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An interesting topic today peoples, and one that I often contemplate!

The title is slightly misleading, as I'm not looking to discuss the Religious version of this, so much as the socio-political ones. The question is simple. At what point is a line drawn under actions of the past?

For example, The British Empire. We did some gakky things when forging it, and at it's height. Explotation, slavery, genocide, raping, pillaging, you name it, we did it. But why should I feel any guilt or responsibility? I had precisely nothing to do with it. I cannot, and indeed, will not, be held responsible for the actions of ancestors I've never met, and who might never have been directly involved in it.

And yet, I do still benefit from the old Empire. Britain is a stupidly rich country for it's size, all thanks to the Empire. Should this drum in some humility and guilt? Some countries are still severely screwed from our occupation, and my life is better because of the occupations?

Now thats just one example. Another might be the Middle East, and how some of the extremists are still pissed off about the Crusades etc, which stopped hundreds of years ago. How can they hold any country responsible for the actions that long ago?

So when do you let go of the past, and treat it as a bad memory?

Let it go. I am a firm believer that current generations, who took no part in the misdeeds their ancestors might have done, should feel no guilt.

This whole reparations debate has gone on in the US for a while. I never owned a slave. I never drove a native American from their land. The unfortunate fact is that, that's how society was and how territories grew back then. I come from a mostly German heritage. Does that mean I can go over to Italy and demand preferential treatment or some type of financial damages because the Romans kicked the crap out of the people that would become Germany? No, it's how business was done back then.

It reminds me of an exchange between a Foriegn exchange student from Kenya and an African American student. The local student was going on and on about perceived inequalities and thier African Heritage. The Kenyan could only laugh. The local student was offended. The Kenyan told them they are not African American, they were American. He told them they had no idea of what inequality is and called them hypocrites for claiming inequality in one breath and then championing affirmative action in the next. It was a refreshing take on the subject matters.

You Sir, should have no responsibility or guilt over actions you did not endorse or execute.

And yet I continue to benefit from the actions of those who have gone before me?

This isn't so much a moral quandry I find myself, so much as a topic I thought I'd enjoy discussing.

For example, the African American you mentioned. Now a lot of what they might say can be filed under 'chip on shoulder culturally' but, and I think it's fair to say (though feel free to disagree and correct f necessary) that Black Americans do still meet quite a bit of difficulty due to their colouration, thus some annoyance is justified.

Also, on the subject of Black Americans, remember, it's still less than 50 years since they were allowed to Vote in the US, which is a lot more recent than the Roman's.

So yeah, all about timescale I guess. Being Scottish, I could feel aggrieved at how the English behaved towards us under Longshanks. This would be unfair. Yet, the Oil in our waters is pumped out, and the proceeds go direct to Westminster. I could get annoyed by that (Though I am aware Scotland gets more Tax money for spending per head than England, so that balances it out somewhat).

My country is supposed to apologize whenever we go to Indonesia, Aruba or those other places where we used to have colonies. It is getting rather old and tedious.

Do you think it is enough to acknowledge your countrty has been an international arsehole at some point though? Should that be enough to the peoples of the countries still suffering from the exploitation?

I mean, look at Africa. Huge portions of that continent are still in turmoil, arguably due to the messings of West when we had our colonial phase. The actions of our forefathers are still having some kind of impact there, whereas we got away scotfree.

Apologies are like arsholes, everybody got one.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Do you think it is enough to acknowledge your countrty has been an international arsehole at some point though? Should that be enough to the peoples of the countries still suffering from the exploitation?

I mean, look at Africa. Huge portions of that continent are still in turmoil, arguably due to the messings of West when we had our colonial phase. The actions of our forefathers are still having some kind of impact there, whereas we got away scotfree.

Well, my country had no real hand in Africa, but when you look at Indonesia, Aruba and the likes that were under our yoke, you can see that they are doing okay. We said sorry, we gave them money for whatever reasons and that's that. But every time our PM goes over he has to apologize, even though we're now homies 4 life and all that.

