so that one phrase that he mentions isn't a restriction, it is fulfilled, I also strongly disagree with the idea that it is somehow different from the Turbo-boost rules and think you can't have one without the other.

However, disembarking is a movement made by the passengers of the vehicle, so unless the passengers have the ability to scout they would not be allowed to disembark.

Gwar wrote:Not that it matters, as "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase", as per Page 70. Since the Scout Move Follows all the rules of the Movement phase (while still not becoming one), you would be forbidden from disembarking, even if you were permitted (which you are not, thus making it a moot point).

While not untrue, the question at hand seems to be mostly directed towards possibly doing it with Valkyries or Vendettas, in which case due to their special disembark rules, you could disembark after moving flat out.

In order to disembark from the transport, the passengers would need to be able to perform a scout move, as far as I can tell.

I'll agree with solkan on that one - the passengers could disembark if they're the reason the transport uses Scout. It is, after all, a normal move to disembark.

Seems kinda crazy that lets say a scout Deffkopta uses its scout move to turbo 24 " then on its first turn go another 12 for 36" twin linked rocket , buzzsaw assault...Talk about a round one surprise that could end up a dead land raider if a group of koptas did that.

Frenzied Potato wrote:Seems kinda crazy that lets say a scout Deffkopta uses its scout move to turbo 24 " then on its first turn go another 12 for 36" twin linked rocket , buzzsaw assault...Talk about a round one surprise that could end up a dead land raider if a group of koptas did that.

How could a str 7 attack hurt a landraider?
(strength 3 * 2+1= 7)

zannal wrote:

Frenzied Potato wrote:Seems kinda crazy that lets say a scout Deffkopta uses its scout move to turbo 24 " then on its first turn go another 12 for 36" twin linked rocket , buzzsaw assault...Talk about a round one surprise that could end up a dead land raider if a group of koptas did that.

How could a str 7 attack hurt a landraider?
(strength 3 * 2+1= 7)

Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha
R24" S8 AP3 Assault 1 Linked

Wasn't referring to assaulting it with a buzzsaw taking it out. Most things thats true but you can still manage a first turn immoblized landraider with possibly more.

True you have a 1 out of six chance of glancing it, and its also true it cant be wrecked but an immobilized tank that has alot of facing weapons is a serious blow. Managing two hits like that taking out its main gun would basically create a newly formed impassable terrain.

I don't think I'd rely on the 65 deffkoptas it'd take to immobilize the Land Raider.

Better to kill light transports instead.

I can't see any clear cut answer to this one.

On one hand the scouts rule says to treat the move exactly as you would if it was in the movement phase. With a couple of exceptions.

On the other hand, because the scout move occurs before the first turn starts, it gives a way to get around not being able to assault on the turn you disembark (assuming you have first turn that is). Which seems a little loop-holey.

J.Black wrote:I can't see any clear cut answer to this one.

On one hand the scouts rule says to treat the move exactly as you would if it was in the movement phase. With a couple of exceptions.

On the other hand, because the scout move occurs before the first turn starts, it gives a way to get around not being able to assault on the turn you disembark (assuming you have first turn that is). Which seems a little loop-holey.

Disregarding the semantics that Gwar has pointed out for a second, one thing is absolutely, positively clear:

If the embarked unit doesn't also have the 'Scout' ability then it cannot disembark during the Scout move, period.

This is because disembarking is part of the EMBARKED UNIT'S move, not the VEHICLE'S.


So unless the unit inside also has the Scout move then we can most certainly say they cannot disembark during the Scout move. If the embarked unit also has the Scout rule. . .well. . .I'll let you get back to arguing that with Gwar.

I think you are all failing to realize Gwars point here, If you had a special ability, lets call it "Psychic shooty attack of doom" but that ability said that it is a shooting attack that is made in the assault phase after all assault moves have been made, would you then reason that you could elect to run in the assault phase, because you can run instead of shooting? No. You can only run in the Shooting phase, regardless of what "shooting" you do in any other phase.

so to apply it to this situation, a Scout move is a move made BEFORE the first movement phase, a disembark move can only be done in the movement phase, a transport cannot disgorge its troops after its scout move but before the first movement phase.

