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So after reading a post by Gwar! I started reanalyzing the Leaping biomorph for Tyranids.

Since it does not make the unit beasts, they can only assault 1-6 inches through cover (as per infantry rules).
I missed that, but it did not seem to change TOO much.

Then I started nit-picking more.

Does Fast Charge of 12" even do anything anymore? Or is it another legacy rule that is lost?

By RAW does Leaping only let models engage if within 3" of another engaged model?

I would say that since fast charge is defined in the tyranid codex than codex trumps rulebook.

This means you take any part of the rule as defined by the codex. So 12 inch charge and 3" to make full attacks.

Any other rules, such as assaulting through cover would have to come from the BRB as they are not defined in the leaping entry.

Leaping does not define Fast Charge 12" though, that is most of my issue.

I see what your saying... This is like the Tau Marker Light Test where something was removed from the rule book and possibly broke a skill.... I would assume that by fast charge that the codex meant assault. My basis for this is that the codex specifically states "...though they do not become beasts." ('nid 'dex pg 33) This specific statement (IMO) insinuates that leaping gives those figures "beast-like" abilities without the problems associated with beasts (cannot change floors in ruins). Again, thats all IMO

Agreed on the assumptions. . . thus my taking this long to actualy bring it up. I was introduced in 4e.

That said, as I read the rules now, it is simply a really costly bonus to the 2" range for models in assault range changing to 3".

I get the RAI is charging = 12 instead of 6, but where is there RAW?

I stopped buying this thanks to Gwar! and I cannot fault his reasoning even if it was not related. ^^

Neither the 3rd edition or 4th edition rulebooks define a term "Fast Charge", either, but to my knowledge none of the FAQ's from that era chose to address the statement. One could conclude from that statement that 'a 12" Fast Charge' would mean 'a 12", fast, Charge'.

If only an elite team of editing Ninja (note that 'Ninja editors' would be ambiguous ) would descend upon the books at Games Workshop...

Page 54 of the BRB.

Beasts and Cavalry have a 12" charge, and when assaulting through cover they double the highest roll.

Unless you're going by the "codex trumps rulebook" rule which ALWAYS grants leaping Tyranids a 12" charge (regardless of terrain) then the next thing is to allow them the beast charge. Saying that they lose Leaping on account of cover (even though you paid for it and there are rules for it) is like saying that guardsmen lose grenades on account of cover (even though you paid for it and there are rules for it).

Ok, your analogy is a little flawed Broken as guardsmen dont lose grenades because of cover (as far as I know, assault grenades still prevent the assaulting figures from being dropped to I1 and guardsmen can still chuck grenades 6" should they have those grenade, but models would still get cover), but movement is hindered by moving through cover. I dont see where they are always granted 12" assaults though as assaulting through cover has specific rules.

Dont get me wrong, I think leaping still works considering that Solkan stated that the 3rd and 4th editions dont have the term fast charge and I believe the latest 'nid 'dex is 3rd edition IIRC and that the 'nid dex states that they get the abilitiy and do not become beasts (loosely paraphrased of course), I'm just not sure that it carries over to assaulting through cover, at least that I can find.

I think they would still get their 12 inch charge when not going through cover.

However since fast charge isn't a defined term, they would have to follow the normal rules for assaulting through cover.

Sure, it seems like they should charge 12", but why?

RAI no doubt they _should_, but other than "I think it works that way" I cannot find out why it _does_.

As for up to 12" through cover? No.
Only beasts/calvary can do that without special rules, and Leaping explicitly denies that.

Because in the leaping entry in the tyranid codex it says they get a "fast charge of 12inches"

Fast charge doesn't need to be defined in the BRB because its defined in the tyranid codex by the amount of inches they can move.

Timmah wrote:Because in the leaping entry in the tyranid codex it says they get a "fast charge of 12inches"

Fast charge doesn't need to be defined in the BRB because its defined in the tyranid codex by the amount of inches they can move.

It is not defined anywhere. Or in fact even suggested what the meaning is.

It is _perhaps_ implied that they can assault 12" (but only because it says "though they do not become Beasts"), but assuredly not move 12".

Do not get me wrong. . . Tyranids are my only army. And I rather like(d) Leaping. I just want to make sure I am not missing something.

Sure, they get a 12" charge..... in open terrain.

However, as they are not Beasts (Leaping specifically mentions this does not make them Beasts, in fact) or cavalry, nothing grants them the 2d6 take the highest and double it when assaulting into difficult terrain.

