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People actually pay the cost for tankhammers? If they were a free upgrade maybe however you'd be better off loading up on bomb squigs. Those can really damage mc/gmc.

Anvildude wrote:
Are you factoring in Tankhammers and multiple rounds of combat? Or figuring a single, all-out fight?

At 15 points a hammer, I'd rather just get another tankbusta for another melta bomb than essentially giving another model +1 A, still I 1 but AP3 instead of AP1 and no armourbane.

As for multiple rounds of combat, assuming base to base combat and maybe even multiple rows of tankbustas, and with these numbers that's pretty safe to assume, we're looking at like 7 dead tankbustas, conservatively. (average 2 stomps, 3 models per blast template which is 3" d and 1" d model bases, so I'm even assuming the TB are totally encircling the WK.) If we're going with 15 models, that's like 2 wounds. Ork leadership at -5 (Snake eyes, 1 in 36), fail break is I roll off at -3 for total wipe or mob rule knocks it down 2 more models. Now I didn't subtract the WK's I 5 kills before the tankbustas I 1 attacks earlier, but that's probably two more here before you get to strike again. Now you got 5 tankbustas which is like <0.33... W.

If you go back earlier in my example and assume now you don't have a perfect circle around the WK and there is rows of tankbustas. You can double the number of stomp casualties, the totals now being 12 vs 7 including melee. Those three leftover models might not even survive their mob rule.

Shooting is like ~0.07 W per model so if you want to throw in a round of shooting. (Range vs assault range is not great.) The WK will probably have more rounds of shooting because of range and can hit hard targets with S D. This also doesn't factor the psyker buffs the WK can receive (Force multiplier.) and the orks don't have that capability at all.

195 + 50 for trukk, ram, nob, bp is only 45 points short of the WK and assuming perfect battlefield conditions (lol) you have a one turn speed bump and 3 wounds, but not able to engage until turn 2-3. (That's a lot of S D shooting.)

gungo wrote:
People actually pay the cost for tankhammers? If they were a free upgrade maybe however you'd be better off loading up on bomb squigs. Those can really damage mc/gmc.

Bomb squigs are good for first blood vs a transport or light vehicle. (And with Gloryhog can definitely affect how the other army plays the rest of the game.) But anything else the odds aren't really there. It's basically +30% accuracy, -6" range (or something I forget. E: Nailed It.), -1 AP, one use only, and that AP 4 vs AP 3 with MC and GMCs is huge, giving them their armour save and basically offsetting it's bonus. (Literally too: 0.66...*0.5*0.33...*0.66...=0.33...*0.5*0.66...*0.66...) (E: Didn't nail it. Thought it was hit on 3+ not 2+ for some reason. So it'll actually average out 0.018 more wounds per turn, or 1.8% more effective.)

Don't get me wrong, tankbustas are still one of the best options Orks have vs WKs, but that's mostly because of how bad the math is in comparison with Lootas/Flash Gitz/Mek Guns. This should just show how bad overall we are at it. It might literally be the most competitive strategy to jut ignore it the whole game. (I'm probably just going to keep throwing MANz at it because I play Orks dammit and if I see something shiny I want to krump it.) (BB MANz x*0.666...*0.833...*0.666...*0.666... and they get their 2+ save vs the S 6 AP 4 stomps which are 2-5 on the chart.)

 Rismonite wrote:
65 points of tankbustas vs 300ish points of wraithknight. Who should win?

The serious point is it is possible for 300 points of tankbustas to down a wraithknight in a turn and still have bodies to show for it, where as a wraithknight can't really beat 300 points of tankbustas in a turn.

With that said, the jetbikes helping him are going to mulch you up if you don't shoot those first.

I slammed two five men squads into a WK last week and was surprised to see they did only two wounds to the monster. He in return almost wiped them from the table in one turn. Having a unit of boys at hand to soak up the damage would have been nice, but then I would still have lost that round of combat.