Thanks Yak and Demogerg for chipping in

Demogerg has what I am saying. Disembarking is very specific in that the Unit MUST begin its Movement Phase in a Transport. The Scout move is NOT by any streach of the imagination a Movement Phase (Which is defined and a Very Specific thing)

So as Yak pointed out and I mentioned earlier, it clearly requires the models being transported to have scout for this argument to carry any weight, so we can safely assume the discussion is regarding a unit with scout inside a vehicle with scout.

Per the scout rules, the infantry inside the vehicle are making "a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy." given the only exception listed to the bolded phrase describing the execution of the move is how close to the enemy you can be, we can safely say for all cases where the scouting unit is over 12" away from enemy models, they should be able to execute a move "exactly as in their Movement phase".

This to me means the scout move is a movement phase for all intents and purposes OTHER THAN how close you can come to the enemy. If you could have done a certain action given it was the units movement phase then you can do that action in the scout move, except for if it brings you in that 12" restricted zone.

The problem is, even though the movement is done the same, it is not a movement phase. In order for a unit to disembark, they must both be able to move and begin their movement phase inside a Vehicle.

The scout move is not a movement phase, no matter how you twist it. Therefore, a unit cannot have begun its movement phase inside the transport during the scout move, and therefore cannot disembark. This is in ADDITION to the normal movement rules (as they are not even found in the movement rules, but rather the rules for vehicles.)

to further strengthen Gwars arguement here,

On page 9 is describes how to play the game 1. The Movement Phase "the player can move any of his units that are capable of doing so. See the Movement rules for more details of how to move your forces"

In the movement rules section there is nothing listed for embarking or disembarking your models. Embarking and Disembarking is a Specific action that is done in association with vehicles, it is performed in the movement phase, but it is not associated with the movement phase.

In the rules for Scouts it says "After both sides have deployed, but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move.

As embarking and disembarking is a special move that is associated with vehicles and not your units' "infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase" then you cannot do it with your scout move.

/thread

Demogerg wrote:to further strengthen Gwars arguement here,

On page 9 is describes how to play the game 1. The Movement Phase "the player can move any of his units that are capable of doing so. See the Movement rules for more details of how to move your forces"

In the movement rules section there is nothing listed for embarking or disembarking your models. Embarking and Disembarking is a Specific action that is done in association with vehicles, it is performed in the movement phase, but it is not associated with the movement phase.

In the rules for Scouts it says "After both sides have deployed, but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move.

As embarking and disembarking is a special move that is associated with vehicles and not your units' "infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase" then you cannot do it with your scout move.

/thread

But by this justification, neither can you turbo boost, nor can vehicles use scout to move at all, because vehicle movement is a "special move that is associated with vehicles", Gwar's argument has merit, although I do not agree with it, but this would be far too restrictive if applied across the board (as any rule must be). You are saying nothing outside the rules listed in the main movement section is valid in a scout move, and it's not particularly well supported by the rules nor would it match up with alot of commonly accepted actions which are undertaken in the scout movement.

The reason you cannot disembark is nothing to do with movement, it is to do with the fact that you MUST BEGIN A MOVEMENT PHASE on the transport before you disembark, which the scout move is not. You can move in the Scout move, and turbo Boost in the scout move, because these are things you do in the movement phase. Disembarking is very explicit, you must begin the Phase on the transport, which is impossible to do before the first movement phase starts.

Voluntary embarking and disembarking is done ONLY during the movement phase of a players turn.

A scout move is done before the 'game' actually starts and is not in ANY movement phase (even though you can still move[because it states you can still use the MOVEMENT rules from the movement phase])

Of course, I am in the office and no books. Just thought I could clarify

Drunkspleen wrote:

Demogerg wrote:to further strengthen Gwars arguement here,

On page 9 is describes how to play the game 1. The Movement Phase "the player can move any of his units that are capable of doing so. See the Movement rules for more details of how to move your forces"

In the movement rules section there is nothing listed for embarking or disembarking your models. Embarking and Disembarking is a Specific action that is done in association with vehicles, it is performed in the movement phase, but it is not associated with the movement phase.

