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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because Sisters shouldn’t have 5 model units being objective counters. Sisters of battle should, like in the art, have blocks of infantry that move onto an objective and mean the enemy has to invest in shifting them off. It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

So marines get bolter discipline baked in but sacred rites and anti psychic saves go? Plus keeping their -1 AP, getting advance and fire and the heavy key word to hit on 2 plus if they stay still. Intercessors should be 3 times more expensive than a Sister of Battle if you’re going to keep heaping bonuses on them.

It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Blocks are useful for Sisters. Units dying get you dice. Units that are wounded get you more effective units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
I didn't even see the BS thing. There's really no point in bringing guns with sisters.

If you say so, but you'll be able to hit on 2s often.

 JNAProductions wrote:


And for all we know, an Intercessor IS three times as expensive as a Sister. They could be four times as expensive, or twice, or a hundred times. We don't know yet.

Could you please not be giving GW any strange ideas.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Good, it’s not totally exploitable. It still encourages you to spend the same points to have 4 times the number of objective and miracle dice instead of one block on a single objective.

It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Very dramatic. Pound for pound Sisters can kick the crap out of Intercessors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Good, it’s not totally exploitable. It still encourages you to spend the same points to have 4 times the number of objective and miracle dice instead of one block on a single objective.

It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Very dramatic. Pound for pound Sisters can kick the crap out of Intercessors.

11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

The Mira le dice are per objective, they don’t generate more from having a second or third unit on that objective.

At this point I’m annoyed by everything about 40k rules and there isn’t much to gain from anything about the them. On this one point it is just one miracle die per objective though.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

The Mira le dice are per objective, they don’t generate more from having a second or third unit on that objective.

At this point I’m annoyed by everything about 40k rules and there isn’t much to gain from anything about the them. On this one point it is just one miracle die per objective though.

Fine, it’s still an incentive for people to get four times the objective potential, effective protection from damage by overkill, being easier to hide and this new bonus; for free.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Your ballistic skill hasn't gone down. Your sisters still hit on the same 3+ with their heavy weapons if they don't move and 4+ if they do and there may be a generic stratagem to make an infantry unit count as stationary even if it moves. That's the same as it is now just instead of a -1 when moving it's a +1 for standing still.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

Can I see your source that these points values are staying the same in 10th edition?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Your ballistic skill hasn't gone down. Your sisters still hit on the same 3+ with their heavy weapons if they don't move and 4+ if they do and there may be a generic stratagem to make an infantry unit count as stationary even if it moves. That's the same as it is now just instead of a -1 when moving it's a +1 for standing still.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

Can I see your source that these points values are staying the same in 10th edition?

Combat patrols.

Sisters have similar models to the Chaos Marine box. This suggests they’re staying in the overpriced margin of being roughly the same price instead of getting a massive cut in points. Which at that nerfed profile they should. I mean I just noticed they gave them Guard leadership as well because of course they have. Making taking units of 20 of them even more unviable. 11 points is vastly over costing that 3 plus armour save. Especially when for 18 points I can get twice as many at a higher toughness with a more lethal opponent.

You can’t have it both ways. Either Sisters are marine lite or they’re a horde army. Marine players want to have the best units in the game but not pay the points for them and be told they can bring less models to a game. If your unit is three times better, you pay three times as many points.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

...two SOB have the same number of wounds as one Intercessor, put out the same number of shots (though without the AP) at 24", and double the shots at 12". I think they're one attack down in melee, and will hit at one less S (and WS, apparently), but I think this comes down to the dice - it is nowhere near as clear-cut as you're trying to present it.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

...two SOB have the same number of wounds as one Intercessor, put out the same number of shots (though without the AP) at 24", and double the shots at 12". I think they're one attack down in melee, and will hit at one less S (and WS, apparently), but I think this comes down to the dice - it is nowhere near as clear-cut as you're trying to present it.

Plus the SoB can benefit from Miracle Dice to ensure a save. It’s a native rule, and one you can’t simply ignore.

On the flip side, the Marine can then declare Oath of Moment on the SoBs...

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Your ballistic skill hasn't gone down. Your sisters still hit on the same 3+ with their heavy weapons if they don't move and 4+ if they do and there may be a generic stratagem to make an infantry unit count as stationary even if it moves. That's the same as it is now just instead of a -1 when moving it's a +1 for standing still.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

Can I see your source that these points values are staying the same in 10th edition?

