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I recently bought 10 Scorpions and Banshees to try them out in my games and I'm now struggling which unit is better in which role.
I came to the conclusion that the Scorpions are a more flexible choice with infiltration or flanking with or without a dedicated transport.
Am I wrong here? Please give me some tactics or combos where the Banshees shine, and/or how I should use both units to their best effect.

Greets
Schepp himself

Terminators are one arguement.

Banshees will own terminators. Scorpions will get owned by them.

Also, necrons don't get a WBB roll from banshees.

Ahh the finesse of the Space Elves. One CC specialist isn't enough for them, no, they need three.

Ups:
Banshees: Powerweapons, Fleet
Scorpions: Infiltrate, Str 4, Mandiblasters,
Harlequins: Rending, Fleet, Invulnerable Save

Downs:
Banshees: Str 3, no Inv Save
Scorpions: 0-1 powerweapon, lack of Fleet
Harlequins: Expensive, Str 3, 0-1 powerweapon

Honestly, I see Scorpions best used again mid-high toughness, low-save models. They have S4, which is rare in the Eldar list, and can inflict a pile of wounds that just don't bypass armor, unfortunately.

I'm just asking because Scorpions seem to deal almost as much damage against Meq than Banshees but are superior against almost all other targets, especially hordes. Combine that with the ability to outflank with or without a serpent. the "best" choice seem rather obvious. I will use the ladies nonetheless, but I don't see fleeting cutting it for the Banshees.

Greets
Schepp himself

There is a long debate about this topic over all incarnations of the game.
Finally, it comes down to personal preference since both units have their pros and cons.

Today, I think outflanking Scorpions mounted in a Serpent are a viable option. Such a unit can be used to silence or eliminate enemy guns.

On the other hand, Banshees mounted in a Serpent are a good counter-strike unit if the enemy is doomed.

I have always preferred banshees both mechanically and for flavor.

Scorpions do well against nids or ork, while Banshees do better against MEQ types. All depends on what you need. I don't think you could say one undoubtably better than the other at everything.

If you can't decide, then take the best of both worlds and throw both on the field.

i personally take a 10 ma scorpion squad, and let them rip entire armies apart by them self. banshees never seem to do much

I just hate the 3 strength on banshees. If you have doom then they are fine, but without it can be painful at times.

statu- concerning your sig, why the 6 attacks at I 6? where does that come from in a scorpion squad? and why would scorpions nearly always be hitting on a 3+? they have 4 WS, not 5.

Schepp himself wrote:I'm just asking because Scorpions seem to deal almost as much damage against Meq than Banshees but are superior against almost all other targets, especially hordes. Combine that with the ability to outflank with or without a serpent. the "best" choice seem rather obvious. I will use the ladies nonetheless, but I don't see fleeting cutting it for the Banshees.

Greets
Schepp himself

Fleet is very necessary for banshees. Otherwise they can't get into combat easily from an unmoved transport.

When I played Eldar during 3rd, I had both. This gave me nice tactical flexibility. I think in 5th I would go with scorpions, as has been said before the banshees strength3 is what really hurts them. Banshees vs a termy squad can be nice, but if they are assault termies and have shield's your toast. If I was starting Eldar again, and I had to choose between 2 units of scorps vs a unit of scorps and a unit of banshees, I would go with 2 scorps. Too many orks to deal with IMO.

GG

skipdog172 wrote:I just hate the 3 strength on banshees. If you have doom then they are fine, but without it can be painful at times.

statu- concerning your sig, why the 6 attacks at I 6? where does that come from in a scorpion squad? and why would scorpions nearly always be hitting on a 3+? they have 4 WS, not 5.

Don't get that either. The Exarch has 5 attacks on the charge at I6 (2 base, +1 charge, +1 mandiblaster, +1 two hand weapons (either chainsabres or ordinary loadout)).

Exarch_Nektel wrote:Fleet is very necessary for banshees. Otherwise they can't get into combat easily from an unmoved transport.

