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Maybe the tournament scene needs to switch to a better format, like 1000 point, hour long games so you can get 4-6+ rounds in to play an actual swiss tournament.

Ofc that is the discussion for a whole nother thread.

Different topic! Different topic! Alert alert. We're through the looking glass here people (always wanted to say that).

Its also a question of expectation.

The vast majority ( I know this is not the case for you, but remember the TO is concerned with what make the most of his potential players happy) are not playing for prize support. No one went to Adepticon for the prize support, it was a Really cool addition but unless you lived there the total cost of your con expereince was more than even that reaver titan awarded for gladiator.

And Adepticon is the exception, not the rule. Most people go to a GT to play people they dont know, in a nice venue, then go out and have some beers with them afterwards. Every GT I have ever been to has been primarily a social event. Who wins and looses is cool and all, but not the point of the event for 95% of the participants.

If you design an event to only appeal to 5% of your audience, then you will not have a sucessful event.

1) No. Prize support, if any, will depend upon how many attend and how the tournament is structured. Unless it's the Adepticon Gladiator and I am trying to decide whether to drive 20 miles to win the prize, I really don't care to know. Heck, it's better if I don't because then there's no pressure to win. I don't like pressure. It makes me sweat.

2) For a FLGS Tourney, I'm happy with a plaque. Heck, I'd rather have a plaque. Any additional product is a nice to have, gee I'll come back sort of thing, but not really a determining factor in whether or not I go.

For lack of swiss style (whatever that means?) 40k play....

Then perhaps the "perfect" venue for finding the true "best player" and not feeling bad about giving the lion's share of prize to first would involve some sort of merged tournament where it involved two days of gaming over two weekends so that players could play a much wider selection of opponents?

Then the "winners" didn't get there by a 3 game chance. I dunno.

Dashofpepper wrote:For lack of swiss style (whatever that means?) 40k play....

Swiss-style pairings (in a pure win-loss environment) involve pairing the winners of each round against each, until you only have one undefeated player. For 8 players, it takes 3 rounds; 16 takes 4; 32 takes 5; 64 takes 6; 128 takes 7; etc.

Variations: think the NCAA tournament, where the highest-ranked remaining team plays the lowest-ranked remaining team each round, such that you (probably) have the two best teams (by some measure) playing in the finals.

Multi-objective scenarios (and bonus points) are used instead, to help break up the pack; it's hard to organize 6 or 7 round tournaments, and immediately demotivating to a lot of people to know they are out of contention after a single sub-optimal game (which means they bash your tournament on the internet, and don't come back next year).

Hmm, Im kind of curious as to why people only play for prizes. I mean those very few that ONLY play in tournaments.

I have a hard time imagining going to a tournament purely to win, only to get a prize that helps you win the next tournament to win yet more guys. They dont have any value outside of being minis.

I guess if you ebay them itd almost be worth it, but I think I can find better ways to make money.

I don't go to make money on the prizes I win, but the value of the prizes relates to how much trouble I'll take to make the event. I won't drive 200 miles to play for a paper certificate or even a battleforce, but I will drive that far for a 2500 point army!

When I've played in paid events, prize support has been secondary to playing. It's nice to win something, but that won't be the reason I'm going.
____

Oh yeah, if you're playing for prizes, why not just take the tournament fee and buy more stuff with it?

I have played in many tournaments in many states and there were only 3 times where I knew what the prize support was. They were Adepticon, ‘Ard Boyz, and a 5 game RTT in Tampa that had $1000 going to the first place winner.

I play almost exclusively at tournaments, and I travel far for them. I am going to drive from Phoenix to LA to play in the SoCal Slaughter in a couple of weeks, and do you know what the first place prize is? I don't know either, but that is secondary to playing some good games of 40k.


I have paid for flight up to San Francisco, paid for a hotel room for 2 nights, paid the entrance fee, and then won a 5 game GT style event with about 60 players and for my efforts I won a very small trophy.

Some people have been saying that they want the prize pool to be advertised first. I am one who does not want what to know what it is going in. If you have a large prize pool you have a lot more at stake than just having a good game of 40k. If you put pressure on people to do well, then you are going to have a lot of issues with sportsmanship and doing other things to “game” the system than you have now. When you raise the stakes, you will raise the intensity, and you will lower the enjoyment.

