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Deriving the essential question from Dash O Pepper's thread concerning prize support:

1. Is it a reasonable expectation to want to know what prize support is at a tournament before going?
2. (my add as I believe the intent was to ask this as well) What are reasonable expectations of prize support at local RTTs? Larger GT style events?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
opening with Janthkin's post which was caught up at the end of the thread:

Just for reference:

The largest single prize I've ever seen is for the winner of the Adepticon Gladiator. This year, it was a FW Reaver Titan (currently about $650). Given Adepticon's relationship w/GW, I doubt they had to pay retail for it. The Gladiator runs 120 people @ $25 each, plus everyone has an Adepticon badge (separate fee, to help cover the space).

The team tournament actually has better prize support (360 people @ $30/each will do that), but distribution across 4-member teams brings each individual's "take" down.

The Gladiator is the only Adepticon event that pre-announces the grand prize.

Dash - you admit to having no knowledge of the costs of running a tournament. So let's ditch that part of the conversation, except as to note that they are much higher than you realize.

Your first problem seems to be one of distribution - given a specific prize "budget," who should it go to? You would like limited distribution to the select few; the organizers have chosen a wider distribution.

I think the organizers' viewpoint is this - conventions do not thrive on prizes given to the few. As it is their convention, they are perfectly entitled to that viewpoint. If you disagree, you need not attend.

Your second problem is one of disclosure. You would like full disclosure; the organizers do not wish to provide you with full disclosure. Understand that tournament organizers often don't have full knowledge of prize support until much closer to the event - sponsors may change, costs may change, some prize support may be contingent upon attendance (a permanently fluid number). If the cost/benefit analysis doesn't work for you without more data, and you can't obtain that data, then walk away.



General point: 40k tournaments are not long enough for a true swiss system to play out - whether you are first or second or third tells you nothing about your relative success vs. the other top 3 finishers; maybe they faced a harder opponent in round 1 than you did, and saved you from having to encounter him in round 2. If you want poker-like payouts, play poker, where the top finishers at least face each other in elimination-style play.

Thanks Frazzled! The other thread was out of control, and those are the two questions I really want to talk about anyway.

*EDIT* And I realize that full disclosure is never possible given that prizes are usually based on how many people show up. I had posted because my inquiry about what prizes might look like got "We don't disclose." I'm concerned about spending $35 on something when I have no idea what I'm getting into, so....thus Frazzled's new thread!

Now this is a thread with no BS hidden agendas.

1. I think it is perfectly reasonable to want to know. You DO want to know what the potential is. You dont want to roll up and pay $25 for entry and find out first place is a regiment box set of your choice.

2. I think 75% of the AFTER expenses funds should be divided, obviously more for best overall and slightly less for the other awards.

Personally a plaque is just fine for me. I would still pay up to $50 to get in a tourney if there were a lot of awards but they were just plaques.

I've been in three Indy GT's, another three GT style events, and a ton of RTT's in the past year and I've never known what the prize support was going into the tournament, with the exception of 'Ard Boys.

I've also never had an issue with what the prize support was revealed to be for the winners. However in larger GT tournaments I have had issues with prizes only being awarded to the winner in each catagory while other GT's give prizes to the top 3 finishers in each catagory.

asugradinwa wrote:I've been in three Indy GT's, another three GT style events, and a ton of RTT's in the past year and I've never known what the prize support was going into the tournament, with the exception of 'Ard Boys.

I've also never had an issue with what the prize support was revealed to be for the winners. However in larger GT tournaments I have had issues with prizes only being awarded to the winner in each catagory while other GT's give prizes to the top 3 finishers in each catagory.

Can you elaborate a bit?

Out of all those events, was there a trend towards one way or the other? Top in each category or multiple awards in each category?

PanamaG wrote:Now this is a thread with no BS hidden agendas.

1. I think it is perfectly reasonable to want to know. You DO want to know what the potential is. You dont want to roll up and pay $25 for entry and find out first place is a regiment box set of your choice.

2. I think 75% of the AFTER expenses funds should be divided, obviously more for best overall and slightly less for the other awards.

Personally a plaque is just fine for me. I would still pay up to $50 to get in a tourney if there were a lot of awards but they were just plaques.

1. I agree with PG's #1 above. Players, should have as much information as possible at the time. However when reality calls even the TO abides, and can only give info they have. If its still developing, tied to tourney (for example 10% of proceeds), or such then say that.