I get that, but when they are there, they don't pack that much punch. How do you use them then? In combination with a doom casting farseer (on bike or attached)?
Even if the combo with doom makes them work great, I don't see it having a much bigger impact on the game. Biggetr than a "undoped" scorpion squad.

Thoughts?

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Thanks for all the replies up to now!

I use a full squad of Banshees in conjunction with a CC oriented Autarch. I put them in a wave serpent to get them to their destination. When they disembark, I charge my intended target and pretty much always wipe it out completely. I win the combat, anyways. I usually fight MEQs, and this always works.

Banshees are great vs MEQs. I guess I was talking Metagame, in that Scorps do better overall, and are just slightly less powerful vs MEQs than Banshees.

GG

Banshees are great with Doom. Also remember, their power weapons ignore FNP (which is starting to become more common).

Scorpions are solid due to that they have a 3+ save and Str 4.

Personally, I like the idea of running them with a farseer: With Banshees, Doom and Mindwar; With Scorpions Mindwar and Fortune. The ability to take out a sarge or nob is pretty useful.

Banshees also do better against Terminators.

Banshees Acrobatic option is very nice, they always get the +1 Attack even when charged, as well as swinging first.

Anarchyman99 wrote:Banshees Acrobatic option is very nice, they always get the +1 Attack even when charged, as well as swinging first.

the greatest thing is that it's only 5 points.

Nurglitch wrote:Banshees also do better against Terminators.

But not assualt Terminators

Yup, against Assault Terminators. Hitting first with Power Weapons murders Lightening Claws and Storm Shields alike.

mathhammer time-

10 banshees vs. meqs- 30 attacks on charge, attacks first, 4+ to hit, so 15 hits, then 5/6 to wound, we'll be extra generous and give them 3 meqs dead(tho it is more like 2.5), would be 3 terms dead as well(more like 2 if they have their 3+ invuln)

10 scorps vs. meqs- 40 attacks on charge, attacks first, 4+ to hit, so 20 hits, then 4+ to wound, so 10 wounds and on average 3+ will die, or 1-2 terms

So scorpions do slightly better against meqs, excluding exarchs participation and slightly worse against terminators, but about the same vs. terms w/ 3+ invulns.

I don't think the very very slight improvement vs. terminators is worth it.

Yup, against Assault Terminators. Hitting first with Power Weapons murders Lightening Claws and Storm Shields alike.

Uhm... No.

Vs assault terminators assuming a majority TH SS
both strike before Terminators

not on the charge
1 Banshee has a 89.1975% of doing 0 wounds
1 Scorpion has a 88.1974% of doing 0 wounds

skipdog172:

Let's run those number again, shall we?

Against Tactical Marines
Howling Banshees
Number: 10
Attacks: 30
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 15
To Wound: 0.33...
EV Wound: 5

Striking Scorpions
Number: 10
Attacks: 40
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 20
To Wound: 0.5
EV Wound: 10
Non-save: 0.33...
EV non-Save: 3.33...

Against Terminators w/o Storm Shields*
Howling Banshees
Number: 10
Attacks: 30
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 15
To Wound: 0.33...
EV Wound: 5
Non-save: 0.66...
EV non-Save: 3.33...

Striking Scorpions
Number: 10
Attacks: 40
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 20
To Wound: 0.5
EV Wound: 10
Non-save: 0.166...
EV non-Save: 1.66...

Against Terminators w/Storm Shields*
Howling Banshees
Number: 10
Attacks: 30
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 15
To Wound: 0.33...
EV Wound: 5
Non-save: 0.33...
EV non-Save: 1.66...

Striking Scorpions
Howling Banshees
Number: 10
Attacks: 40
To Hit: 0.5
EV Hit: 20
To Wound: 0.5
EV Wound: 10
Non-save: 0.166...
EV non-Save: 1.66...