Dash of Pepper wrote:
If I want people to show up at my tournament...it darn well better be worth attending. Who's going to spend $400 to travel across half the country and bring their Golden-Demon award winning army to a tournament, shell out another $35 to enter the tournament so that they can win $50 in gift certificates? Why would the best players in the country spend cash to travel to a tournament, spend cash to get into the tournament so that they can win $50 in gift certificates from local shops they don't go to, a sword, a T-shirt, and a piece of paper?

The top players fly around the country to play against each other, and to have a good gaming experience rather than playing for prize pools. The US GTs never had prize other than a trophy up until a couple of years ago when they started to give out a few boxes with a win, and those tickets cost you $125. If you are expecting a giant prize pool from that, you have another thing coming. Same thing with the UK GT. GW already owns the hall, yet they are charging $90 for their GT heats and do you know what you win? A chance to go to the final GT in March, and do you know what you get when you win that? A nice trophy.

So yes, being a mercenary and only showing up when it is worth your time for a big payout I think is unreasonable, and if you are only their to win a prize, I would hope that you would just stay home instead.

Well said Allan.

G

Well....I'd definitely have to say "to each their own" is a great motto.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but trophies hold no interest to me. Won dozens of them in college for debate; trophies, plaques, other awards.

Without exception, I threw them all away when I left the competition; sometimes on the way out. I'd rather win a roll of toilet paper than a trophy; at least I can use the toilet paper. I think that's my issue: I'm utilitarian. I don't decorate my house, hang posters or artwork on the walls. Things need to serve a purpose and have a useful function. In a tournament, I want to win something I can use. I can't use a plaque, I can't use a certificate, I can't use a sword (realistically). I'd rather have cash, or store credit, or a gift card to McDonalds, or a case of toilet paper, or a new pair of shoes, or mini-laser pointer to use in 40k or something.

Then again, that might just be me.

As for using that tournament entry fee and just buying a box of something....that's absolutely not the right answer for me. I like to gamble, and entering a tournament is a gamble. I'm gambling $X that I can win $Y, where $Y is more than $X. If folks are ok with playing for fun and not worried about what the prize support looks like, then it might be a better (and more affordable) solution for some of these venues to not charge an entry fee at all, and have someone donate $1 to cover the cost of printing out 10 certificates for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in different categories. Then everyone can just focus on having fun and playing games.

I have a hard time (probably because of my personal attitude) believing that people shell out $30 - $50 to play in a tournament and don't care what the prize is. If that were the case, TOs would keep the entry fees and not give prizes. I bet you can imagine what would happen to the tournaments then....

Dashofpepper wrote:I'd rather win a roll of toilet paper than a trophy; at least I can use the toilet paper.

As for using that tournament entry fee and just buying a box of something....that's absolutely not the right answer for me. I like to gamble,

I have a hard time (probably because of my personal attitude) believing that people shell out $30 - $50 to play in a tournament and don't care what the prize is.

You can play for toilet paper, go for it!

If you like to gamble, that's what Vegas is for.

When I've paid to enter events, that's exactly how it went.

I run a couple of tournaments a month at my store. Here's some rambling bitz of data.

-used to run them in the store. Tournaments take up all the space, all day. Hosting a tournament for 16 players mean't no pick up games, and 20-30 people didn't come in to play on tourney days. Shop would be down hundreds of dollars in sales. Tournaments actually pissed off most of the player base, and lost money, and took more work....Hmmm..

-now I rent out a larger space from the mall. Spent 1000.00 on tables, another 1000.00 on more terrain...hmmm, not making money yet....

-Small tournaments I charge 15.00, lets say I get 20 people. 300 in, minus rental cost, minus cost of trophies, GW kicks in 150 in prize support, I hire an extra person for the day....not making money, but close to break even

-hold huge event, 2 days, 40 players say they are coming, and we are charging 40.00 each. Tons of money! I promise 1000.00 in prizes!...and only 22 show up. 22x40 - rentx2days, minus my work, minus 1000.00 in stuff + support from GW. I break even on an event I worked on for 2 months....hmmmm

-WHEEE! 'Ardboyz is here. Lots of people coming to regionals, 44 signed up!...but it's a free tournament, GW gives out the prizes. I lose the cost of renting the room. ....hmmm, hope those 44 people buy enough at the shop to pay for the room, and justify the 20 hours of work we put in getting ready for it....

Tournaments don't make a profit for most organizers. Certainly not when you factor in the work. CCG tournaments are a different animal. Far less needed to run them, far less space, and if it's a draft, you make a profit off the product that your essentially selling. Wargaming tournaments are generally about having a good time, giving players a chance to compete for the day, and the fun of hosting a big event.