2. Me personally, a trophy/plaque is of substantially higher value to me than items. Others have different needs, but I need something to keep up with the ten awards my kids seem to get daily for this or that ("solving the value of pi, with congratulatory thank you letter from NASA, I'll add it to the fridge wall O success."

Edit:

*EDIT* And I realize that full disclosure is never possible given that prizes are usually based on how many people show up. I had posted because my inquiry about what prizes might look like got "We don't disclose." I'm concerned about spending $35 on something when I have no idea what I'm getting into, so....thus Frazzled's new thread!

I can definitely understand that. I'm used to RTTs only and this is at the higher end of that.

To be honest knowing how much a lot of people have to go thru to get the prize support in the first place I think it is to much to ask for what the prize support will be more than a week in advance if even then.

As for the second part at the RTT level just giving it out to the top 4 spots is just fine and appropriate. But in a GT environment where it costs far more to run and is much more based on turnout I think it's business smart to spread the prizes around. It encourages more people to come and grows the tournament. Once it gets big enough the prizes get larger for all the spots already recieving prizes but the main thing is that the tournament grows and that it'll be back year after year.

I can't really think of any other competitive event where the prize support is not known upfront. I don't understand why 40k should be any different.

Timmah wrote:I can't really think of any other competitive event where the prize support is not known upfront. I don't understand why 40k should be any different.

Are you refering to corporate or independently run events. Corporate events typically have announced support as it comes from the corporate coffers. Independent events offer prizes from entry fees and sponsorship, both of which do not provide concrete numbers with which the organizers can rely on.

In the 6 GT like events (30+ players, entry fee of $40+, 5 game tournaments) there were prizes for major catagories such as Best Overall, Best General, Best Painting, Players Choice, and Best Sportsman.

In all but one of these events prizes were also given out to the 2nd and 3rd place finishers in each catagory. While the 1st place player may get something like a Space Marine Strike force, the 2nd player may get a battleforce, while the 3rd gets something like an Ork Battlewagon.

In the one tournament that did not give out prizes to 2nd & 3rd they gave out some pretty good prizes to the 1st place players, such as a realm of battle board.

I come from a magic the gathering background tbh.

If independent retailers run events they let you know prize support based on number of entrants.

Like 30 entrants = $300 first prize ect
Less than that and prizes will be shown.

So independants still at least have some clarity in what they are offering.

I remember one event where like 23 players all kicked in for some kids entry fee so he could play and we would have enough to play for the large prize.

Frazzled wrote:2. Me personally, a trophy/plaque is of substantially higher value to me than items. Others have different needs, but I need something to keep up with the ten awards my kids seem to get daily for this or that ("solving the value of pi, with congratulatory thank you letter from NASA, I'll add it to the fridge wall O success."

Back when Privateer Press' tournament packs had the faction coins, I was happily paying $20-$25CDN to play in a tournaments that had nothing other than the faction coins as prize support. (Granted, the Tournament Packs at the time cost the stores running events a pretty penny - IIRC, $75USD, so they needed at least 10 players to make it worthwhile as they were also providing proper food for the players.)

Timmah wrote:I can't really think of any other competitive event where the prize support is not known upfront. I don't understand why 40k should be any different.

Again this is only from my limited knowledge having worked or run some RTTs back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth and you had to fight them off with whippie sticks (sigh good times...)

*If we were planning on item or $ support above and beyond plaques/trophy stuff then it was more tangential. If we were partnering with a store we might get a $/gift confirm beforehand but often not or linked to the amount of players/$ in the door. If we weren't in league with a store then it was usually recompensating the TO (at a loss usually) who, after expense for terrain and locale had nothing left.

*The larger or more supported the earlier I'd figure they would have knowledge.

The key thing to remember is that the goal of the T/O is to make the even fun and rewarding for ALL the participants, not just the winner.

Most of the money raised by an Indy GT goes to support the event, venue, terrain, staff ect... Prize support is usually what is left over as well as the assistance provided by sponsors.

The other thing to remember as far as your expectations of winning is that in a GT just winning all your games is only a small part of it. I remember when Mauleed and I went to the Philly GT years ago and 8 people went 5-0. Both Ed and I won every game and yet He took second and I took third for best general.

Neither of us even placed in the top 10 overall.

So before you count your victory, remember that winning all your games is just a small part of the GT experience. Its very different from Ard Boyz

Timmah wrote:I come from a magic the gathering background tbh.

Wizards mandates prize support for certain events such as pre-releases. They also provide said prize support if the prize amounts are pre-set. In my experience, independently run 'draft' or 'constructed' tournaments with prizes provided out of the organizer's pocket will have more of a 'floating' prize support dependent on the size of pot from entries.