As we can see, we can expect the Scorpions to do as well as the Banshees against Terminators w/ Storm Shields, half as well against Terminators w/o Storm Shields, and two thirds as well against Tactical Marines. Notice how these proportions relate directly to the saving throws that the target unit receives. Scorpions do ~20% better than Howling Banshees against Imperial Guardsmen.

They do 2/3 as well against Tactical Marines because, despite 3+ saving throws, they have 1/3 more attacks...

*Edit: I had the with Storm Shields and without Storm Shields reversed. I've corrected it.

"What are the arguements for using banshee's over scorpions?"

-Moot

I personally prefer Scorpians.

There seems to be more ork and guard players recently.

This is better for scorpians than banshees.

More attacks, better strength, better save all make scorpians better in my book.

Combine them with a doom/fortune farseer and unless your facing an army that can inflict loads of ap3 wounds each round then you've a squad that can murder most units.

I don't even bother giving them an exarch.

Incidentally, against Doomed Terminators w/Storm Shields, Howling Banshees are ~30% more effective.

Edit: Corrected another error. I shouldn't be so lazy with the copy-paste function.

Nurglitch wrote:Incidentally, against Doomed Terminators w/Storm Shields, Howling Banshees are ~30% more effective.

Edit: Corrected another error. I shouldn't be so lazy with the copy-paste function.

I forgot exactly what doom does again, does it improve Scorpions eficiency as well vs same squad type?

GG

Doom enables all units attacking the Doomed unit to re-roll wound rolls. It improves the ability of Scorpions to wound Terminators by 50%, but those gains are proportionate to the number of those wounds that will be negated by the Terminators Sv2+.

I think the choice of which unit to take is pretty dependant on the role you want it to fill. Scorpions in a wave serpent for flanking key back field targets, banshees in a wave serpent for a bit more head on elite infantry hunting and counter attack. When it comes to how effective they are against MEQ it seems like the differences shown in the math are virtually negligible.

It may seem like the differences are virtually negligible, but the 'math' can be misleading. I've used an expected value calculation, intersecting the potential results by the likelihood of those results coming to pass, to compare the expected average performance of Scorpions to Banshees. So it distracts from how an above average number of wounds caused by the Banshees is better than an above average number of wounds by Scorpions, since the target would likewise negate this above average set of results by their own above-average set of saves against the Scorpions.

Likewise the small number of expected casualties, and curiously fractional value, may distract from the fact that wounds are purely considered as positive integers in the game. You can't score 1.66... wounds in the game, for example. But you can see that the Banshees and the Scorpions can be expected to do equally well against Terminators with Storm Shields, and that the Banshees pull ahead against Terminators without Storm Shields and Tactical Marines by significant margins. They're 100% better against Terminators without Storm Shields and ~66% better against Tactical Marines. Doom makes the Banshees 30% better than Scorpions against the Terminators with Storm Shields.

These double and triple digit proportional increases in the expected casualty rate not 'virtually negligible', they are very significant. It says that the Banshees are much more effective against all varieties of Space Marines.

This does not mean you should take one or the other, however, particularly in a tournament setting. It simply means your Howling Banshees can engage Space Marines with better odds, and will give you greater utility if you use them to kill his units and your Scorpions to mop up units.

Against more numerous foe, consider the Banshee Exarch's Warshout. Being hit on 5+ due to enemy WS1, and having Counter-Assault will allow a unit of Banshees to absorb a charge quite nicely and to hold the unit for the Scorpions to move in and murder them.

My opinion is that you should take both, in the company of a Farseer for the Doom, and an Autarch for the reserve bonus.

Nurglitch wrote: My opinion is that you should take both, in the company of a Farseer for the Doom, and an Autarch for the reserve bonus.

You've got me convinced, that's the way I used to roll with Eldar in 3rd. But aren't we also forgetting that scorpions have a better armor save?

I guess looking at all combinations of in order, from best to worst =

2 units of Scorps ............BEST IMO
1 unit of scorps and 1 unit of banshees............... Can't really go wrong here either
2 units of banshees.....VS marines they are best, in all comers list not so much

GG