Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Asmodai wrote:
Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.
Kinda weird to see Conversion as an USR, is there that many weapons that have that rule?
Neat to see more "out of phase" reactions, maybe by 11th GW will go full-on alternating :p

Tsagualsa wrote:

Asmodai wrote:Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Also, they sneaked in Critical Hits, confirming that 'Critical' works on things other than wounds

Notably, since it's a Critical Hit on a 4+, it's easier to trigger the extra d3 Sustained Hits.

 Asmodai wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

Asmodai wrote:Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Also, they sneaked in Critical Hits, confirming that 'Critical' works on things other than wounds

Notably, since it's a Critical Hit on a 4+, it's easier to trigger the extra d3 Sustained Hits.

Pretty sure they mentioned Critical Hits in one of the early reveals. This is a good example of how the Critical system can streamline the game. It'll take a little bit of getting used to as the various USRs are new, but it should make for a much easier to understand game in the long run.

Slipspace wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

Asmodai wrote:Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Also, they sneaked in Critical Hits, confirming that 'Critical' works on things other than wounds

Notably, since it's a Critical Hit on a 4+, it's easier to trigger the extra d3 Sustained Hits.

Pretty sure they mentioned Critical Hits in one of the early reveals. This is a good example of how the Critical system can streamline the game. It'll take a little bit of getting used to as the various USRs are new, but it should make for a much easier to understand game in the long run.

The weapon article already showed the Sustained Hits ability which keys of Critical Hits, but it's nice to have confirmation what critical hits are. Some people need that, if you followed the discussions about crit wounds

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.
Kinda weird to see Conversion as an USR, is there that many weapons that have that rule?
Neat to see more "out of phase" reactions, maybe by 11th GW will go full-on alternating :p

Conversion may still be a relatively rare rule - I notice that Conversion and One Shot are spelled out on the sheet while stuff like Heavy and Rapid Fire aren't - might suggest that the less common abilities will include the reminder text.

Seems to be another "you lose 1 WS/BS but don't worry, there's lots of ways to get it back".

Which is fine I guess, but feels a bit contrived.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.

Kind of. They're going to feel really constrained if opponents regularly fight to maim, rather than wipe out your units.

Alternately, go for killing blows with trash units like grots or cultists, just to add insult to injury.

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.

Kind of. They're going to feel really constrained if opponents regularly fight to maim, rather than wipe out your units.

Alternately, go for killing blows with trash units like grots or cultists, just to add insult to injury.

Or go for kills with units that already have 2 tokens. They can’t hate you more then they already do at that point.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Can you really tell me you know an intercessor is 18 and a sister 11? Can you really not use your imagination enough to consider extra rules for units outside of raw wounds/attacks?

Honestly you need to go calm down somewhere, it's ridiculous.

Tyel wrote:
Seems to be another "you lose 1 WS/BS but don't worry, there's lots of ways to get it back".

Which is fine I guess, but feels a bit contrived.

I think it was the best way to reduce the power of that faction without running into problems with tokens.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Asmodai wrote:Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Also, they sneaked in Critical Hits, confirming that 'Critical' works on things other than wounds

In before "but was is a Critical Hit" philosophical external monologue.

 Nevelon wrote:

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.

Kind of. They're going to feel really constrained if opponents regularly fight to maim, rather than wipe out your units.

Alternately, go for killing blows with trash units like grots or cultists, just to add insult to injury.

Or go for kills with units that already have 2 tokens. They can’t hate you more then they already do at that point.

That too, but those should be priority targets for the squats.


I also noticed some of the more... excessive... special rules went away, as did the odd weapon types. Pretty glad for that. Hope orks get shifted back to fewer special snowflake rules (dakka, for example has no reason to exist with the way rapid fire works now).

Toughness 5 is a big boost, wonder if any of the bigger infantry and bikes will get T6.

BS 4 negates the first judgement token and puts them firmly in the Tau/Guard category. Necron warriors went to BS4 but the Monolith stayed at BS3, so they are more likely to be a mixed BS3/4 faction. Another feather in the Sister's caps that they remained BS3

6" less range on quite a few guns.

Apparently losing:
Special snowflake advance rules.
Ignoring movement penalties rules.
Preventing wound re-rolls
Armour of contempt
Beam rules

The pre nerf points costs in 9th make a lot more sense for an army designed this way, it will be nice to see a few more squat squads on the table at 2k. Wait, am I supposed to go on a massive rant about how badly nerfed they are before we see the points? Just look at the combat patrol box, clearly they'll cost too much compared to Marines! My army may not have an easy answer to every possible opponent, reeeee!

Dudeface wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Can you really tell me you know an intercessor is 18 and a sister 11? Can you really not use your imagination enough to consider extra rules for units outside of raw wounds/attacks?

Honestly you need to go calm down somewhere, it's ridiculous.

Marines have their own army wide rules and strats. So you just have the base costs for the profile and then all that on top of it. Sisters aren’t the only ones with off balance sheet abilities.

