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Totalwar1402 wrote:

It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Ork players have a reputation on this site for being the guys running around with those "the end is nigh" signs whenever anything happens anywhere in the game.

As an Ork player, please take a moment to stop panicking. We'll just have to wait and see how SoB fully turn out. If they're awful, I'll let you borrow my sign

There's far too much gnashing of teeth and jumping to conclusions in here, I think the dreaded "WaIt AnD sEe" is needed.

Outside of that, worth reminding people that you can't simultaneously priase that your vehicles are tougher/more useful whilst in the same post complaining you'll have a harder time killing vehicles.

Regards the whole intercessor thing, it'll never be a fair comparison because they didn't exist previously. Instead look at a tac marine, they were 12 points iirc? they went to 2 wounds and got placed at 18 points. They didn't gain an extra attack, they didn't get a better gun, no extra perks and I'm pretty sure plasma deletes the 18pt version as easily as the 12pt version, which in turn has reduced firepower for their troubles.

Wayniac wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Not being able to score at all, even uncontested, with 0 OC means battle shock is going to be critical, and also means if immunity to it stays, those units will be head and shoulders above the rest.

Rip plague marines I guess.

In my opinion, if synapse isn't making stuff immune to battle shock, nothing is.

That said, I don't understand your comment about plague marines, can you please explain?

I was thinking of poxwalkers are immune they will outclass plague marines yet again as the "go to" troop choice because they can't be shut down. Just like when PMs were too expensive and it was zombie hordes for days.

Hopefully not though.

I don't think they will be immune though, maybe even the opposite. Distracting a horde of mindless zombies away from what their commander wants shouldn't be too difficult.

I also think it's pretty much a given that plague marines will be OC2 while pox walkers will just be OC1, and killing 3 plague marines is still harder than killing 6 poxwalkers.

In the end, it just boils down to how many points each of them is.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Can you elaborate on this please? I think I am misreading. Are you saying that even in situations where the defender is being hit with an AP 0 wry, a 3+ save is useless? Or just that certain factions find it useless?

It's called hysterical hyperbole, I believe.

Of course 3+ saves matter.

 Souleater wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Can you elaborate on this please? I think I am misreading. Are you saying that even in situations where the defender is being hit with an AP 0 wry, a 3+ save is useless? Or just that certain factions find it useless?

I'm assuming they're referring to the lethality of AP / Rending since 8th edition which got more lethal in 9th edition where often times a 3+ save doesn't matter when you're facing huge volley's of shots with AP-2 or AP-3 which for some armies was relatively easy to put out. This in turn led to band-aids like Armour of Contempt and Invul proliferation for better or worse. Thankfully we are seeing an AP drop across the board in the 10th previews and I am hopeful that a 3+ Save will not be as easily circumvented. We shall see.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's called hysterical hyperbole, I believe.

Of course 3+ saves matter.

They matter more now, in fact. AP does seem to be going down across the board, especially with a lot of the small arms that we've seen that were previously -1AP. If that trend continues, a 3+ save will be much more useful than it is now.

It also looks like SoB players may well end up with a lot of Miracle Dice now. If that's the case, you need to factor the improved efficiency in to any evaluation of your units. If you have a lot of MD, and you're getting easy access to +1 to hit thanks to the Martyrdom rule, you can use any MD with a value of 2 to hit with things like non-moving HB, Exorcists, etc.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Souleater wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Can you elaborate on this please? I think I am misreading. Are you saying that even in situations where the defender is being hit with an AP 0 wry, a 3+ save is useless? Or just that certain factions find it useless?

I'm assuming they're referring to the lethality of AP / Rending since 8th edition which got more lethal in 9th edition where often times a 3+ save doesn't matter when you're facing huge volley's of shots with AP-2 or AP-3 which for some armies was relatively easy to put out. This in turn led to band-aids like Armour of Contempt and Invul proliferation for better or worse. Thankfully we are seeing an AP drop across the board in the 10th previews and I am hopeful that a 3+ Save will not be as easily circumvented. We shall see.

Except he says 3+ is irrelevant even when ap is 0. Ie you saving on 3+.

Guess anything but 2++ rr1's is irrelevant

Slipspace wrote:
They matter more now, in fact. AP does seem to be going down across the board, especially with a lot of the small arms that we've seen that were previously -1AP. If that trend continues, a 3+ save will be much more useful than it is now.