Combat patrols.

Sisters have similar models to the Chaos Marine box. This suggests they’re staying in the overpriced margin of being roughly the same price instead of getting a massive cut in points. Which at that nerfed profile they should. I mean I just noticed they gave them Guard leadership as well because of course they have. Making taking units of 20 of them even more unviable. 11 points is vastly over costing that 3 plus armour save. Especially when for 18 points I can get twice as many at a higher toughness with a more lethal opponent.

You can’t have it both ways. Either Sisters are marine lite or they’re a horde army. Marine players want to have the best units in the game but not pay the points for them and be told they can bring less models to a game. If your unit is three times better, you pay three times as many points.

Combat Patrol is going to be a different game to standard 40k. If we look at the contents of the Combat Patrol boxes with 40k lenses on, then yes they do seem a bit odd at times. However as GW have shown the rules for each of those Combat Patrols is different to what one is used to in 40k.

So, it is not prudent to use Combat Patrol as a way to guess points cost for standard 40k.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

...two SOB have the same number of wounds as one Intercessor, put out the same number of shots (though without the AP) at 24", and double the shots at 12". I think they're one attack down in melee, and will hit at one less S (and WS, apparently), but I think this comes down to the dice - it is nowhere near as clear-cut as you're trying to present it.

It is that cut and dry.

By giving a marine two wounds and two attacks that’s just two space marines put together. If you just gave them the extra attack and wound you should be looking at that kind of point increase they have already. Never mind all the over exponential boosts they get across the board.

The bolt rifle in 9th is better than a bolter because is has the AP and bolter discipline means you’re getting two shots as well.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

The Mira le dice are per objective, they don’t generate more from having a second or third unit on that objective.

At this point I’m annoyed by everything about 40k rules and there isn’t much to gain from anything about the them. On this one point it is just one miracle die per objective though.

Fine, it’s still an incentive for people to get four times the objective potential, effective protection from damage by overkill, being easier to hide and this new bonus; for free.

No, it isn't. One unit camps an objective: I get 5 vp and a miracle die. Five units camp the same objective: I get 5 vp and a miracle die.

That's it.

The BSS card that we saw today didn't indicate maximum unit size; if memory serves, in 8th it was 20 and in 9th it was 15. So let's tell the story of 20, 15 and 5, assuming I'm using the Hallowed Martyrs Detachment:

With a unit of 20 sisters, as soon as one dies, the other 19 get +1 to hit on ANY and every attack, whether shooting or melee, with any weapon against any and every enemy for the rest of the game. Once they lose 11 models, the other 9 get +1 to wound on every attack melee or shooting, with every weapon against every enemy for the rest of the game. And if I attach a character or two that buff the unit? That's 20 models boosted.

At 15, the advantages aren't as strong - I'm only going to get 14 shots at +1 to hit, 7 shots at +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and only 15 models will benefit from attached characters.

At 5 models? You might as well not have a detachment ability at all- you're only getting 4 shots at +1 to hit, two at +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and at most you'd be buffing 5 models by attaching a character.

Literally the only reason to attach a character to a 5 woman unit is if that unit is Dominions, because then the character gets to hitch a ride in the Doms' Immolator where she can benefit from the scout move that the Doms grant their Immo.

Incentivized yet? You should be.

Oh, and by the way, stop saying Intercessors get extra range, because in 10th, they don't.

And when you talk about doctrines, don't pretend that marines get all three abilities for every turn of the game; they don't. They can use each doctrine ONCE, and only ever one per turn (actually a side-grade from 9th, and some might even argue a downgrade).

The Blood of Martyrs will absolutely take the Pepsi challenge with Doctrines... And if unit size is 20 in 10th and you build your army for Martyrdom, I think Blood of Martyrs is ABSOLUTELY the better detachment ability.

Folks complaining about the Heavy Bolter BS… you know it’s the same net result for BS4+ with a +1 for staying still in 10th as the previous BS3+ with -1 if you move?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because Sisters shouldn’t have 5 model units being objective counters. Sisters of battle should, like in the art, have blocks of infantry that move onto an objective and mean the enemy has to invest in shifting them off. It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

So marines get bolter discipline baked in but sacred rites and anti psychic saves go? Plus keeping their -1 AP, getting advance and fire and the heavy key word to hit on 2 plus if they stay still. Intercessors should be 3 times more expensive than a Sister of Battle if you’re going to keep heaping bonuses on them.