From what I understand its all my fault. But, like the French Foreign Legion, I hold my head high and lazily walk down the street humming 'I regret nothing.'

"Sorry we fethed up your country, here have a care package of tiny American flags and this bitching crying eagle t-shirt?"

Man, I wish we could just do that.

So do you feel a country can be absolved of it's behavour in the past, or is it more the populace that eventually finds that.

If it's the country, how long? A generation? Three generations? Does it depend upon the particular action?

If it's up to them, forever. Personally I think that enough is enough at some point. It's been more than fifty years now, we don't need to be reminded of it all the time any more.

Lets face it, our ancestors were jerks.

Not our fault they were that way. I am apologizing for nothing.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And yet I continue to benefit from the actions of those who have gone before me?

This isn't so much a moral quandry I find myself, so much as a topic I thought I'd enjoy discussing.

For example, the African American you mentioned. Now a lot of what they might say can be filed under 'chip on shoulder culturally' but, and I think it's fair to say (though feel free to disagree and correct f necessary) that Black Americans do still meet quite a bit of difficulty due to their colouration, thus some annoyance is justified.

Also, on the subject of Black Americans, remember, it's still less than 50 years since they were allowed to Vote in the US, which is a lot more recent than the Roman's.

So yeah, all about timescale I guess. Being Scottish, I could feel aggrieved at how the English behaved towards us under Longshanks. This would be unfair. Yet, the Oil in our waters is pumped out, and the proceeds go direct to Westminster. I could get annoyed by that (Though I am aware Scotland gets more Tax money for spending per head than England, so that balances it out somewhat).

I'll address the Americans of African heritage, as it's what's tossed in my face alot more than Scottish history lol.
The African Americans benefit in today's society just as much as I do. Part of the problem as I see it is the self segregating that is human nature. Nothing pens blacks, whites, hispanics, asians etc etc into living where they do. It's a choice. It's comforting to live where your culture is common. "Well they live in the urban ghetto and there's no opportunities the white kids get in the suburbs." Then leave the ghetto. I'm white. I grew up poor. Hand me downs and doallar store apparel was the norm in my house. When I was old enough to venture out on my own I could have stayed where my father set his roots. I didn't though. There was no work, my opportunities were limited both because of the location and my own choices (Spent alot more time chasing girls than chasing a decent GPA). I got out of there and made my own opportunites. I joined the military, both to get away from the situation where my family was stagnating, and to get the money for a higher education. Now instead of living in Southern Indiana toiling at a minimum wage, soul crushing job, I live in Houston working as an Oilfield Service Engineer developing and using some serious hardware and supporting software. It is just easier to complain about one's accepted lot in life that to step up and change it. Given the number of African American only scholarships and schools (there are no such things for whites, that would be racist) they are at an advantage over the likes of myself. In the end they CHOOSE to hamper themselves, and then complain about it. I work with two African Americans, one Indian American(native of India, not a native American), two Pakistani Americans, one Mexican American, and two more white Americans. Everybody can change their lot in life here in America if they have the determination and will power to do so. Nobody handed me and I clawed my way up from the dung heap to be where I am today.

If anything racism has swung 180 degrees. There is no White Entertainment Televeision, there is no White American College Fund, A college institution or any private business or institution for that matter that restricted it's services to whites only would be labled as racist, but it's ok for an African American campus. The collective white guilt of this country is sickening. EQUALITY means a level playing field. It doesn't mean one side gets stacked because of past wrongs.

I don't ever feel the need to apologise for the Empire, but I fully accept that what a lot of what was done was wrong. You could even take the stance that a lot of the wrongs done, happened or continued after we left. Australia & New Zealand could of faced up to their responsibilities to the indigenous peoples along time ago, but this is still ongoing, nothing to do with us. America? Well you cut your ties with us a very long time ago, so the near genocide you inflicted on the native population is nothing to do with us. Along with Canada, those are countries where the white man took over the land.