Like I said when they first started talking about save mods in 10th, I'm hoping that this is a middle ground between the all-or-nothing saves of 3rd-7th (where 3+ saves mattered so much that everyone played around them), and the "everything has a save mod" nonsense of 2nd and 8th/9th (where 3+ saves mattered so little, as you never got to ever take one, and GW had to invent bull gak bandaids like AoC rather than fix the issue!).

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'm a little unimpressed with Acts of Faith mostly in the production of miracle dice. Comparing it to some of the other similar abilities its just harder to apply. It's got both the "Control Objectives to trigger full value" and "Doesn't automatically affect everyone" issue. I mean Daemons have to control objectives for more value, but it affects everyone. Marines don't have to control objectives but 3 out of 5ish turns means it doesn't affect everyone. Sisters appear to have been hit with both. Have to wait and see, but it doesn't look good.

Getting ~50 MD per game looks unimpressive to you ? Its way better than a reroll because you already know what you will get.

Not sure where you're getting 50. One per turn, one per Sister Squad(s) on an objective on your turn - assuming a 50/50 3 of 6 objectives for five turns (even being on three turn 1 Command Phase is unlikely) is 15 plus 10 for 25. Beyond that you're either in a laugher or you're losing squads which means those lost squads aren't getting to use your dice. There's certainly more to see, but their mechanic looks more painful than Doctrines, Dark Pacts, etc.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Souleater wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Can you elaborate on this please? I think I am misreading. Are you saying that even in situations where the defender is being hit with an AP 0 wry, a 3+ save is useless? Or just that certain factions find it useless?

I'm assuming they're referring to the lethality of AP / Rending since 8th edition which got more lethal in 9th edition where often times a 3+ save doesn't matter when you're facing huge volley's of shots with AP-2 or AP-3 which for some armies was relatively easy to put out. This in turn led to band-aids like Armour of Contempt and Invul proliferation for better or worse. Thankfully we are seeing an AP drop across the board in the 10th previews and I am hopeful that a 3+ Save will not be as easily circumvented. We shall see.

In Third Edition when the Sisters stat line was set up, shooting was far weaker than it is modern 40k even if you ignore AP entirely. You have an extra Bs, increased strength, more shots, rerolls and bonuses to wound coming out the ears. Plus special weapons are vastly cheaper.

So your ten man tactical squad would have a few bolters, maybe a plasma gun and a lascannon if you wanted to spend crazy points. So your armour would protect you from bolts shells and you’d lose a few people to special weapons. The danger would be getting overmatched in close combat and that toughness allowing marine to shrug off return bolter fire.

Now, your Intercessor squad has double the number of shots, hitting on 2 plus, can get bonus rerolls and all that stuff we have to look forward to. That is vastly more firepower than any third edition Space Marine unit. Whilst Sisters are exactly the same durability and points cost.

Give an example. I did a game against Tau, they just got a few stratagems and characters. Those pulse rifles just chewed up any Sisters unit they shot at. Same game in 3rd those pulse rifles would be doing a fraction of the damage because you couldn’t hurl all these boosts at them.

AP is not the only place damage is coming from.

This is by intent. They want to make the game more exciting so that when you roll dice you’re always impacting the game. Problem is Sisters are either overcosted or the profile seriously needed looking because it’s as easy to kill them as it was in 3rd edition.

You keep referring for stuff they get in future and current point costs. That's just fallacity. You either refer current rules and points or future rules and points.

Anything else and you admit for being dishonest arqument and just interested in causing trouble.

tneva82 wrote:
You keep referring for stuff they get in future and current point costs. That's just fallacity. You either refer current rules and points or future rules and points.

Anything else and you admit for being dishonest arqument and just interested in causing trouble.

Cute.

I’ve seen enough to know where the winds going. Damage is still absurdly high. Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better. Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines. Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

Everything they put out just confirms that they’re doubling down on this stupid idea that the Sisters of Battle Intercessors should be in same bracket because “ohhh 3 plus armour” and that giving them a Centurion from Heresy’s profile is just a little added extra.

It’s stupid and it just means people will carry on taking weird sisters lists that have two lots of five sisters because they’re overcosted.