It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Blocks are useful for Sisters. Units dying get you dice. Units that are wounded get you more effective units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
I didn't even see the BS thing. There's really no point in bringing guns with sisters.

If you say so, but you'll be able to hit on 2s often.

You're wrong for a couple of reasons.

1. is that multimeltas are only 18" range now. Retributors will be moving every turn. Even with the Martyrdom bonus, you'll never be hitting on better than 3s.
2. The martyrdom bonus is mediocre and will almost never be relevant. Even if there IS significantly reduced lethality, that'll just means sisters squads are only being overkilled by 5 wounds instead of 15. Especially because the 3+ save means we don't benefit from cover (essentially).

Another big problem is that sisters guns top at S10. Infantry weapons cap at S9. That means even against rhinos, we're looking at 4s to hit 4s to wound for our now pitifully 18" range multimeltas. Compare that to the Lascannon that still wounds rhino chassis vehicles on 3s AND starts at BS 3+.


Obviously, this doesn't mean we'll be bad as a faction and points are 100% still the main determining factor, but they've shown off literally ALL of our guns and they all suck. Sisters were a melee army in 9th and they're doubling down on that here. Which is totally fine! Being a melee army is perfectly good!

I just wish people would stop pretending that martyrdom matters and the changes to heavy weapons doesn't

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Folks complaining about the Heavy Bolter BS… you know it’s the same net result for BS4+ with a +1 for staying still in 10th as the previous BS3+ with -1 if you move?

Thin end of the wedge mate. Next they’ll be taking armour down to 4 plus. They’re already giving them worse bolters and worse morale.

Also, it is a nerf if they decide to not give this to every other army in the game. If marines get BS5 which Intercessors do BTW that’s not exactly balanced. That would just be a “your power armour doesn’t work see”. The fact every space marine has a character profile for 18 points isn’t already under costed and silly enough as it is.

They are not going to cost marines appropriately and as long as killing a 2 wound marine is the standard for firepower, that’s going to hurt an army of overpriced T3 1W models.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Folks complaining about the Heavy Bolter BS… you know it’s the same net result for BS4+ with a +1 for staying still in 10th as the previous BS3+ with -1 if you move?

Heavy bolters genuinely are exactly the same as they were. No problem there. It's Multimeltas that are...not quite as good.

Considering that was 99.99% of an SoB shooting phase, it just means they're doubling down melee. Which is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Folks complaining about the Heavy Bolter BS… you know it’s the same net result for BS4+ with a +1 for staying still in 10th as the previous BS3+ with -1 if you move?

Thin end of the wedge mate. Next they’ll be taking armour down to 4 plus. They’re already giving them worse bolters and worse morale.

Also, it is a nerf if they decide to not give this to every other army in the game. If marines get BS5 which Intercessors do BTW that’s not exactly balanced. That would just be a “your power armour doesn’t work see”.

They are not going to cost marines appropriately and as long as killing a 2 wound marine is the standard for firepower, that’s going to hurt an army of overpriced T3 1W models.

See this genuinely isn't correct. The only difference between old heavy bolters and new ones is that movement used to be a penalty, now staying still is a reward.

Exactly the same rule, just seen from a different direction.

Look I’ll be back here with the points because I already know they’re not going to cost these units correctly.

They’ve clearly got the idea that that armour save is the highest value item on the model and all the other profile boosts. Doubling wounds, doubling attacks, str, t, bonus BS on the gun; that’s all really cheap for the Intercessor.

Being a Horus Heresy player. That is pretty much a centurion stat line with less war gear and a pip less WS. So a fifty point model is being pushed as line infantry for one faction.

It will need to be around 7-8 for Sisters and 25 points for a marine. If they make Sisters fifteen points or something dumb like that because they overvalue the armour save and make the Intercessor 22 points they’re just trying to keep army sizes equivalent.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Folks complaining about the Heavy Bolter BS… you know it’s the same net result for BS4+ with a +1 for staying still in 10th as the previous BS3+ with -1 if you move?