India and Africa, the native populations are now in control of their countries. Did we hurt or help in the long run? I don't know. We certainly exploited the resources, but that is no different to the US nowadays. They use the dollar and bribes to get what they want. Look how many dodgy leaders have stayed in power so that the business interests of American companies are protected.

Robert Mugabe and such like leaders like to drag the Empire in to the mix when having ago at us, but that is a load of cobblers. They like to blame us for all their woes. We didn't leave them with a mentality that accepts murdering political opponents as the norm, burning so called "witches" by placing tires around them, hunting down Albinos and using their body parts to work "magic" or using all the countries resources to line their own pockets. All those things are cultural things, nothing to do with us. India has it's own caste system and violence, nothing to do with us, again a cultural thing, something that was there, the same as Africa, before we arrived.

We should learn from the past, not keep apologising for it once a few generations have passed.

Wolfstan wrote:I don't ever feel the need to apologise for the Empire, but I fully accept that what a lot of what was done was wrong. You could even take the stance that a lot of the wrongs done, happened or continued after we left. Australia & New Zealand could of faced up to their responsibilities to the indigenous peoples along time ago, but this is still ongoing, nothing to do with us. America? Well you cut your ties with us a very long time ago, so the near genocide you inflicted on the native population is nothing to do with us. Along with Canada, those are countries where the white man took over the land.

India and Africa, the native populations are now in control of their countries. Did we hurt or help in the long run? I don't know. We certainly exploited the resources, but that is no different to the US nowadays. They use the dollar and bribes to get what they want. Look how many dodgy leaders have stayed in power so that the business interests of American companies are protected.

No apologies on your end but you seem to blame the US and others for lots of stuff. Now thats proper literary aikido. Love it!

Not my intention to pass the buck, just pointing out that although we had a hand in messing things up in the past, there have been plenty of other culprits involved as well. July 4th 1776 was when everything ended for us in the US. As I recall all the Cowboy & Indian movies are based in the 1800's, so it's safe to say we weren't involved in that.

Nothing pens blacks, whites, hispanics, asians etc etc into living where they do. It's a choice.

That's not always true and I'm sure you know it. Good for you on being able to get out of ...wherever it was. That's not always possible, you might not be fit enough for military service.

Or gay. For example.

Or stuck caring for siblings, or etc etc etc.

Now I'm not for one moment saying that every person is stuck in X/Y/Z, but to say that every person has the option to get out isn't true at all.

There is no White Entertainment Televeision

It's called the default setting.

Talk about sins of the past...

...I'm reading some awesome stuff in a book called Overthrow. It deals with some activities the United States partook in in relation to other countries. Its a crazy good read so far.

reds8n wrote:

Nothing pens blacks, whites, hispanics, asians etc etc into living where they do. It's a choice.

That's not always true and I'm sure you know it. Good for you on being able to get out of ...wherever it was. That's not always possible, you might not be fit enough for military service.

Or gay. For example.

Or stuck caring for siblings, or etc etc etc.

Now I'm not for one moment saying that every person is stuck in X/Y/Z, but to say that every person has the option to get out isn't true at all.

There is no White Entertainment Televeision

It's called the default setting.

There are always ways to get out. It might not be the military. It might come down to just taking a big risk. I can point to personal expierence on that as well. When I made the choice to leave the military I didn't have a degree yet. I was tired of the situation in the military and after much thought, found it would be better for my family and I if I were to move on to what we hoped would be bigger and better things. There was no safety net, the military is all I had done for my adult life at that point. I just don;t believe that people, unless bed ridden or otherwise incapable of caring for themselves, can not find a way to get out of a bad situation if they have the will to do so. There are plenty of amzaing and inspiring stories of people that have done just that.

Side comment: You can join the military if you're gay. Recruiters are not allowed to ask or make judgements on appearance or behavior regarding sexual orientation. Once you're in you just have to keep it to yourself under current law.