With 300 points of tankbustas you will kill a wraightknight in two rounds of shooting or one round of combat. However that's a lot of tankbustas


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Plus it just looks so damn cool. All those bits sticking out of it and the size of it are incredible.

The size? It is not bigger then a normal dakkajet, is it?

You would need 30+ tankbustas to kill a WK in two turns of shooting. The WK is too mobile to be in shooting range for 2 turns without assault or return shooting casualties at least.

I think people miss the point.
There is really no efficient way to kill a wraithknight.
This is mainly because the wraithknight is one of the most point efficient units in game. It's not really overpowered more then the fact it's about 100pts undercosted.
However the other issue is that mc or gmc don't have nearly as much anti stuff as a vehicle.
If tankbustas had monster hunter it would be a different story however they don't and you are using an anti vehicle platform to kill a gmc. It's just not made for that even if it does an ok job of it.

As most players eluded to in this post by saying just tarpit it ignore it Orks don't have a good answer to any gmc really. We don't have any access to monster hunter, almost no access to Insta death weapons, no str d, and we rely solely on our questionable access to str 8+ ap2/3 wpns.

As I stated before I hope the new wazboom blast jet is a decent point efficient anti armour vehicle.
So far I've heard it's

Twinlinked str8 ap2 gets hot blast 36in range (I'm hoping this is 2x weapons and not a single small blast at bs2/3)
1x str4+1d6 ap1 36in range upgradeable to str8 ap2 large blast
And str6 ap4 assault 3
For 140pts

If this is really 3 str8 ap2 blasts and the supa shoota for 160ish points it would make for decent anti gmc platform if you fly two of them it should be able to handle a wraith knight. If it's only 2 str8 ap2 blasts it will be ok but still woefully short of what Orks needs.

gungo wrote:
I think people miss the point.
There is really no efficient way to kill a wraithknight.
This is mainly because the wraithknight is one of the most point efficient units in game. It's not really overpowered more then the fact it's about 100pts undercosted.
However the other issue is that mc or gmc don't have nearly as much anti stuff as a vehicle.
If tankbustas had monster hunter it would be a different story however they don't and you are using an anti vehicle platform to kill a gmc. It's just not made for that even if it does an ok job of it.

As most players eluded to in this post by saying just tarpit it ignore it Orks don't have a good answer to any gmc really. We don't have any access to monster hunter, almost no access to Insta death weapons, no str d, and we rely solely on our questionable access to str 8+ ap2/3 wpns.

As I stated before I hope the new wazboom blast jet is a decent point efficient anti armour vehicle.
So far I've heard it's

Twinlinked str8 ap2 gets hot blast 36in range (I'm hoping this is 2x weapons and not a single small blast at bs2/3)
1x str4+1d6 ap1 36in range upgradeable to str8 ap2 large blast
And str6 ap4 assault 3
For 140pts

If this is really 3 str8 ap2 blasts and the supa shoota for 160ish points it would make for decent anti gmc platform if you fly two of them it should be able to handle a wraith knight. If it's only 2 str8 ap2 blasts it will be ok but still woefully short of what Orks needs.

Stompa is the most efficient way to deal with a wraithknight. Give him the gaze of mork and a bursta cannon. Fire at him every turn and hide in cover. Try to get your opponent to assault you with the wraithknight. If it works, wraithknight is now I 1 and swings at the same time as the stompa. All it takes is a single str D hit and roll a 6 on the table and that sucker is dead.

Your and most people idea of efficient is wildly off.
A 770 base stompa or more accurately an 800+ Pt big Mek stompa is horribly inefficient.

The big Mek stompa still doesn't help as Stomps do absolutely nothing on gmc leaving you with a single bs2 str d range wpn with absolutely no way to reroll your to hit.

Your actual best chance is likely a claw stompa with its crazy amount of str d atks however it's horribly slow compared to the jump gmc wraithknight, still swings after the wraithknight and still horribly overcosted.

More than likely you are talking about the ITC point adjusted buzzgrob stompa at 500 pts (without the belly gun which is its best wpn) which is likely costed accurately however wildly inefficient compared to a wraithknight. Which you still can take 2 of compared to a big Mek stompa with gaze of mork and belly gun.