I guess I don't understand why other games can do events and such like this and easily provide amazing prize support.

Yet when 40k does it, they always claim to barely break even or lose money.

Timmah wrote:I guess I don't understand why other games can do events and such like this and easily provide amazing prize support. Yet when 40k does it, they always claim to barely break even or lose money.

It is because MTG has an official tournament circuit controlled by the company, where as Games Workshop does not (and has no intention of ever running one.) Considering that GW North America has no events team, securing prize support from GWHQ is spotty at best.

Often 40K/WFB/BFG tourneys are player driven, local affairs.

Put yourself in their shoes Timmah:
If you organized and ran a tournament on your own, how much prize support would you have?

asugradinwa wrote:In the 6 GT like events (30+ players, entry fee of $40+, 5 game tournaments) there were prizes for major catagories such as Best Overall, Best General, Best Painting, Players Choice, and Best Sportsman.

In all but one of these events prizes were also given out to the 2nd and 3rd place finishers in each catagory. While the 1st place player may get something like a Space Marine Strike force, the 2nd player may get a battleforce, while the 3rd gets something like an Ork Battlewagon.

In the one tournament that did not give out prizes to 2nd & 3rd they gave out some pretty good prizes to the 1st place players, such as a realm of battle board.

All of those prizes are perfectly acceptable to me. Battleforce boxes, battlewagons, strike forces, boxes, blisters....all of it is good prizes. I guess what really would bother me would be paying $30 or whatever and winning....and be the recipient of this "BRAND NEW SWORD! valued at $200." *laughing* I'd rather have $50 in store credit than a $200 sword. And I'd rather have $10 in store credit than a $10 plaque.

Frazzled wrote:Often 40K/WFB/BFG tourneys are player driven, local affairs.

Put yourself in their shoes Timmah:
If you organized and ran a tournament on your own, how much prize support would you have?

Tons, in fact the majority of MTG events are run by local shops and the like.

Yes the MTG tournament circuit has lots of support from the company, but look at some of the most popular formats outside of the hundred some pros.

Type 1 and Legacy are solely driven by individuals and stores. And they easily fund their own events and provide good prize support.

Tons of LGS run tournaments that more than pay for themselves. Giving back, usually the entire entry fee, prizes in store credit or something.

A FLGS is much different than a tournament ran at a venue. LGS are already paying rent on the space and don't need anything other than tables. If you are renting out a venue for a larger event then it costs a lot more. If you had to pay 1k (Extremely low estimate, most places cost a lot more than that in Cali.) to rent a place for the weekend out of pocket how much prize support would you have?

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Often 40K/WFB/BFG tourneys are player driven, local affairs.

Put yourself in their shoes Timmah:
If you organized and ran a tournament on your own, how much prize support would you have?

Tons, in fact the majority of MTG events are run by local shops and the like.

Yes the MTG tournament circuit has lots of support from the company, but look at some of the most popular formats outside of the hundred some pros.

Type 1 and Legacy are solely driven by individuals and stores. And they easily fund their own events and provide good prize support.

Tons of LGS run tournaments that more than pay for themselves. Giving back, usually the entire entry fee, prizes in store credit or something.

When my bboy was going to Pokemon and the YuGiYo tournaments prize support was limited to store credit or mayhaps a special card. I'd never say anything over $30-$50.

Frazzled wrote:Often 40K/WFB/BFG tourneys are player driven, local affairs.

Put yourself in their shoes Timmah:
If you organized and ran a tournament on your own, how much prize support would you have?

Major contributing factor: venue issues.

How much space does a magic game take? Now, how much space does a 40k game take? I would guess that a MTG game takes 1/4 the space, which directly affects the costs of the event.

MTG requires little to no setup. 40k events typically have to be set up the day before, meaning an extra day's hall rental.

Never mind issues like terrain manufacture, storage, and transport.

Frazzled wrote:When my bboy was going to Pokemon and the YuGiYo tournaments prize support was limited to store credit or mayhaps a special card. I'd never say anything over $30-$50.

Pokemon || YuGiOh != Warhammer, unless I really missed something. There's dozens of levels of complexity between the events and about the same difference in price.

Still, I think that the overhead required for wargaming tournaments does mean that the prize money cannot quite scale as well. A friend and I attended local gaming store tournaments on a weekly basis for M:tG, MageKnight, and Mechwarrior, among other games. Because all you really needed to play was a 4'x4' or smaller surface and the cards/figures brought by both players, there wasn't any real overhead, and we didn't expect much out of it anyway. As such, the two of us would use our winnings to prepay our next week's entry, plus buy some loot, and never actually pay to enter for months at a time.