Better, even- unless I'm misremembering, Sustained Hits means two hits on a roll of 6. That means a heavy bolter hitting on 4+ with doubled 6s averages 0.67 hits, and at 3+ averages 0.83 hits.

So the heavy bolter has gotten a buff, just with the BS rejiggered a bit to fit with how Heavy works now. Seems to me like they're trying to 'flatten out' the weapon options and make the heavy bolter the peer of multimeltas and lascannons, not the 'cheap option'.

Edit: Also in the context of Intercessors vs Sisters, I have to point out that said shiny new heavy bolter mulches both of them equally well. The extra T and extra W don't do anything against mid-S, multi-damage weapons, and that's always been the weakness of W2 Marines. Intercessors will win straight-up slugfights against most infantry; it's not a fair comparison.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Look I’ll be back here with the points because I already know they’re not going to cost these units correctly.

They’ve clearly got the idea that that armour save is the highest value item on the model and all the other profile boosts. Doubling wounds, doubling attacks, str, t, bonus BS on the gun; that’s all really cheap for the Intercessor.

Being a Horus Heresy player. That is pretty much a centurion stat line with less war gear and a pip less WS. So a fifty point model is being pushed as line infantry for one faction.

It will need to be around 7-8 for Sisters and 25 points for a marine. If they make Sisters fifteen points or something dumb like that because they overvalue the armour save and make the Intercessor 22 points they’re just trying to keep army sizes equivalent.

To be fair, battle sisters don't matter. They've never been relevant to the strength of the army and I doubt that's going to start with 10th.

Regardless of points, you'll never take more than 2 minimum units of BSS anyway. None of their guns matter because no one will ever take them, their statlines don't matter, their points costs don't matter. Ballistic skills, save, toughness, weaponskill, attacks, blood of martyrs, even the simulacrum, none of that matters.

The only two things that matter are 1. Cherub. 2. Defenders of the Faith. Every sisters of battle army will take exactly 2 units of battle sisters to act as miracle dice batteries on the 2 easiest to secure objectives. They will pay for themselves 100 times over in that capacity. Don't give them upgrades, don't pay for extra bodies, just collect the extra miracle dice to spend on your good units.

By maximizing our resources, I would bet good money that Sister's of Battle's close combat units will more than make up for the fact that we can't shoot our way out of a wet paper bag.

Wow. All this angst over the Sister of Battle Preview has me puzzled. Here is what I see:

Acts of Faith: It is awesome that they retained the Miracle Dice mechanic into 10th Edition and it is the Faction Rule. Best version of the faith rules IMHO. I like that they eased up on the rules a bit while simplifying them. No Phase limits on gaining dice. No one unit per phase limit on using dice. Only two basic ways to gain also keeps it simple.

The big downside is that 1's are pretty much useless except for Martyring models/units. I suppose you can also churn them out with Cherubs. 2 will be useful in Hallowed Martyrs Detachment since a Meltagun or Exorcist Missile Launcher hitting on 2's will not be an uncommon occurrence.

The Blood of Martyrs: A nice and simple upgrade to the Martyred Lady Order Conviction. Increased Hit once you take any damage in a unit and increased Wound below half Strength could be considerable bonus. Will definitely encourage larger units to allow you to take casualties and gain maximum benefits (like hitting on 2s with Meltaguns).

Triumph of Saint Katherine: That is looking pretty nice. An 18 Would Leader model? I wonder who they can join?

Battle Sister Squad: Pretty much a straight porting over of the unit from 10th Edition. Interesting changes which I am sure will be felt by many a unit in many a faction: Meltaguns are not Assault; 18" Range on Multi-Meltas. I love Defenders of the Faith and the new SI Wargear Rule. This unit should have a place in your army if priced correctly.

Exorcist Weapons: Looking pretty good compared to 9th Edition. Conflagration Rockets with Blast, Heavy, Ignores Cover, and Indirect Fire while having 3+ BS. This model will rain death on any light Infantry unit in the game no matter where they hide. Lose one Wound, don't move, and you are hitting Indirect Targets on a 2+!