As stated there is no efficient way for an ork to match a wraithknight. Actually few armies can match the efficiency of that unit. (Grav space marines being the exception)

And seriously why would any eldar player charge a stompa in cover? You're trading range atks between each other and the wraithknight is likely trading 2 str d range atks at bs4 with possibly prescience or invis in cover compared to a single bs2 str d range atk? Have you played the big Mek stompa? The gaze of mork is luck based at best and rarely hits. The belly gun is the best wpn the big Mek stompa has because it's massive blast pretty much ignores the bs2.

gungo wrote:
Your and most people idea of efficient is wildly off.
A 770 base stompa or more accurately an 800+ Pt big Mek stompa is horribly inefficient.

The big Mek stompa still doesn't help as Stomps do absolutely nothing on gmc leaving you with a single bs2 str d range wpn with absolutely no way to reroll your to hit.

Your actual best chance is likely a claw stompa with its crazy amount of str d atks however it's horribly slow compared to the jump gmc wraithknight, still swings after the wraithknight and still horribly overcosted.

More than likely you are talking about the ITC point adjusted buzzgrob stompa at 500 pts (without the belly gun which is its best wpn) which is likely costed accurately however wildly inefficient compared to a wraithknight. Which you still can take 2 of compared to a big Mek stompa with gaze of mork and belly gun.

As stated there is no efficient way for an ork to match a wraithknight. Actually few armies can match the efficiency of that unit. (Grav space marines being the exception)

And seriously why would any eldar player charge a stompa in cover? You're trading range atks between each other and the wraithknight is likely trading 2 str d range atks at bs4 with possibly prescience or invis in cover compared to a single bs2 str d range atk? Have you played the big Mek stompa? The gaze of mork is luck based at best and rarely hits. The belly gun is the best wpn the big Mek stompa has because it's massive blast pretty much ignores the bs2.

I have played it numerous times. Personally the codex stompa is useless. Its over cost. You can build it cheaper in the kustom stompa builder. Since FW can decide on a point cost for the big mek stompa for Buzzgob, I've stopped using it. I just use a kustom stompa now. Also I'm not talking about anything with ITC. Just the base example what the orks have that can take on a wraithknight.

In the last ITC event I was at, I used a Klawstompa built in the Kustom Stompa maker. He was allowed by the TO. I played an eldar guy with a wraithknight. Cornered his knight in the corner of the table and gave him the choice. Either assault me in cover or be assaulted. He had D cannons on him, but thanks to ITC rules they are not as good as CC str D. Also I had power fields and mega-force field on as well. He only had 3 units that could actually hurt me at range. He assaulted me and took his chances. He lost. Out of my 14 attacks, I made 8 and 3 of them were 6's on the D table.

You really can't corner a jump gmc that ignores all intervening terrain and models. At best he couldn't clear your charge range even when you only can move 6 in through cover/difficult terrain.the av12 d6 Power fields on the full priced 5th Ed rules kustom stompa are not regenable and easily stripped as long as you are playing it correctly and not using the mff on the power fields. Which leaves you with your hull points and your mff and any repair rolls you stacked into it.

However the unit you just described is also well over 800pts and still horribly inefficient. Kustom klaw stompa with belly gun, gaze of mork, big Mek with mff. congratz your stompa that costs nearly 3x the cost of a wraithknight killed it. That's not what I was saying. Efficiency does not mean unkillable. While the str d range wrsithknight is the most useful version if you compare the melee str d, invul shield version vs the kustom klaw stompa the klaw stompa will likely still die to the higher int str d atks as long as the power fields have been stripped at some point. This is still at slightly over 1/3 the cost you just mentioned for the klaw stompa.

KMK is one thing but supposedly the new flier can mount two tellyporta sponsons. I pray to gork is 2x the template not just TL. Str 8 AP2 ID on a 6 feels sweet. By that time I'd pay for the smasha cannon just to giggle at the thought of it picking a wk up and tossing it about.