In the rules for Scouts it says "After both sides have deployed, but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move.

As embarking and disembarking is a special move that is associated with vehicles and not your units' "infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase" then you cannot do it with your scout move.

/thread

But by this justification, neither can you turbo boost, nor can vehicles use scout to move at all, because vehicle movement is a "special move that is associated with vehicles", Gwar's argument has merit, although I do not agree with it, but this would be far too restrictive if applied across the board (as any rule must be). You are saying nothing outside the rules listed in the main movement section is valid in a scout move, and it's not particularly well supported by the rules nor would it match up with alot of commonly accepted actions which are undertaken in the scout movement.

Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong.

Look at the Turbo Boost USR. It mentions "the Movement phase" as a point of referance.

Look at the Scout USR. It mentions you can make a normal move "done exactly as in the movement phase".

If you argue that you cannot perform a Turbo Boost during a Scout move then you are also arguing that an infantry model cannot move 6" when taking a Scout move (P11 BGB). Identical wording.

But wait, you say. Scout is giving me permission to make a normal move. Whats a normal move (go to page 11); Ah.. "6" in the Movement phase"...What?! Its not the movement phase, So I cant move?

Nonsense. I do(nt - cant quote me..Yarr) agree with G(~#)war & Demogerg.

Edit: Also - What Yak said. It also makes intersting possibilities for first-turn charging from a phalanx of Penal legions & valkyrie transports!

As much as it pains me to admit, Gwar is spot on ( there ya go, Gwar, bragging rights +1 )

The rules for disembarking clearly state that your troops MUST be aboard the vehicle at the start of the Movement Phase.

If you were leap off during a Scout move, which PRECEEDS the movement phase, you would cease to be aboard at the start of the Movement Phase, as the rule for disembarking demands.

Therefore, in order to fully comply with the rules for disembarking, your troops need to stay on their asses for the duration of the Scout move and wait until the normal Movement Phase in order to be allowed to disembark during that turn.

Im just agreeing with Gwar!... cause my cat made me do it...

How about embarking then? ;-)

Harkainos wrote:Voluntary embarking and disembarking is done ONLY during the movement phase of a players turn.

A scout move is done before the 'game' actually starts and is not in ANY movement phase (even though you can still move[because it states you can still use the MOVEMENT rules from the movement phase])

Of course, I am in the office and no books. Just thought I could clarify

I'm quoting this to note that voluntary embarking only can happen in the movement phase. /jest

Razerous wrote:Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong.

Look at the Turbo Boost USR. It mentions "the Movement phase" as a point of referance. (so does disembarking)

Look at the Scout USR. It mentions you can make a normal move "done exactly as in the movement phase".

If you argue that you cannot perform a Turbo Boost during a Scout move then you are also arguing that an infantry model cannot move 6" when taking a Scout move (P11 BGB). Identical wording.

But wait, you say. Scout is giving me permission to make a normal move. Whats a normal move (go to page 11); Ah.. "6" in the Movement phase"...What?! Its not the movement phase, So I cant move? (That's not the justification which was in question. In fact this argument you are refuting here is closer to Gwar's than the one I was discussing)

Nonsense. I do(nt - cant quote me..Yarr) agree with G(~#)war & Demogerg.

Edit: Also - What Yak said. It also makes intersting possibilities for first-turn charging from a phalanx of Penal legions & valkyrie transports!

Demogerg's justification though is that because it's not listed in the main movement section of the rulebook, it's not part of a normal move but rather is a move "associated with vehicles" and can't be done which WOULD include turbo boosting and the other things I mention, I am not wrong because you are argueing against claims which frankly I never made, I was simply pointing out why Demogerg's argument couldn't possibly be valid by citing them as examples. So in this case Razerous, it is you who is "Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong." because you failed to understand what my post was even discussing.