The Exorcist Missile Launcher isn't taking a nap either. S10 means it wounds Light Tanks on a 3+ and Medium Tanks (like the Gladiator) on a 4+. AP -2 is better than a Battlecannon (even if a far fall from the days of AP1 Melta missiles) and will be great for breaking Heavy Infantry. I do expect the Castigator battle cannon will be doing the job of heavy tank destroyer for the faction.

Morvenn Vahl's Lance of Illumination: She's no Primarch, but it hits like a Master-crafted Thunderhammer or make a good number of quality low strength attacks. The only real complaint is it isn't better than before, but it isn't for smashing vehicles either.

Rejoice the Fallen: Now there is a nice stratagem. Don't plink away at a descent sized Sisters squad you are abound to charge. You are inviting some holy retribution!

Overall, I am pleased with what I've seen so far. There is lots to see, especially points values and what happened to the Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma. A kitted 10-model Battle Sisters Squad better be close to the same cost as 5 kitted Intercessors or there will be issues.

You know, all this talk of Battle Sisters squads and the like has me idly curious how viable mechanized sisters will be. If their Rhinos end up basically the same as Marine Rhinos, that means 2 fire points you can have your special/heavy weapons fire out of from comparative safety while rolling up the battlefield. Its not like a bog standard bolter is the primary damage dealer of the squad.

Obviously too soon to tell, but then again half the talk in this thread has been that.

 kurhanik wrote:
You know, all this talk of Battle Sisters squads and the like has me idly curious how viable mechanized sisters will be. If their Rhinos end up basically the same as Marine Rhinos, that means 2 fire points you can have your special/heavy weapons fire out of from comparative safety while rolling up the battlefield. Its not like a bog standard bolter is the primary damage dealer of the squad.

Obviously too soon to tell, but then again half the talk in this thread has been that.

I could see mech lists being okay. You still struggle with having no meaningful way to interact with anything higher than T9, but you'd at least have a lot more opportunity to shoot.

You wouldn't put BSS in the rhinos though. They're WAY more useful generating miracle dice.

ERJAK wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Look I’ll be back here with the points because I already know they’re not going to cost these units correctly.

.

To be fair, battle sisters don't matter. They've never been relevant to the strength of the army and I doubt that's going to start with 10th.

Regardless of points, you'll never take more than 2 minimum units of BSS anyway. None of their guns matter because no one will ever take them, their statlines don't matter, their points costs don't matter. Ballistic skills, save, toughness, weaponskill, attacks, blood of martyrs, even the simulacrum, none of that matters.

The only two things that matter are 1. Cherub. 2. Defenders of the Faith. Every sisters of battle army will take exactly 2 units of battle sisters to act as miracle dice batteries on the 2 easiest to secure objectives. They will pay for themselves 100 times over in that capacity. Don't give them upgrades, don't pay for extra bodies, just collect the extra miracle dice to spend on your good units.

By maximizing our resources, I would bet good money that Sister's of Battle's close combat units will more than make up for the fact that we can't shoot our way out of a wet paper bag.

They’re literally the iconic unit in the army.

Every army in general should be built around its troops in any system and in general. If that’s not happening the games broke and isn’t working. But for Sisters specifically that’s much more the case. The idea or fantasy of the army is a fanatical horde of these fanatics singing to the God Emperor as they launch procession of fire. Not, a small elite strike force that uses small elite units to deliver knockout blows. Again, that’s Eldar and SoB should not play like Eldar.

Hmm, looks awkwardly at the 100 he’s got across two armies. Looks back to you.

I am interested in enjoying the game. That doesn’t mean I come 1st in a tournament. That means I can pick the army I like and have a decent run in a friendly game with my mate. That means not having 20 blocks of overcosted Battle Sisters mown down or cut to pieces by cheaper units.

Like to me it’s a bad thing that you have a mechanic that pushes players towards getting as few troops and using them to camp objectives as well as 20 models.

Oh I think the close combat units will be fine. They seem to be keeping the glass cannon. Not sure how points and if they’ll remember vehicles are really tough now. Hopefully the Castigator makes up for that.

The other unit I am curious about is Paragons. Judging by most of the codex this does feel like they won’t change too much which is a shame because they’re in a weird place durability wise and eye wateringly expensive.