On White Entertainment Television: Have you seen American television? To be honest more programs on TV (we have a four year old so alot of TV is kids programming as well) seems to have a Latin theme than anything else, but that could just be regional. Most of the default setting, as you put it, is made for as many cultures as possible. Stations aren't worried about what races are watching, they just want numbers.

djphranq wrote:Talk about sins of the past...

...I'm reading some awesome stuff in a book called Overthrow. It deals with some activities the United States partook in in relation to other countries. Its a crazy good read so far.

Awesome. I'm sure it says we screwed everyone and are guilty for all crimes since the Crimean War, including said Crimean War. I believe Czar Nicholas was overheard to have said at the time "Drozni no plavida" which translates as "its Bush's fault."

As was concluded by myself and orkeosaurus...on the exact same issue, in a another very similar thread with almost exactly the same points raised as MDG gave at the start here ...the only and best apology we can give to people our ancestors wronged is to acknowledge what has been done and ensure it is never done again.

Tyras wrote:

There are always ways to get out. It might not be the military. It might come down to just taking a big risk. I can point to personal expierence on that as well. When I made the choice to leave the military I didn't have a degree yet. I was tired of the situation in the military and after much thought, found it would be better for my family and I if I were to move on to what we hoped would be bigger and better things. There was no safety net, the military is all I had done for my adult life at that point. I just don;t believe that people, unless bed ridden or otherwise incapable of caring for themselves, can not find a way to get out of a bad situation if they have the will to do so. There are plenty of amzaing and inspiring stories of people that have done just that.

Side comment: You can join the military if you're gay. Recruiters are not allowed to ask or make judgements on appearance or behavior regarding sexual orientation. Once you're in you just have to keep it to yourself under current law.

Just to clarify then, if the space of one post we've already moved on from every person can "get on their bike" or "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" to accepting that some can't through, say, illness.

Again I'm not saying that every person stuck is there through bad luck or is not able to break out, I'm sure there's many lazy people who don't or can't be bothered.
BUt it is ridiculous to say that every person can do that, not least when the social and economic structures we have set up rely upon there being a sizable pool of people worse off than us. Our societies need that underclass for capitalism to function. It's a charming idea to say that "anyone can be president", but it's only partially true. If person X is president 2012-2016 ( as an example) then that automatically means that many many many milion people can't be. The systems we have relies entirely upon a certain % of people failing to do X/Y/Z etc etc.

Yes, indeed. So as long as you lie and none of your colleagues find out, then you're fine. Great. What were you saying about the real meaning of equality earlier ?

On White Entertainment Television: Have you seen American television? To be honest more programs on TV (we have a four year old so alot of TV is kids programming as well) seems to have a Latin theme than anything else, but that could just be regional. Most of the default setting, as you put it, is made for as many cultures as possible. Stations aren't worried about what races are watching, they just want numbers.

What, like Friends ? Arrestted Development ? Cheers ? Or the many many many other shows where it is largely if not entirely a white cast ?

Now I don't think that's automatically a bad thing, I tend to think shows should rely upon the script, acting, whatever.

That said I can't say that, to my knowledge anyway, I've seen much (any ?) of the Black Entertainment....err... Network ? Televsion ? .. whatever, so I acknowledge that they could be a hotbed of ...I dunno... anti white sentiment. Or whatever.

I will say that most of the shows over here that are knocked out to try and meet some quota or show diversity are fething terrible. Yes, "Little Miss Jocelyn", I am looking at you ! But there's just as many gakky "white" or mainstream shows as well.

All humanity is broken.

The "noble savage" is a myth. All peoples were and are violent. They all made war, took slaves, pillaged, exploited the land, hunted animals into extinction, etc. Victim groups would have done the same as their "oppressors given the population or technology required to do it.

Apologies or reparations are meaningless. All sides are self-interested and use their "causes" as a smokescreen to veil the truth: They want to win as much as they can (for themselves). Life spreads and devours life to thrive.