So no, I am going to list precedents like points cost. A Sister of Battle with a bolt gun should be a third the points cost of an Intercessor.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

tneva82 wrote:

Except he says 3+ is irrelevant even when ap is 0. Ie you saving on 3+.

Guess anything but 2++ rr1's is irrelevant

Oh I missed that part

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

I had the same thought. While I was reading a few of the previews I was thinking to myself I'm glad they've included a few tweaks here and there that benefit taking larger squads.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Damage is still absurdly high.

Which has ZERO effect on 1 wound models.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better.

I'm away from my dexes right now, but I don't believe this to be true as written. I think you're still talking about the BS 4 on multimeltas, but marine BS went up on their heavy weapons as well- and as people have tried to explain to you half a dozen times, those changes have no functional effect on the game at all, because the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone in 10th, and there is now a new bonus to firing them when you stand still. You need to acknowledge in this thread that you understand this and stop being a troll.

If you genuinely don't understand that, tell us, and everyone who hasn't already tried to explain it will try in different words until you get it. Because WE all get it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but combat patrol is a completely different game. Data cards are different in at least some of the examples we've seen, we've been told that points values are likely to be different too.

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

A bigger squads more likely to take battle shock tests because it would have models left. If a 5 sister unit was actually targeted it would die; people rely on hiding them out of LOS. Also sisters morale going down means your large squads more likely to fail those tests.

A rule where you have to be losing the game to get special rules doesn’t seem very good.

MSU is too strong. It’s a way of exploiting the game. You pay same points for extra map control and effective damage protection by overkill. No downside to it at all for a unit you just want to secure objectives. Plus, it just does not suit the character of the Sisters army at all. So it’s not a trade off. People will carry on with their map control and now Faith dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Damage is still absurdly high.

Which has ZERO effect on 1 wound models.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better.

I'm away from my dexes right now, but I don't believe this to be true as written. I think you're still talking about the BS 4 on multimeltas, but marine BS went up on their heavy weapons as well- and as people have tried to explain to you half a dozen times, those changes have no functional effect on the game at all, because the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone in 10th, and there is now a new bonus to firing them when you stand still. You need to acknowledge in this thread that you understand this and stop being a troll.

If you genuinely don't understand that, tell us, and everyone who hasn't already tried to explain it will try in different words until you get it. Because WE all get it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but combat patrol is a completely different game. Data cards are different in at least some of the examples we've seen, we've been told that points values are likely to be different too.

Damage as in number of dice, rerolls etc etc

Morale got worse for sisters. Marines got an extra attack, extra shot on the bolter, BS5 if they stand still and can advance and fire. You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Snugiraffe wrote:
But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they?

They aren't. The whole point of the 5-strong SoB squad is to be a cheap, disposable unit you can just throw around for whatever (scoring objectives or in this case generating Miracle Dice) so even if they get knocked out (Battleshock) then you just get another one to do the thing, and they are never buffed with anything anyway because they are like cheerleaders for the army rather than actual players. A 20-strong unit is just more expensive, less disposable due to the point sink, and more unwieldy - it has literally zero advantage for the role it is supposed to fulfill over 4 5-strong units. Maybe if you are thinking about using the unit for actual combat, but I can't see why would you ever think about that.

Unfortunately one of the problems with a long drawn out creeping reveal.

No one really knows what anything actually is but it promotes speculation only countered by "wait and see eveythng is fine" (until its not then its too late)

None of the Marines boosts are bad but they might be if they are not pointed well and GW and balance...sheesh...it ain't gonna happen

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'm a little unimpressed with Acts of Faith mostly in the production of miracle dice. Comparing it to some of the other similar abilities its just harder to apply. It's got both the "Control Objectives to trigger full value" and "Doesn't automatically affect everyone" issue. I mean Daemons have to control objectives for more value, but it affects everyone. Marines don't have to control objectives but 3 out of 5ish turns means it doesn't affect everyone. Sisters appear to have been hit with both. Have to wait and see, but it doesn't look good.

Getting ~50 MD per game looks unimpressive to you ? Its way better than a reroll because you already know what you will get.