Should they have it? Yes, IMO they should, and I'll give it to my opponents as I believe it to be fair and proper. But do they have it by the rules? No, they don't. Just another glitch from the 5th ed changeover that GW has not seen fit to correct in writing.

kirsanth wrote:

Timmah wrote:Because in the leaping entry in the tyranid codex it says they get a "fast charge of 12inches"

Fast charge doesn't need to be defined in the BRB because its defined in the tyranid codex by the amount of inches they can move.

It is not defined anywhere. Or in fact even suggested what the meaning is.

It is _perhaps_ implied that they can assault 12" (but only because it says "though they do not become Beasts"), but assuredly not move 12".

Do not get me wrong. . . Tyranids are my only army. And I rather like(d) Leaping. I just want to make sure I am not missing something.

I guess the question would be:

Are charge and assault interchangable. You would need to prove that they are in order for this to work.
I guess I would have to check the exact wording on the leaping entry to make sure I am talking correctly about this.

Here's an odd thought: How about taking into account the fact that Tyranids ignore terrain features that aren't impassable terrain for the purposes of movement...


It's pretty clear in the army special rules, and spelled out quite expertly, to boot...

"All tyranids have the Move Through Cover special rule..." Codex: Tyranids p.28



Is this really an issue?

Dronze wrote:Here's an odd thought: How about taking into account the fact that Tyranids ignore terrain features that aren't impassable terrain for the purposes of movement...


It's pretty clear in the army special rules, and spelled out quite expertly, to boot...

"All tyranids have the Move Through Cover special rule..." Codex: Tyranids p.28



Is this really an issue?

Yes, this is really an issue. All move through cover does is allow units to roll an extra d6 and then pick the highest diewhen moving through difficult terrain. This just means that the unit gets to roll 3d6 and then pick one die that is has rolled the highest number. Maybe if you would read your BRB (BRB Pg 75) you would know that it does not mean that units with move through cover do not get to ignore difficult terrain.

Edit: Changed 2d6 to 3d6 because as I misread a previous post
Edit 2: added page number for Move through Cover for Dronze

s2ua7 wrote:

Yes, this is really an issue. All move through cover does is allow units to roll an extra d6 and then pick the highest diewhen moving through difficult terrain. This just means that the unit gets to roll 2d6 and then pick one die that is has rolled the highest number. Maybe if you would read your BRB you would know that it does not mean that units with move through cover do not get to ignore difficult terrain.

Edit: Changed 3d6 to 2d6 because I forgot that only beast and cavalry get the 3d6 when going through cover. Thanks Don

Moving through difficult terrain is already 2d6 and pick highest (BRB p14). Assaulting doesn't change that fact (BRB p36). And Move Through Cover grants an extra dice to roll, making it 3d6. The only thing Beasts & Cavalry get 3d6 instead of the regular 2d6 is in Fall Back moves. Beasts & Cavalry do not automatically get the Move Through Cover rule, they do get Fleet though.

I play leaping the same as the Charge Beasts get, but without changing their type, so they can still change floors in ruins, deepstrike in planetstrike, but don't get Fleet.

The Leaping bio-morph on the top of page 33 Tyranid Codex clearly states all of this.

Redemption, I misread Don's post then, thats my bad.

Edit: Polyphemus, where does it clearly state what a fast charge is? Thats what is at discussion here it states:

"Leaping creatures gain a Fast Charge of 12" though they do not become Beasts. A creature with Leaping may make its full attacks when within 3" of a friendly model in base contact rather than the usual 3."

Ok, so we know that leaping provides:

1. A Fast Charge of 12" and does not make the figure a beast.
2. Can make full attacks when within 3" of BTB figures.

What we do not know:
1. What Fast Charge is

I agree with most here that Fast Charge is refrence to an assault of 12" as beasts move like infantry (6"), but assault like beasts and both are impeaded by difficult terrain.

The fast charge is an assault move that you can make up to 12". The confusion arises from the fact that in 4th edition, when this codex was current, the assault phase had you declaring charges. Now in 5th you declare assaults. But they're still the same thing. Consistency is not GW's strong point. We have a rule now called Furious Charge that gives a bonus when you assault. The rule used to be called Furious Assault and gave a bonus when you charged.....

s2ua7 wrote:Redemption, I misread Don's post then, thats my bad.