I couldn't help but notice the Dakkadakka wiki article on Ork tactica is extremely outdated. I have begun compiling a new one. My HQ analysis is complete, so please feel free to take a look. Any questions, comments, or suggestions should probably just be PM'd to me or posted in the relevant article discussion thread to avoid clogging up this thread.

7th Ed Ork Competitive Analysis

Article Discussion

gungo wrote:
You really can't corner a jump gmc that ignores all intervening terrain and models. At best he couldn't clear your charge range even when you only can move 6 in through cover/difficult terrain.the av12 d6 Power fields on the full priced 5th Ed rules kustom stompa are not regenable and easily stripped as long as you are playing it correctly and not using the mff on the power fields. Which leaves you with your hull points and your mff and any repair rolls you stacked into it.

However the unit you just described is also well over 800pts and still horribly inefficient. Kustom klaw stompa with belly gun, gaze of mork, big Mek with mff. congratz your stompa that costs nearly 3x the cost of a wraithknight killed it. That's not what I was saying. Efficiency does not mean unkillable. While the str d range wrsithknight is the most useful version if you compare the melee str d, invul shield version vs the kustom klaw stompa the klaw stompa will likely still die to the higher int str d atks as long as the power fields have been stripped at some point. This is still at slightly over 1/3 the cost you just mentioned for the klaw stompa.

Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.

 Glitcha wrote:
Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.

The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?

So, What's up with a new flyer? I've got a ww2 plane for like 5$ ready to be orkified.

 koooaei wrote:
So, What's up with a new flyer? I've got a ww2 plane for like 5$ ready to be orkified.

I am also eagerly awaiting details. I dont imagine it will save our beloved armies, but I hope it will bring something interesting.

Also what do you guys think about allying in a renegade knight? Its allies of convenience which is perfectly fine for us. It has some interesting options and I am thinking of taking one over Buzzgobs stompa. Anyone here have any plans on using it and if so how do you think it would best compliment the ork army? I am thinking dual gatling cannons to mow down anything and everything.

Compared to the stompa it has the advantage of having far superior shooting ability, but thats really about it. It is far squishier and cannot be repaired by your orks. With two gatling cannons it clocks in at 435 points compared to the base 400 points of the big mek stompa.

tag8833 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.

The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?

The Clawstompa's rules get more vague every day. First the number of attacks are not clear at all. Now the chargerange is debatable as well; 2d6x2 or 12" fixed charg, it's a difference.

Was having a go with the Painmob recently in some friendly games.
Since you have to take a Nobz mob anyway, I decided to go for a unit of 9, all in armour with Big Choppas, one Powerklaw (not on the Bossnob), and stuck them in a trukk with the Painboy.
It was surprisingly durable and effective. Still pricey, but not as bad as the more usual Nob builds. And the formation rule was quite nice.
Ran the Boyz as typical trukk boyz alongside them.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.

The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?

The Clawstompa's rules get more vague every day. First the number of attacks are not clear at all. Now the chargerange is debatable as well; 2d6x2 or 12" fixed charg, it's a difference.

As far as I know, this page has the current rules for the Supercharger and the Klawfrenzy special rules: https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0397/82/1430901836725.png

As you can see they aren't really compatible with modern 40K, and unless I'm missing something Forgeworld has never FAQ'd them to bring them up to date.

I've got a tourney coming up in June that allows me to use a Kustom Stompa so I'm going to run a Klaw Stompa. To avoid confusion i won't give it the Supercharger, and plan to ignore the 3rd bullet on the Klawfrenzy rule. Also, per the rules, I will treat it as having 7 Attacks.

I think the Attacks confusion is a result of not understanding where the 3 Attack bonus comes from for being a Klaw Stompa. Normally if you have 2 CCW, you get a bonus 1 Attack. For a pair of Titan Close Combat Weapons you get a bonus of 3 attacks instead of 1. Those two things don't stack, though i see how someone could make that mistake.