Not sure where you're getting 50. One per turn, one per Sister Squad(s) on an objective on your turn - assuming a 50/50 3 of 6 objectives for five turns (even being on three turn 1 Command Phase is unlikely) is 15 plus 10 for 25. Beyond that you're either in a laugher or you're losing squads which means those lost squads aren't getting to use your dice. There's certainly more to see, but their mechanic looks more painful than Doctrines, Dark Pacts, etc.

Did you read the preview ? You get 1 each players turn, thats 10. Then you get 1 for each objective marker you hold with battle sisters. Lets say thats about 13 (your home marker and two in no mans land from turn 2 onwards). Then you get 1 for each friendly unit killed by the enemy. Thats 5-10 more. Whenever a simulacrum unit kills an enemy unit, you get 1. There are 5 sisters units currently which have the simulacrum ability. Lets say those kill 5-10 enemy units, thats 5-10 more. Add those up and you get to 33-43 dice. Thats just from the preview, im pretty sure there will be more ways to gain miracle dice. Cherubs will let you get rid of 1s and 2s you roll, because you immediately get one more dice.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Spoiler:

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

A bigger squads more likely to take battle shock tests because it would have models left. If a 5 sister unit was actually targeted it would die; people rely on hiding them out of LOS. Also sisters morale going down means your large squads more likely to fail those tests.

A rule where you have to be losing the game to get special rules doesn’t seem very good.

MSU is too strong. It’s a way of exploiting the game. You pay same points for extra map control and effective damage protection by overkill. No downside to it at all for a unit you just want to secure objectives. Plus, it just does not suit the character of the Sisters army at all. So it’s not a trade off. People will carry on with their map control and now Faith dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Damage is still absurdly high.

Which has ZERO effect on 1 wound models.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better.

I'm away from my dexes right now, but I don't believe this to be true as written. I think you're still talking about the BS 4 on multimeltas, but marine BS went up on their heavy weapons as well- and as people have tried to explain to you half a dozen times, those changes have no functional effect on the game at all, because the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone in 10th, and there is now a new bonus to firing them when you stand still. You need to acknowledge in this thread that you understand this and stop being a troll.

If you genuinely don't understand that, tell us, and everyone who hasn't already tried to explain it will try in different words until you get it. Because WE all get it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but combat patrol is a completely different game. Data cards are different in at least some of the examples we've seen, we've been told that points values are likely to be different too.

Damage as in number of dice, rerolls etc etc

Morale got worse for sisters. Marines got an extra attack, extra shot on the bolter, BS5 if they stand still and can advance and fire. You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Combat Patrol is a non-issue. The current CP boxes were not designed with the new CP rules in mind, so we can't draw any conclusions from their contents. I'm fairly sure the entire mode was dreamed up by the money men, not the designers, to try to sell the CP boxes.

Damage is going down compared to 9th. The general reduction in -1AP is good evidence of that. Comparing anything to 3rd seems bizarre, especially when you simultaneously use Intercessors as a yardstick, who didn't even exist until 8th. 3rd was over 20 years ago now. Penitent asks a good question about your assertion over BS. Do you understand that BS for Heavy weapons didn't get worse for Sisters, in practice?

Almost everything you've said is looking through the lens of 9th edition (or, for some reason, 3rd). 10th is going to be a big rests in many ways. Even just your comment about MSU being too strong not to utilise may not be correct now. In fact, Sisters seem to have incentives to take a mix of MSU and larger squads due to the Miracle Dice generation and Martyrdom rules.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

In a straight bolter fight? The Sisters get to wash the AP on the bolt rifle so the marine gets the advantage on wounding, but then when those two Sisters can get into RF range they have twice the shots. A basic intercessor in melee is only marginally more scary.

And if we were to imagine one of those Sisters dying and counting for half strength that remaining Sister now triples her output.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unfortunately one of the problems with a long drawn out creeping reveal.

No one really knows what anything actually is but it promotes speculation only countered by "wait and see eveythng is fine" (until its not then its too late)

None of the Marines boosts are bad but they might be if they are not pointed well and GW and balance...sheesh...it ain't gonna happen

Indeed. It's also worth noting that the SM one is probably the most powerful we've seen so far, but also the most limited since it only applies to a single enemy unit per turn. Their detachment bonus is similar - powerful but not useful all the time. CSM, on the other hand, get lesser buffs, but across the entire army if they want.

