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Gwar! wrote:5e Killed the Hormagaunt for a lot of other different reasons

Well, to be fair, 4rth edition started digging the grave: Genestealers, no synapse mutants, mono flyrants, fragile/expensive winged warriors, and otherwise lack of strong fast synapse. Fith Edition was just some GW employee's temper-tantrum with Nids. Nerf to guants/hormies due to fearless wounds in CC. Nerf to venom cannons due to OMFH vehicles. Nerf to rending. Nerf to MC cover. Nerf to consolidation. Nerf to hiding. Nerf to rending and wound consolidation. Nerf to Biovores and KP (nerf Biovores...was that REALLY nessessary).

wyomingfox wrote:Well, to be fair, 4rth edition started digging the grave: Genestealers, no synapse mutants, mono flyrants, fragile/expensive winged warriors, and otherwise lack of strong fast synapse. Fith Edition was just some GW employee's temper-tantrum with Nids. Nerf to guants/hormies due to fearless wounds in CC. Nerf to venom cannons due to OMFH vehicles. Nerf to rending. Nerf to MC cover. Nerf to consolidation. Nerf to hiding. Nerf to rending and wound consolidation. Nerf to Biovores and KP (nerf Biovores...was that REALLY nessessary).

And no Carnifexes holding objectives.

But Lictors and Spore Mines can contest objectives!

I had both do that for different objectives in one game letting me win by holding the third objective with gaunts.

Good times.

You have to target a unit with Biovores, right? You cannot just target the objective?

FoolWhip wrote:You have to target a unit with Biovores, right? You cannot just target the objective?

No, you have to target a unit.

Gwar! wrote:

FoolWhip wrote:You have to target a unit with Biovores, right? You cannot just target the objective?

No, you have to target a unit.

unless your a mad person thats take them as fast attack ... or should that be madder?

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

FoolWhip wrote:You have to target a unit with Biovores, right? You cannot just target the objective?

No, you have to target a unit.

unless your a mad person thats take them as fast attack ... or should that be madder?

I would go with Madderist. Unless it is Apoc, then you take 1 Spore Mine for each other unit in the army and Deep Strike them all Turn 2

1000 points in spore mines is fun.

Takes too long to resolve, but really fun.

(especially with Meiotic Spores)

Reading through this thread does bring up one question (well one more question).

How and why do we change the definition of rules terms, IE at one time the BRB used charge and assault interchangeably but now uses assault. However, if older rules in a codex still use both terms why do we not still use both those terms to mean the same thing?

Its not that the BRB has now told us that charge means anything at all, it just quits using the term. But since we know from previous usage that GW considers the terms to have the same meaning....

Im not arguing that if there is a rule change we shouldnt acknowledge and follow the rule change. What Im asking is why do we assume a rules change when its only verbage change?


If at one time we knew that assault and charge have the same meaning in GWspeak, why would we now think that they do not?




The eldar banshee rules and some of the tyranid biomorphs are different in that we know exactly how they work, they just dont have any effect under the current rules. But charge and assault involves a matter of word definitions, which really doesnt change in the same way.



Sliggoth

Rules change between editions. Live with it.

But that in and of itself is the point ..... Im not talking about rules that change, Im talking about the language of GW speak.


There is nothing in 5th edition that indicates that charge and assault are not the same thing. They used the terms charge and assault interchangeably at one time, now in 5th they do not. That would all be well and good except that the term charge is still used in some other rules. That is the problem.

We have nothing in 5th edition telling us that charge has changed, so why do we somehow make an assumption that it no longer means the same as assault?

Thats the question. Not a rules change at all. It is now a lack of a term in the BRB that is still used elsewhere.


At one point the BRB used assault and charge as meaning the same thing. We had rules in other books that used the term charge and we were happy with that. All was good.

Now the BRB no longer uses the term charge, but other books still use the term. We used to know what charge meant, we applied those rules in keeping with the charge/ assault rules. Now suddenly we are struck with amnesia and no longer can apply the assault rules to leaping or the necron gaze?



Its not a rules change per se. We still have the rules, we just do not RIGHT NOW have a definition for the words in the BRB.


Im arguing that since we still have the term charge in the tyranid rules we should still apply the assault rules to charge. And in the necron book.

Because we still do know that charge = assault in the GW version of the language.

Think this might be worth a new thread actually.



Sliggoth

I think it is generally played with the legacy in mind (see Ghazgull's Waaagh! for Fleet movement).

I am not certain that is correct, as this puts undue pressure on players that have not played the previous/alternate versions.

In this case, as I mentioned earlier, the issue is not really a "Charge = Assault" issue. To rephrase my concern - "Fast Assault of 12" would not really help.

The rule itself - Fast Charge - is not defined. Capitalization (also) in it makes it rather obvious that they are refering to a specific rule, not the general function of charging/assaulting. Even if that was the intent.

kirsanth wrote:I think it is generally played with the legacy in mind (see Ghazgull's Waaagh! for Fleet movement).

I am not certain that is correct, as this puts undue pressure on players that have not played the previous/alternate versions.

In this case, as I mentioned earlier, the issue is not really a "Charge = Assault" issue. To rephrase my concern - "Fast Assault of 12" would not really help.

The rule itself - Fast Charge - is not defined. Capitalization (also) in it makes it rather obvious that they are refering to a specific rule, not the general function of charging/assaulting. Even if that was the intent.

Actually, to clarify, (and I am mainly a lurker/CSM player, but) on pg 54 of the BRB it does state "an especially fast assault to charge their enemies. When assaulting they move up to 12"." So I would say could we not argue that they now interchangeably use assault/charge? And that a Fast Charge is just like a Fast Assault to charge their enemies, or when assaulting they move 12"?

Fluff != Rules.

Learn to differentiate.

"an especially fast assault to charge their enemies." = Fluff
When assaulting they move up to 12"." = Rules.

Poor Editing + Lack of Play Testing + Refusal to Invest Time and Effort into a Comprehensive FAQ when a new edition comes out = Conflict.

Of course according to GW, those of us who wish for better rule making are a minority and are comprised solely of power gaming Trolles who lack the common civility to discuss rules beyond the illogical quagmire that is RAW -- a discource in abject stupidity where leaping does not provide a 12" assualt movement, where Flyrants are not MC, and where Tyrant Guards are retinues even though the Tyrant is also stated to be an upgrade character in the same FAQ language.

Nevertheless. This is 5th edition. Why is anyone wanting to play hormies?