ERJAK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because Sisters shouldn’t have 5 model units being objective counters. Sisters of battle should, like in the art, have blocks of infantry that move onto an objective and mean the enemy has to invest in shifting them off. It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

So marines get bolter discipline baked in but sacred rites and anti psychic saves go? Plus keeping their -1 AP, getting advance and fire and the heavy key word to hit on 2 plus if they stay still. Intercessors should be 3 times more expensive than a Sister of Battle if you’re going to keep heaping bonuses on them.

It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Blocks are useful for Sisters. Units dying get you dice. Units that are wounded get you more effective units.



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ERJAK wrote:
I didn't even see the BS thing. There's really no point in bringing guns with sisters.

If you say so, but you'll be able to hit on 2s often.

You're wrong for a couple of reasons.

1. is that multimeltas are only 18" range now. Retributors will be moving every turn. Even with the Martyrdom bonus, you'll never be hitting on better than 3s.
2. The martyrdom bonus is mediocre and will almost never be relevant. Even if there IS significantly reduced lethality, that'll just means sisters squads are only being overkilled by 5 wounds instead of 15. Especially because the 3+ save means we don't benefit from cover (essentially).

Another big problem is that sisters guns top at S10. Infantry weapons cap at S9. That means even against rhinos, we're looking at 4s to hit 4s to wound for our now pitifully 18" range multimeltas. Compare that to the Lascannon that still wounds rhino chassis vehicles on 3s AND starts at BS 3+.


Obviously, this doesn't mean we'll be bad as a faction and points are 100% still the main determining factor, but they've shown off literally ALL of our guns and they all suck. Sisters were a melee army in 9th and they're doubling down on that here. Which is totally fine! Being a melee army is perfectly good!

I just wish people would stop pretending that martyrdom matters and the changes to heavy weapons doesn't

Oh how dare they have a different opinion than you!

 Jidmah wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Not being able to score at all, even uncontested, with 0 OC means battle shock is going to be critical, and also means if immunity to it stays, those units will be head and shoulders above the rest.

Rip plague marines I guess.

In my opinion, if synapse isn't making stuff immune to battle shock, nothing is.

That said, I don't understand your comment about plague marines, can you please explain?

Beyond that I see too many mechanics triggered/triggering off Battle Shock for anything to have an immunity. Immunity to Battleshock also means immunity to much of the Daemons army rule.


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 p5freak wrote:
Sisters

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/10/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-adepta-sororitas/

I'm a little unimpressed with Acts of Faith mostly in the production of miracle dice. Comparing it to some of the other similar abilities its just harder to apply. It's got both the "Control Objectives to trigger full value" and "Doesn't automatically affect everyone" issue. I mean Daemons have to control objectives for more value, but it affects everyone. Marines don't have to control objectives but 3 out of 5ish turns means it doesn't affect everyone. Sisters appear to have been hit with both. Have to wait and see, but it doesn't look good.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Good, it’s not totally exploitable. It still encourages you to spend the same points to have 4 times the number of objective and miracle dice instead of one block on a single objective.

It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Very dramatic. Pound for pound Sisters can kick the crap out of Intercessors.

11 points for a Sister of Battle

18 point for that intercessor gets you double the wounds, double the attacks, extra WS, extra strength, extra toughness, longer range gun, ap on said gun.

Theyre pretty much in the same points bracket but ones stupidly better than the other. There is a reason people just use the to get special and heavy weapons in the army or take other units. If you got two sisters of Battle with bolters they would lose to an intercessor. Just the attacks and wounds alone do that. Never mind all the other free stuff you get without any justification.

For one you quote 9e points. Last i checked we don't know 10e points.

Double wounds also doesn't double durability in 40k. Aos yes, 40k no.(assuming no unrevealed huge change but as it was played on fest one would assume such a core change would have leaked)

Breton wrote:

I'm a little unimpressed with Acts of Faith mostly in the production of miracle dice. Comparing it to some of the other similar abilities its just harder to apply. It's got both the "Control Objectives to trigger full value" and "Doesn't automatically affect everyone" issue. I mean Daemons have to control objectives for more value, but it affects everyone. Marines don't have to control objectives but 3 out of 5ish turns means it doesn't affect everyone. Sisters appear to have been hit with both. Have to wait and see, but it doesn't look good.

Getting ~50 MD per game looks unimpressive to you ? Its way better than a reroll because you already know what you will get.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Combat patrols.

You realize right cp points ain't same as main game points?