Anyone declaring a faction broken or useless at this stage has no idea what they're talking about, and can be safely ignored. The fact Totalwar1402 was doomsaying well before the SoB reveal already calls into question any of their subsequent conclusions.

 Dysartes wrote:
On the flip side, the Marine can then declare Oath of Moment on the SoBs...

Unless it's round 5 this would likely never happen, which makes the +1 hit and +1 wound for Sisters way more impactful.

Slipspace wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Spoiler:

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

A bigger squads more likely to take battle shock tests because it would have models left. If a 5 sister unit was actually targeted it would die; people rely on hiding them out of LOS. Also sisters morale going down means your large squads more likely to fail those tests.

A rule where you have to be losing the game to get special rules doesn’t seem very good.

MSU is too strong. It’s a way of exploiting the game. You pay same points for extra map control and effective damage protection by overkill. No downside to it at all for a unit you just want to secure objectives. Plus, it just does not suit the character of the Sisters army at all. So it’s not a trade off. People will carry on with their map control and now Faith dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Damage is still absurdly high.

Which has ZERO effect on 1 wound models.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better.

I'm away from my dexes right now, but I don't believe this to be true as written. I think you're still talking about the BS 4 on multimeltas, but marine BS went up on their heavy weapons as well- and as people have tried to explain to you half a dozen times, those changes have no functional effect on the game at all, because the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone in 10th, and there is now a new bonus to firing them when you stand still. You need to acknowledge in this thread that you understand this and stop being a troll.

If you genuinely don't understand that, tell us, and everyone who hasn't already tried to explain it will try in different words until you get it. Because WE all get it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but combat patrol is a completely different game. Data cards are different in at least some of the examples we've seen, we've been told that points values are likely to be different too.

Damage as in number of dice, rerolls etc etc

Morale got worse for sisters. Marines got an extra attack, extra shot on the bolter, BS5 if they stand still and can advance and fire. You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Combat Patrol is a non-issue. The current CP boxes were not designed with the new CP rules in mind, so we can't draw any conclusions from their contents. I'm fairly sure the entire mode was dreamed up by the money men, not the designers, to try to sell the CP boxes.

Damage is going down compared to 9th. The general reduction in -1AP is good evidence of that. Comparing anything to 3rd seems bizarre, especially when you simultaneously use Intercessors as a yardstick, who didn't even exist until 8th. 3rd was over 20 years ago now. Penitent asks a good question about your assertion over BS. Do you understand that BS for Heavy weapons didn't get worse for Sisters, in practice?

Almost everything you've said is looking through the lens of 9th edition (or, for some reason, 3rd). 10th is going to be a big rests in many ways. Even just your comment about MSU being too strong not to utilise may not be correct now. In fact, Sisters seem to have incentives to take a mix of MSU and larger squads due to the Miracle Dice generation and Martyrdom rules.

Right, what do you think is the reasonable points costs for both those models?

Going back to third helps show how the Sisters units durability hasn’t changed in 20 years. But firepower and all these new units like Intercessors has skyrocketed. Yet they remain a similar points cost.

Yes, you get the same ballistic skill with that weaker multi melta as you did before. On a unit more likely to fail Battle shock. Whereas marines got double shots, heavy, can advance and fire. Extra attack baked in. Whilst Sisters lose all their sacred rites.

It’s barely changed I think you’re buying into the marketing if you think it’s a reset.

The larger units are likely to be sacresanct and Repentia whilst your objective campers are your little troops tax. That’s exactly what we have now and what I am complaining about.

ERJAK wrote:
You're wrong for a couple of reasons.

1. is that multimeltas are only 18" range now. Retributors will be moving every turn. Even with the Martyrdom bonus, you'll never be hitting on better than 3s.
2. The martyrdom bonus is mediocre and will almost never be relevant. Even if there IS significantly reduced lethality, that'll just means sisters squads are only being overkilled by 5 wounds instead of 15. Especially because the 3+ save means we don't benefit from cover (essentially).

Another big problem is that sisters guns top at S10. Infantry weapons cap at S9. That means even against rhinos, we're looking at 4s to hit 4s to wound for our now pitifully 18" range multimeltas. Compare that to the Lascannon that still wounds rhino chassis vehicles on 3s AND starts at BS 3+.