I don’t think the AoF or Martyrdom rules are enough to justify making a Sister 4 points more expensive than they should be and not applying any increases to the Intercessor.

Also, I thought point was to represent unit abilities on the profile and not have them elsewhere?

Not only that but you’re all assuming they won’t day 1 FAQ it because everybody complains about struggling to kill tanks and so they bring back all the AP. Which I notice the Intercessor didn’t lose BTW despite that being a super powerful thing now that should come at a huge premium on base infantry.

Look if you want marines to Uber elite then you pay the points for it and get less models than armies. It’s very straight forward. 11/18 is GW trying to keep the armies in the same lane and just ignoring what each unit brings. Marines should be pushing into where Custodes are now.

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Judgment tokens are now a more sensible buff.

Kind of. They're going to feel really constrained if opponents regularly fight to maim, rather than wipe out your units.

Alternately, go for killing blows with trash units like grots or cultists, just to add insult to injury.

there will 100% still be ways to add tokens other ways i'd wager.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Not only that but you’re all assuming they won’t day 1 FAQ it because everybody complains about struggling to kill tanks and so they bring back all the AP. Which I notice the Intercessor didn’t lose BTW despite that being a super powerful thing now that should come at a huge premium on base infantry.

wtf are you even talking about? day 1 FAQ'ing what? extra ap on everything in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Also, I thought point was to represent unit abilities on the profile and not have them elsewhere?

Bonuses from characters, multiple possible battalion options, enhancements, stratagems

youre freaking out while only having like 1% of the information, take a break.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Can you really tell me you know an intercessor is 18 and a sister 11? Can you really not use your imagination enough to consider extra rules for units outside of raw wounds/attacks?

Honestly you need to go calm down somewhere, it's ridiculous.

Marines have their own army wide rules and strats. So you just have the base costs for the profile and then all that on top of it. Sisters aren’t the only ones with off balance sheet abilities.

I don’t think the AoF or Martyrdom rules are enough to justify making a Sister 4 points more expensive than they should be and not applying any increases to the Intercessor.

Also, I thought point was to represent unit abilities on the profile and not have them elsewhere?

Not only that but you’re all assuming they won’t day 1 FAQ it because everybody complains about struggling to kill tanks and so they bring back all the AP. Which I notice the Intercessor didn’t lose BTW despite that being a super powerful thing now that should come at a huge premium on base infantry.

Look if you want marines to Uber elite then you pay the points for it and get less models than armies. It’s very straight forward. 11/18 is GW trying to keep the armies in the same lane and just ignoring what each unit brings. Marines should be pushing into where Custodes are now.

No one but you is convinced that 11 and 18 are the relevant point values. That's why people are telling you to knock it off, your argument is based on a fiction.
We haven't seen those numbers yet, and you can't base an argument on the entirely fictional idea that while things are changing, those are definitely staying the same.

Voss wrote:
No one but you is convinced that 11 and 18 are the relevant point values. That's why people are telling you to knock it off, your argument is based on a fiction.
We haven't seen those numbers yet, and you can't base an argument on the entirely fictional idea that while things are changing, those are definitely staying the same.

The points ratio will likely be very close to what it is now. Anyone thinking you should get 3 Sisters for 1 Marine is really reaching.

wtf are you even talking about? day 1 FAQ'ing what? extra ap on everything in the game?

Maybe it is weapon strenght? no so fun to have str 8 or 9 anti tank from the looks of vehicle stats.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not only that but you’re all assuming they won’t day 1 FAQ it because everybody complains about struggling to kill tanks and so they bring back all the AP. Which I notice the Intercessor didn’t lose BTW despite that being a super powerful thing now that should come at a huge premium on base infantry.

They have lost the additional AP from Doctrines, though - and with the merged profile, there goes the -2AP for the Heavy variant (whose name escapes me right now).

 Dysartes wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not only that but you’re all assuming they won’t day 1 FAQ it because everybody complains about struggling to kill tanks and so they bring back all the AP. Which I notice the Intercessor didn’t lose BTW despite that being a super powerful thing now that should come at a huge premium on base infantry.

They have lost the additional AP from Doctrines, though - and with the merged profile, there goes the -2AP for the Heavy variant (whose name escapes me right now).

And D2.

Stalker - 36" A1 S4 AP2 D2, Heavy
Auto - 24" A3 S4 AP0 D1, Assault
Bolt Rifle, 30" A1 S4 AP1 D1, RF ( but was effectively always on )

All condensed to :

24" A2 S4 AP1 D1, Heavy, Assault

Which is a decent profile for a unit that can't take any specials or heavies like other units in the game.

Well, grenade launchers for the better krak rounds, presumably. Adds some extra punch against T5 infantry.

An option to buy special and heavy weapons. Which makes the unit more dangerous but at a cost of even more points. Which on an overcosted base unit isn’t ideal. Even if they said you got all the weapons for free that would be going for all the other armies in the game as well.

Also, if you just want to spam those weapons you have Dominions and Retributors to do that. It’s more about how cheap those guns are and if that weapon access is baked into the points that just incentivises you to take as few Sisters with bolters. Buy those retributor squads instead.