Let go of your illusions.

-Nurgle

I think we've gotten off track a bit. It's my belief that I don't owe anybody a damned thing for what my father, grandfather on and on from there might have done. All I can do, as somebody else said, is to endeavor not to repeat the mistakes they might have made.

As a side note to the other discussion, when your kid is watching Dora the Explorer, Diego Rescue Adventures, Handy Manny, learning Spanish on Sesame Street or from Dragon Tails (tales w/e) one can't help but to feel that programming is a bit skewed to another race's preference. You listed shows with a majority white cast, some in syndication, but what about The George Lopez show? The Bernie Mac show, also now in syndication due to his untimely passing. Standard TV isn't as monochromed as one might think.

The gay in the military thing, I never agreed with the policy, so I'm not going to argue for it. I was merely pointing out that you can get in as a gay. as a note to the actual regulation under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, even if his or her colleagues were to find out, they would either have to make a sworn statement that they were gay, or be caught in a homosexual act to be removed from the military. There's a third part to the don't ask don't tell bit. It's don't persue. A commander can not open an investigation unless the Soldier was caught in a homosexual act or is openly admitting homosexuality. A commander could be found guilty of abusing his rank or position, dereliction of duty and behavior unbecoming a commisioned officer if he were to persue an investigation without those prior mentioned conditions being met. Now, all of that being said there's nothing saying that Soldiers wouldn't risk punishment for beating a gay soldier. It's a genuine fear of a commander, hence the don't tell portion of that trifecta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

utan wrote:All humanity is broken.

The "noble savage" is a myth. All peoples were and are violent. They all made war, took slaves, pillaged, exploited the land, hunted animals into extinction, etc. Victim groups would have done the same as their "oppressors given the population or technology required to do it.

Apologies or reparations are meaningless. All sides are self-interested and use their "causes" as a smokescreen to veil the truth: They want to win as much as they can (for themselves). Life spreads and devours life to thrive.

Let go of your illusions.

-Nurgle

Agree

Tyras wrote:
There are always ways to get out. It might not be the military. It might come down to just taking a big risk. I can point to personal expierence on that as well. When I made the choice to leave the military I didn't have a degree yet. I was tired of the situation in the military and after much thought, found it would be better for my family and I if I were to move on to what we hoped would be bigger and better things. There was no safety net, the military is all I had done for my adult life at that point. I just don;t believe that people, unless bed ridden or otherwise incapable of caring for themselves, can not find a way to get out of a bad situation if they have the will to do so. There are plenty of amzaing and inspiring stories of people that have done just that.

I think a lot of it comes down to varying interpretations of a 'bad situation'. I'll use my own life as an example.

I graduated from a highly ranked Liberal Arts school a little over a year ago. My grades were good, not as good as they could have been (I spent too much time on my own projects), but certainly not bad. My test scores are in the 95th percentile. However, I have no money and owe about 120k in student loans. I work as a personal trainer, which was fairly lucrative until the economy went to hell (luxury good and all that). I have very little marketable work experience (hard to find a 'real' job that will flex hours around school), so my prospects in the current market are slim at best. I've been accepted at several grad school, but they won't give me enough financial aid to attend. The obvious fallback, find a job, doesn't apply due to the economy. Joining the military would be a waste of my time because the maximum GI bill payout, which I wouldn't get due to restrictions on my deployability (various athletic injuries), would only scratch the surface of my loans after 2 more years of accrual; while leaving me in the same place upon return to civilian life. The Peace Corps is a slightly better option. It pays out less, but would ensure me experience abroad, and thereby enhance my credentials vis a vis my application to the FSO exam. Of course, neither of these options guarantees the deferral of privately held loans, which neither I nor my parents/signatories can afford to pay at the moment.