Edit: Polyphemus, where does it clearly state what a fast charge is? Thats what is at discussion here it states:

"Leaping creatures gain a Fast Charge of 12" though they do not become Beasts. A creature with Leaping may make its full attacks when within 3" of a friendly model in base contact rather than the usual 3."

Ok, so we know that leaping provides:

1. A Fast Charge of 12" and does not make the figure a beast.
2. Can make full attacks when within 3" of BTB figures.

What we do not know:
1. What Fast Charge is

I agree with most here that Fast Charge is refrence to an assault of 12" as beasts move like infantry (6"), but assault like beasts and both are impeaded by difficult terrain.

Mostly correct. . . They do not actually assault like Beasts, perhaps as far as beasts, but not like. (Tyranid) Beasts roll 3d6 and multiply the the highest by two when assaulting through cover. Tyranids with Leaping roll 3d6 and choose one when assaulting through cover.

That was what made me start looking harder at the rest of Leaping - I had never caught that the x2 is lacking.

Arschbombe wrote:The fast charge is an assault move that you can make up to 12". The confusion arises from the fact that in 4th edition, when this codex was current, the assault phase had you declaring charges. Now in 5th you declare assaults. But they're still the same thing. Consistency is not GW's strong point. We have a rule now called Furious Charge that gives a bonus when you assault. The rule used to be called Furious Assault and gave a bonus when you charged.....

That is an obvious assumption. And one I have always made. What I am wondering is, why is it valid?

Then technically you do not get your 12 inch charge. Just a problem with old codex / new rules. Unless GW errataed it, which I doubt.

My thoughts too.
I have stopped paying for that recently.

And 5e killed the Hormagaunt.
^^

If you don't get the cavalry cover charge, then you automatically get the 12" charge because the Tyranid codex SAYS you get a 12" charge (without saying what circumstances you DON'T get a 12" charge in) and codex trumps rulebook.

So, either they roll difficult and multiply like cavalry, or they don't roll at all. Pick one or provide logic.

Broken Loose wrote:If you don't get the cavalry cover charge, then you automatically get the 12" charge because the Tyranid codex SAYS you get a 12" charge (without saying what circumstances you DON'T get a 12" charge in) and codex trumps rulebook.

So, either they roll difficult and multiply like cavalry, or they don't roll at all. Pick one or provide logic.

You are now basing your entire argument on the idea that "the rules don't say I can't" and I wish you luck with that.

Sorry Broken, but your argument is, well, broken. Primarily because there is nothing in the Nid codex detailing how the leaping charge interacts with difficult terrain. Sure, they get a 12" charge. Then they try to charge into difficult terrain. The charge rules in the Nid codex don't cover that, so you have to default to the main rules, roll for difficult terrain and only use the highest single die not doubled for how far they can charge. Silly RAW, but RAW nonetheless.

I see where kirsanth is heading with this. Pg. 33 of the nid dex says leaping gives a model a Fast Charge of 12" Considering it does not tell you when to use this fast charge rule it is worthless when taken as RAW. Much like a lot of DH rules refrencing things that don't exist.

So a nidin 5th edition that has leaping will have the ability to throw its attacks in from three inches away and nothing more. Of course this can be cleared up before heading to a tournament by speaking with the TO. Then even if you play a RAW stickler you have the permission of the TO to play it the way it commonly interpreted.

AdeptArtificer wrote:I see where kirsanth is heading with this. Pg. 33 of the nid dex says leaping gives a model a Fast Charge of 12" Considering it does not tell you when to use this fast charge rule it is worthless when taken as RAW. Much like a lot of DH rules refrencing things that don't exist.

So a nidin 5th edition that has leaping will have the ability to throw its attacks in from three inches away and nothing more. Of course this can be cleared up before heading to a tournament by speaking with the TO. Then even if you play a RAW stickler you have the permission of the TO to play it the way it commonly interpreted.

Which would still anger some people seeing as the TO is basically playing house rules but whacha going to do.
But yea, seeing as we don't have anything called a charge anymore, until its Errataed your stuck with your 6" assault.

Timmah wrote:But yea, seeing as we don't have anything called a charge anymore, until its Errataed your stuck with your 6" assault.

That's just slowed. A charge is an assault. The beast rules include similar verbage for a fast assault that allows you to charge 12".

But there is no such thing as a charge anymore. I realize you and your gaming group may play it differently.

However in a Rules forum I believe we should stick to the actual RAW when discussing rules. (hint: theres a proposed rules forum for house rules and such)

And per actual RAW charge =! assault.