I think it will push people in to running minimal troops for the sticky objectives, and then going hard in to tanks or melee elite units depending what kind of a marine army they play. All boils down to point efficiency and how good marine tanks are going to be for different armies.

On the other hand, I have no idea how orks or GSC are going to end up as, with the core rules we have seen till now. Could go either way. Ton of swarms of infantry or a tank of vehicles.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Which is a decent profile for a unit that can't take any specials or heavies like other units in the game.

Not really 'decent' as it's either bolt rifle that lost 6 inches of range or auto bolter that lost 1 attack (then there are chapters like RG or Raptors that liked 36 inch range and D2 and are now completely screwed). The ability to tailor the squad to your particular playstyle/chapter fluff was ace, now it's one-size-fits-none gak like old bolter, bolter, or bolter non-choice that made tactical squads into despised tax you tried to take as little as possible instead of fluffy backbone of the army as they didn't fit the playstyle of good 80% of the chapters in the game.

Yes, it's slightly bigger 'one-size-fits-none' than bolters and I hope it can be made to work, but I am not really optimistic here. Doubly so if inept writer sabotaging primaris last two editions slaps some absurd point premium on it for the hodge-podge of keywords it got now

Karol wrote:
I think it will push people in to running minimal troops for the sticky objectives, and then going hard in to tanks or melee elite units depending what kind of a marine army they play. All boils down to point efficiency and how good marine tanks are going to be for different armies.

On the other hand, I have no idea how orks or GSC are going to end up as, with the core rules we have seen till now. Could go either way. Ton of swarms of infantry or a tank of vehicles.

Marines want max squads if a character is in. Otherwise whatever fits a role.
Nids want big squads given their good morale.
CSM want big squads if they're going to use pacts so they don't have additional MW hitting units.
Orks want big units for that weirdboy spell.
Necrons and Daemons want big units to survive to reanimate / heal.
Guard want big units to resurrect.
Sisters want big units to make use of their bonus, but may also want small units to pick up miracle dice.
Votann want small units so it's easier for an opponent to get a token.

Taking a step back, why are the sisters complaints in here, the relative profiles and supporting rules aren't wildly different from today to such a point they're unrecognisable. Surely this shouldn't be anything new? Why the intercessors hate, not seeing tac Marine grumbles, or complaint compared to hearthkyn

Dudeface wrote:
Taking a step back, why are the sisters complaints in here, the relative profiles and supporting rules aren't wildly different from today to such a point they're unrecognisable. Surely this shouldn't be anything new? Why the intercessors hate, not seeing tac Marine grumbles, or complaint compared to hearthkyn

Which is the problem. The new edition should have looked to correct that instead of continuing putting an Intercessor and Sister of Battle in the same points bracket.

You could apply most of this to a tactical marine but we have the Intercessor profile and it’s the standard to which most other units in the game can be compared as the core troop choice of the most popular army and poster child of the setting.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Taking a step back, why are the sisters complaints in here, the relative profiles and supporting rules aren't wildly different from today to such a point they're unrecognisable. Surely this shouldn't be anything new? Why the intercessors hate, not seeing tac Marine grumbles, or complaint compared to hearthkyn

Which is the problem. The new edition should have looked to correct that instead of continuing putting an Intercessor and Sister of Battle in the same points bracket.

You could apply most of this to a tactical marine but we have the Intercessor profile and it’s the standard to which most other units in the game can be compared as the core troop choice of the most popular army and poster child of the setting.

'Points bracket' is just something you made up, and then 11 v 18 pts is not the same 'bracket', it means you get 5 of the one on 3 of the other.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Taking a step back, why are the sisters complaints in here, the relative profiles and supporting rules aren't wildly different from today to such a point they're unrecognisable. Surely this shouldn't be anything new? Why the intercessors hate, not seeing tac Marine grumbles, or complaint compared to hearthkyn

Which is the problem. The new edition should have looked to correct that instead of continuing putting an Intercessor and Sister of Battle in the same points bracket.

You could apply most of this to a tactical marine but we have the Intercessor profile and it’s the standard to which most other units in the game can be compared as the core troop choice of the most popular army and poster child of the setting.

'Points bracket' is just something you made up, and then 11 v 18 pts is not the same 'bracket', it means you get 5 of the one on 3 of the other.

It’s a term of phrase meant to convey an idea.

11 and 18 points is pretty comparable and once you factor in guns you’ll be on even numbers.

So those 3 models will have an extra wound, 3 extra attacks, str and t 4, hitting on 3 in CC and with a better gun. The only thing they have going is its five (weaker) bolters against three. Bolters that don’t have AP and shorter range.

If you think 3 Intercessors are the same as 5 sisters of Battle with bolters you’re not seeing the wood for the trees.

The guns should be the high cost item. Not the troops themselves.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

It’s a term of phrase meant to convey an idea.

11 and 18 points is pretty comparable and once you factor in guns you’ll be on even numbers.

just stop already holy feth.