Obviously, this doesn't mean we'll be bad as a faction and points are 100% still the main determining factor, but they've shown off literally ALL of our guns and they all suck. Sisters were a melee army in 9th and they're doubling down on that here. Which is totally fine! Being a melee army is perfectly good!

I just wish people would stop pretending that martyrdom matters and the changes to heavy weapons doesn't

I think the heavy consideration to be made is that the MM is no longer the be-all end-all. Meltaguns are going to be pretty useful as will HBs. We'll have to wait for the Retributor sheet to truly understand what MM can do for Sisters.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Spoiler:

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rules that encourage taking minimum size squads which is gamey and silly.

But the rules are also encouraging you to take maxed-out squads, too, aren't they? Your Battle Sisters aren't going to generate those extra dice if they're not holding an objective, so you want to avoid taking battleshock tests. Plus, of course, the whole +1 to wound thing being a lot better on 5 Sisters than on 2.
All the while, the benefits inherent to MSU are still there, so what you have is a trade-off situation – interesting, impactful choices are better game design, right?

A bigger squads more likely to take battle shock tests because it would have models left. If a 5 sister unit was actually targeted it would die; people rely on hiding them out of LOS. Also sisters morale going down means your large squads more likely to fail those tests.

A rule where you have to be losing the game to get special rules doesn’t seem very good.

MSU is too strong. It’s a way of exploiting the game. You pay same points for extra map control and effective damage protection by overkill. No downside to it at all for a unit you just want to secure objectives. Plus, it just does not suit the character of the Sisters army at all. So it’s not a trade off. People will carry on with their map control and now Faith dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Damage is still absurdly high.

Which has ZERO effect on 1 wound models.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Sisters profile got worse. Marines got better.

I'm away from my dexes right now, but I don't believe this to be true as written. I think you're still talking about the BS 4 on multimeltas, but marine BS went up on their heavy weapons as well- and as people have tried to explain to you half a dozen times, those changes have no functional effect on the game at all, because the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is gone in 10th, and there is now a new bonus to firing them when you stand still. You need to acknowledge in this thread that you understand this and stop being a troll.

If you genuinely don't understand that, tell us, and everyone who hasn't already tried to explain it will try in different words until you get it. Because WE all get it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Saying that combat patrols are balanced when they have same models as marines.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but combat patrol is a completely different game. Data cards are different in at least some of the examples we've seen, we've been told that points values are likely to be different too.

Damage as in number of dice, rerolls etc etc

Morale got worse for sisters. Marines got an extra attack, extra shot on the bolter, BS5 if they stand still and can advance and fire. You really want to tell me that model is still worth 11 points and an Intercessor 18 points.

Yes, I am sure they’re going to make Sisters 3 attacks and 2 wounds for combat patrol and they won’t just be tweaking and tucking a few things. 🙄

Combat Patrol is a non-issue. The current CP boxes were not designed with the new CP rules in mind, so we can't draw any conclusions from their contents. I'm fairly sure the entire mode was dreamed up by the money men, not the designers, to try to sell the CP boxes.

Damage is going down compared to 9th. The general reduction in -1AP is good evidence of that. Comparing anything to 3rd seems bizarre, especially when you simultaneously use Intercessors as a yardstick, who didn't even exist until 8th. 3rd was over 20 years ago now. Penitent asks a good question about your assertion over BS. Do you understand that BS for Heavy weapons didn't get worse for Sisters, in practice?

Almost everything you've said is looking through the lens of 9th edition (or, for some reason, 3rd). 10th is going to be a big rests in many ways. Even just your comment about MSU being too strong not to utilise may not be correct now. In fact, Sisters seem to have incentives to take a mix of MSU and larger squads due to the Miracle Dice generation and Martyrdom rules.

Right, what do you think is the reasonable points costs for both those models?

I don't know. I have no way of knowing. Neither do you. That's the whole point. We've seen snippets of units, weapons and army rules without even 10% of the full picture so we can't draw any conclusions yet.

Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


So no, I am going to list precedents like points cost. A Sister of Battle with a bolt gun should be a third the points cost of an Intercessor.

well maybe it is!

Now shut up until points are revealed

Asmodai wrote:Space Dwarf preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-the-leagues-of-votann/

"Conversion" is a new weapon keyword that we haven't seen before.

Also, they sneaked in Critical Hits, confirming that 'Critical' works on things other than wounds