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Here's the main problem with tournaments, and announcing prizes ahead of time - who the hell knows how many people are coming? Gamers hate to commit, hate to prepay. TO's basically have to wing it every time. Stuff like Adepticon is the exception, as they have reached a point where they are self sustaining. You could make the prizes based on how many people show up. That just means you'll explain the formula, and the next question will be "well, and how many people are coming? I want to know before I sign up."

I don't envision tournaments that have have prize support being able to tell how much the prizes are in advance....


But they could at LEAST say "Here's how prizes are broken down" and give a percent. I know I keep making this reference, but like a poker game! 50/35/15 of available prize money is the split or something. That way, when you know that 1st place is going to get 10% of available prize funds (because there are so many prizes) people like me can shy away....

It *is* a gamble. I'm gambling in every tournament that I'm going to get more than my money's worth in prizes. =p EVERYONE is gambling the same.

Nope. Many of us might just be gambling that we're going to have a good day of gaming.

But the idea that there will be a stated percentage, defies reality. You can't seem to accept that.

If you really like to gamble, perhaps you should run a few tournaments and see if you can make a "profit" while giving out the sorts of prizes that you envision.

I agree John. I think it would be an ex(ellent opportunity for Justin (Dash).

: )

G

In general, I don't care what the specific prizes are for any tournament, and I too prefer a plaque to another box of guys.

If there are unique, one-of-a-kind prizes (like, a painted army, or a specifically converted piece) that's nice to know going in.

For smaller RTTs, though, I do like knowing that whatever entry fee is being paid is used for the tournament participants, as either prizes or door-prizes or whatever. I don't mind paying $10 or $20 for a RTT, as long as I know that it's being used to encourage participation in the events, rather than lining the pockets of the organizer.

For events being run at LGS's, the best way to do this seems to be store credit. The store owner takes the proceeds of the tournament, which is not a bad thing for letting your space be used, and the community buys stuff from you with the prize money.

I'm with Timmah on this one; players should know ahead of time what the prizes will be like even if its just a week or so before the tournament. It doesn't seem professional to do otherwise however a lot of tournaments do seem to be run by relative amateurs.

On the BoLScon website they've had the prizes listed there for a while now and it seems like a hefty investment from them:

We are proud to announce a lavish prize and give-away pool of over $11,000! This will include several large Forgeworld pieces including the 40k Brass Scorpion and Warhammer Fantasy Fire Dragon. BoLScon 2009 may have the highest level of prizes per attendee you've ever seen!
http://www.bolscon.com/

I'm a fan of the system where everybody walks away with something but this will depend on the scale of the event and how much the entry fee ends up costing; along with other factors like does the TO have a GW discount membership, etc.

Whats the point of winning or doing well at a tournament if you don't get anything to show for it? Almost encourages a communist mentality!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I'd rather win a roll of toilet paper than a trophy; at least I can use the toilet paper.

As for using that tournament entry fee and just buying a box of something....that's absolutely not the right answer for me. I like to gamble,

I have a hard time (probably because of my personal attitude) believing that people shell out $30 - $50 to play in a tournament and don't care what the prize is.

You can play for toilet paper, go for it!

If you like to gamble, that's what Vegas is for.

When I've paid to enter events, that's exactly how it went.

Modquisiiton on:
I have not gone further down the thread but lets maintain politeness. The previous thread was closed and all parties in that thread, myself included, have maintained politeness. Let us maintain that please.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Nope. Many of us might just be gambling that we're going to have a good day of gaming.

But the idea that there will be a stated percentage, defies reality. You can't seem to accept that.

If you really like to gamble, perhaps you should run a few tournaments and see if you can make a "profit" while giving out the sorts of prizes that you envision.

I don't gamble on having a good day of gaming; that's expected when I game. if the gaming wasn't good or fun, neither you nor I would be in the hobby. None of that or the gaming surrounding it costs money. But when you attach a financial stipulation to the game that is already fun and good, then you have to add...prizes.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Green Blow Fly when he told me that bragging rights of having won should be prize enough: For any sort of entry fee, you have to make available more options than what I already get for free. You keep talking about running tournaments for profit....is that why people do them?