In essence, I have to wait. I cannot get out of my bad situation, which to many people would seem fairly good given that I hold a degree. Unfortunately, the longer I wait the harder it gets to move forward due to a dwindling recommendation pool. I know plenty of people without degrees in similar situations, generally dragging the financial refuse of failed escape attempts in their wake.

Declare banktruptcy. Problem solved and you stick it to the evil bankers who made the mistake of giving you a loan (ok mostly average Joe as the government guarantees but who cares, if its good enough for California its good enough for me).

dogma wrote:

Tyras wrote:
There are always ways to get out. It might not be the military. It might come down to just taking a big risk. I can point to personal expierence on that as well. When I made the choice to leave the military I didn't have a degree yet. I was tired of the situation in the military and after much thought, found it would be better for my family and I if I were to move on to what we hoped would be bigger and better things. There was no safety net, the military is all I had done for my adult life at that point. I just don;t believe that people, unless bed ridden or otherwise incapable of caring for themselves, can not find a way to get out of a bad situation if they have the will to do so. There are plenty of amzaing and inspiring stories of people that have done just that.

I think a lot of it comes down to varying interpretations of a 'bad situation'. I'll use my own life as an example.

I graduated from a highly ranked Liberal Arts school a little over a year ago. My grades were good, not as good as they could have been (I spent too much time on my own projects), but certainly not bad. My test scores are in the 95th percentile. However, I have no money and owe about 120k in student loans. I work as a personal trainer, which was fairly lucrative until the economy went to hell (luxury good and all that). I have very little marketable work experience (hard to find a 'real' job that will flex hours around school), so my prospects in the current market are slim at best. I've been accepted at several grad school, but they won't give me enough financial aid to attend. The obvious fallback, find a job, doesn't apply due to the economy. Joining the military would be a waste of my time because the maximum GI bill payout, which I wouldn't get due to restrictions on my deployability (various athletic injuries), would only scratch the surface of my loans after 2 more years of accrual; while leaving me in the same place upon return to civilian life. The Peace Corps is a slightly better option. It pays out less, but would ensure me experience abroad, and thereby enhance my credentials vis a vis my application to the FSO exam. Of course, neither of these options guarantees the deferral of privately held loans, which neither I nor my parents/signatories can afford to pay at the moment.

In essence, I have to wait. I cannot get out of my bad situation, which to many people would seem fairly good given that I hold a degree. Unfortunately, the longer I wait the harder it gets to move forward due to a dwindling recommendation pool. I know plenty of people without degrees in similar situations, generally dragging the financial refuse of failed escape attempts in their wake.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties. I guess I was a bit misleading or at least not complete in my explanation. Short of winning the lottery, going from a bad situation to a better one can take time. I've been working my ass off for 17 years, and I'm still not in a position to say "I have Arrived" lol. I was able to get to a spot where I could pay my monthly bills and put a roof over my head and three meals a day after about three years from leaving Southern Indiana. As long as you can maintian the will to improve your lot in life I am sure you will succeed. Alot of the points I see in race based debates is that people are in bad situations by default due to their ethnicity, and have less of a chance than other races. I disagree.

dogma wrote:However, I have no money and owe about 120k in student loans.

Is that a typo, if not I'd like to know which bank you used, they seem generous.

Frazzled wrote:Declare banktruptcy. Problem solved and you stick it to the evil bankers who made the mistake of giving you a loan (ok mostly average Joe as the government guarantees but who cares, if its good enough for California its good enough for me).

Can not get rid of (most) Student Loans that way, most (all?) are immune to bankruptcies.

Really? You sure about that? I could be wrong but I don't think so. I was of a mind that personal bankruptcies didn't discharge obligations for children you child support payment delinquent SOBs, taxes, and fees related to administration of the bankruptcy itself. Mind you my focus hasn't been on personal bankruptices so I could be wrong, but don't see why.

EDIT: Correction it is substantially harder to get out of student loan debts-too many people were doing what I suggested. Law changed since I took that class.

Here's my alternative. Marry up.