I run tournaments, and am looked to as a source of rules clarity, and to set the tone when it comes to rules, so I can't use janky rules interpretations to gain personal power for my army. 7 Strength D attacks plus Stomp is enough for me coming off a 480 point unit with Objective Secured that hides my warlord. (350 point stompa + 50 for 2 TCCW + 35 points for Gretchin + 45 Poitns for Big Mek w/ DFK).

That stompa looks cool, but it's rules seem so janky I would feel it would put people off of I brought it In a game.

So with the leaks of the new Death From the Skies book, do any of the formations (or aerial wing formations) change things for Ork lists, particularly Speed Freaks? Namely do flyers make a comeback now for Greenskins?

So in light of the new 40k FAQ draft GW posted on their FB page, taking tankhammers in a tankbuster squad will be useful.

Units can only use 1 grenade in the assault phase.

So 5 tankbustas = 1 model may make 1 grenade attack.

Regarding the new flyer formations: Yes.

The two flyer formation wings are:

Ork Skwadron
1- dakkajet wing
1-burna bomber wing
1- Blitz bomba wing
Benefit 1: pick one wing from this formation, all flyers in it get +1 BS, +1 agility, and Skilled rider
Benefit2: If all flyer wings are in attack pattern, and each is within 24" of each other can move flat out and shoot

Kustom Wazbom
1 Wasbom blastjet
3 othe flyers of any type
Benefit1: 3+ I save to wing lead and all flyers if in fortitude attack pattern (normally a 4+I save).

Considering fortitude pattern also gives IWND and interceptor

The flyers are pretty powerful. You can get dakkajets which are BS4 versus some targets in the first one, the second one is really hard to kill for flyers. 3++ and IWND on all four flyers as long as they stay in formation.

The preview of GW's new FAQs might change things drastically for Tankbustas.

Only 1 grenade can be used in combat per unit (just like shooting).

This will really hurt them in combat, and might see the tank hammer getting more use.

I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two S8 power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.

 slip wrote:
I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.

This makes me very sad. Tankbustas used to be our only real hope against SHVs. Now we have nothing. Thanks GW.

Grav weapons hitting majority save is good for megaboss + mekgunz!

Uhh, I would be all for the Tankhammer if it was AP2. Alas, it is not.

Meganobz might be the Go-to choice now for Elites.

I can only hope a new Codex fixes things right up.
BUT at least the Kustom Force Field works on Explodes!! That's something, right? Right?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 slip wrote:
I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.

This makes me very sad. Tankbustas used to be our only real hope against SHVs. Now we have nothing. Thanks GW.

Try a Bullyboyz MANz Missile. They strike simultaneously with stomps and get their save vs anything but a 6 on the stomp table. 20 WS 5 S 9 AP 2 attacks should do the trick. Fearless prevents LD checks and Mob rule.

E: FWIW i think tankbustas are still useful, but MSU tactics are more important than ever for them.

My Tankbustas just became a lot less useful. Meltabombs were the reason to take them, the rokkits were just a bonus.

You would still get +1 attack on the charge with a Tankhammer, right? So 3 attacks with the Tankhammer on the charge? Or is that Grot math? (did I forget a special rule?)

Just sucks how they have to be 30 points more...possibly more if you have the Power Klaw...

Hoping that ruling is overturned

 Cleatus wrote:
My Tankbustas just became a lot less useful. Meltabombs were the reason to take them, the rokkits were just a bonus.

You would still get +1 attack on the charge with a Tankhammer, right? So 3 attacks with the Tankhammer on the charge? Or is that Grot math? (did I forget a special rule?)

They would still get +1 A on the charge, I was just going off base profile.

They are still extremely effective shooting AV12 or less vehicles and will ID MEQs. Trukks give them the opportunity to target side and rear armour.

But yeah, forget about putting them in CC now.

I just typed up the Tankbusta portion of my ork tactica article last night too. Gotta rewrite that now. /sigh


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Killsaws are probably a thing now.