I thought that people hosted tournaments (store owners) to bring in more foot traffic; rare is the tournament I've seen where someone didn't end up buying something. I can't speak to BoLS or anything crazy though. Feel free to stop suggesting I need to run a tournament though. =p If I *did* run a tournament, I would announce beforehand what prizes were going to look like, even if I don't know amounts. For example, "First is going to get a bunch, second is going to get less, and third will get enough to justify them paying the entrance fee."

I don't agree with everyone getting something. If you want to do that, then try this: Reduce entry fees to $10, remove prizes altogether, and announce that entry fees are going to go to cover lunch for everyone. No matter how you spin it that prizes don't matter, I'd bet you anything you like that if you took them away, no one would come to your events. *You* can't seem to accept that. Human nature defies it.

I have run a couple of small tournaments before. I consider myself to be volunteering; I wasn't looking to make profit out of it, and I didn't keep any of the entry fees; 100% of it went back into prizes, and I broke down on the tournament announcement what prizes would be (based on participation). It wasn't hard....not sure where the push-back is coming from.

I wonder why no one outside of North America is commenting.


And for the record, I would like to win a sword.

No swords for me; I don't "collect" stuff. I want useful stuff! =p

Well, if you don't say what the prize support is, if you don't like a player that won a category, you can just have no prize for that category (Happened to me...Bah)

Dashofpepper wrote:But when you attach a financial stipulation to the game that is already fun and good, then you have to add...prizes.

Uh... what about fee for services rendered?

Or is the act of "organizing a tournament" not deserving of some sort of financial stipulation (considering running of said tournament typically costs the organizers money up front)? You seem to be insinuating that if the tournament organizer can't turn most of the entry fee into prizes that they are somehow greedy and/or incompetent.

The prize structure for the tournaments I run works like this; Everyone pays a $10 entry fee. ~$20 goes into the store terrain fund. The remaining $ amount is doubled and I have that much in store credit to give out as prizes. On average we get around a dozen people showng up and I break the prizes down into $80, $60, $40. Any money after that is distributed as $20 door prizes given out to randomly drawn participents who didn't place.

Aduro wrote:The prize structure for the tournaments I run works like this; Everyone pays a $10 entry fee. ~$20 goes into the store terrain fund. The remaining $ amount is doubled and I have that much in store credit to give out as prizes. On average we get around a dozen people showng up and I break the prizes down into $80, $60, $40. Any money after that is distributed as $20 door prizes given out to randomly drawn participents who didn't place.

The remaining money is doubled....how does that work? Where does the money come from? Do you pay out of pocket for the extra cash and store credit? If everyone is giving $10, and you're giving out 2X-20....who's chipping in?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:
You seem to be insinuating that if the tournament organizer can't turn most of the entry fee into prizes that they are somehow greedy and/or incompetent.

I'd encourage you not to attempt insinuating meaning into peoples' words, or interpreting them as other than at face value. You're either very bad at it and shouldn't, or are being deliberately malicious; I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

The store.

Dashofpepper wrote:The remaining money is doubled....how does that work? Where does the money come from? Do you pay out of pocket for the extra cash and store credit? If everyone is giving $10, and you're giving out 2X-20....who's chipping in?

Having had interest in opening my own FLGS in the near future, I found from speaking with sales representatives from many companies that the difference is that even with that increase, the store is simply selling to you at near cost. When you buy in bulk, and maintain a good business relationship with your suppliers, you're going to make 50-70% profit on what you sell. So doubling the buy-in and not asking for a profit on the winnings is the store's way of contributing to the pot, hoping that those who don't place will still buy things that day, and that those who do place will buy more than they have credit for.

Bad Math (Speaking as someone running a gaming store for 2 decades and having a masters in stats theory, so when I say bad math, it's with authority! )

1) Doubling is bad, as you don't get a 50% discount from GW. You actually lose a bit doing it thatway. If the store isn't a direct account, it's a lot worse.

(Malecus-Don't count on 50-70% profit if you open a store, you'll be lucky to have 35% gross profit the first year. Low volume, cc fees, shrinkage, overordering, damage, shipping costs.....)

Example: Store takes in 100 in fees, 20 bucks to terrain, double the remaining 80 to 160, and it costs you 88 dollars. You just lost 8 bucks, and gained 20 in terrain. You ran the event why?

2) Time, enery, and space are not free. The employee running the tournament is drawing a paycheck, the space costs money, increased electrical from hopefully running your AC to accomodate the increase in people. No matter what else, stores cannot 'break even'. They have costs to pay.