Maybe the problem now is that for some of us, our expectations grew faster than the prize support?

((Edited for unintended emoticon removal))

Timmah wrote:Tons, in fact the majority of MTG events are run by local shops and the like.

Yes the MTG tournament circuit has lots of support from the company, but look at some of the most popular formats outside of the hundred some pros.

Type 1 and Legacy are solely driven by individuals and stores. And they easily fund their own events and provide good prize support.

Tons of LGS run tournaments that more than pay for themselves. Giving back, usually the entire entry fee, prizes in store credit or something.

As noted above, LGS have fixed costs - they already have the space. As such, it costs them little to turn their space into a tournament, but these are space-limited; my store has a max 40k capacity of about 32 people (and it gets pretty crowded for that). If they were running a magic tournament, they could probably handle 100 or so, chairs allowing. (And don't forget the difference between cash and store credit - the store is effectively giving you $6 back for every $10 you paid to enter.)

If you want 5 games, with more than 40 people, you will have to rent a venue. And that's not a negligible cost.

Hulksmash wrote:A FLGS is much different than a tournament ran at a venue. LGS are already paying rent on the space and don't need anything other than tables. If you are renting out a venue for a larger event then it costs a lot more. If you had to pay 1k (Extremely low estimate, most places cost a lot more than that in Cali.) to rent a place for the weekend out of pocket how much prize support would you have?

That's a sobering thought. o.O A very sobering thought indeed.

Then it is probably important for TOs to find a more appropriate venue? I think the largest FLGS here has 20 tables; that could hold 40 people. I'm playing at semi-finals for 'Ard boyz at a store that made room for 40 players and all of the spots were reserved a week in advance....they're full.

I went to an RTT two weekends ago that was held in a warehouse type building. The guy running the tournament has a mother who works there, so they got to use it for free. You could probably have put 50 tables in there, there was massive amounts of space not on the production floor.

Perhaps some process engineering is in order?

Go check Starcitygames. They constantly run large tournaments at venues that they rent out. Yes, you need about 1/2 the space for an mtg game than 40k game. Yet they are still able to usually offer in the upwards of over 1k in prizes easily.

(btw I am not arguing that you are lying or something about breaking even. I just find it strange that there is such a huge difference.)

Timmah wrote:Tons of LGS run tournaments that more than pay for themselves. Giving back, usually the entire entry fee, prizes in store credit or something.

This is true if you only consider constructed events and you ignore any associated capital overhead costs such as venue, food etc. In sealed or draft events you have to pay for materials used out of the entry fee.

-edit- most small stores run the latter events as it alows them to clear old stock.

When I ran my store we could host up to 250 for a CCG tourney, and 40 for a minis tourney(80 if we maxed out our square footage wth extra tables). 40k takes up 4x or more the space of a card tourney. Its not just the playing space its the movement space needed as well. A mini player needs to be able to move freely to get to his figs, a ccg player is just sitting in a fixed location so not only can you fit more players per chair, but more tables per square foot. Also all a CCG player needs is his 2x2 feet of table space. A mini gamer needs a full 4x6 board with 6-8 peices of terrain that must be built, stored, set up and maintained.

In addition CCG tournaments are intended to be competetive, and you can run a full swiss torunament with the winner being the actual person who won. Thus people are willing to pay more and expect the payout to be more as well. CCG tournaments are also usually supported by a very active and very organized national or internationa organized play system.

CCG vs Minis is really apples and oranges. If you are going to compare, compare mini events to mini events.

Dashofpepper wrote:I went to an RTT two weekends ago that was held in a warehouse type building. The guy running the tournament has a mother who works there, so they got to use it for free. You could probably have put 50 tables in there, there was massive amounts of space not on the production floor.

Perhaps some process engineering is in order?

@Dash: It is not just a matter of venue cost, but appropriateness of location, and ease of accessibility. It is easy to get a huge and cheap venue out in the industrial zone of any city, but the question is whether the players are able/willing to go out there. Is the site reachable by public transportation? Is there parking? Does all the tournament material need to be shipped to the location? Can they provide tables? In the case of multi-day tournaments, proximity to amenities and lodgings also needs to be taken into account.

A convention hall / hotel may be more expensive, but logistically much better as they are usually easily accessible and can provide tables and help setting up and tearing down before and after the event. Of course, many other factors come into play as well... these are just some that I am familiar with.