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I'm writing this post after reading all the that went on at the 'Ard Boyz tournaments. There is no rule or gaming situation that is not covered in the 40k rule book. If in doubt, roll a D6. I've used this rule many times before, it solves all arguments, speeds up the game, takes the emotion out of it. What's the problem?

I'm there to play games, enjoy, and then afterwards kick back with a beer with my mates, and new mates I've found during a tournament. I was in the middle of a game at a tournament, I hadn't lost for 36 games in a row at this type of tournament over the course of 3 years, I'm well known in the UK at this tournament. My opponent and I were in dispute over the mission, having both been told different versions of it (won't go into details) so we called the organiser over to clarify. The mission went against me, making it impossible for me to win that game, or even get a draw, because I'd been given the wrong brief. So I set about having a good time instead and lost with grace. Afterwards, sat and had a beer with my opponent / organiser / mission briefer, and life is too short to start bitching.

I had an opponent that was seriously competitive, and if I really thought about it, I could have won hands down. But, the F1 racing was on in the bar next door, I was in a good mood, and thought if I let this guy get competitive, he'll bitch, we'll have a crap game. So I agreed with him before any dice was rolled that we'll log this as draw with equal points before we started. All the pressure was gone, we had a top game.

If your playing cards or Monoploy and loose, you don't get hacked off or bitch, but stand round a table with toys, and suddenly its ego's and toys thrown out the pram time.

Why is winning so importent, that people will go to any lengths to ensure that win. Bitching and moaning just alienates yourself from fellow gamers in my opinion. Its a hobby, its supposed with be a way of relaxing and enjoyment.

I wont try to sugar coat this , so i'll get straight to the point.
to you ,

TheSecretSquig wrote:Its a hobby, its supposed with be a way of relaxing and enjoyment.

but as clearly seen on legoburner's poll there is just as much other type of players out there.

Now , just like people take painting so seriously when they laugh at primer armies ,
there will be gamer that take games so seriously as well.

I think thats a fair way of putting it :/

of course there can be other factors , but i thought its only fair for a direct comparison.

Also think about what you are comparing your analysis too...Ard boyz is a tournament. Of course the players are going to be competitive. They are there to win.

I've no issue with people taking it seriously, I'm asking why do people start throwing their toys out the pram when they are in dispute over the rules....

Roll a D6 - problem solved.

Personally, I'd much rather loose and enjoy a beer afterwards, than to win by being ultra competitive, and alienate myself. If no-one likes you, you've no one to have a beer with afterwards!!!

TheSecretSquig wrote:I've no issue with people taking it seriously, I'm asking why do people start throwing their toys out the pram when they are in dispute over the rules....

Roll a D6 - problem solved.

Personally, I'd much rather loose and enjoy a beer afterwards, than to win by being ultra competitive, and alienate myself. If no-one likes you, you've no one to have a beer with afterwards!!!

Because during any given dispute , both side really believe they are "right" and to roll a die over it may seem unjustified.

Thats like having a paint competition rolling D6 to determine a winner instead of getting into the technicality of paint skills and such...

Because winning in a tournament actually means something more? I'm just guessing here, but I guess tournaments are where the WAAC players congregate. Not saying that all tournament players are like that, but WAAC players wouldn't be welcomed at local stores since they would be dubbed TFG - so they have to go to tournaments since that is where they can do all the toy throwing and not get ignored.

That's my interpretation of things anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or just go with Luna. I think she phrased what I was trying to say much more eloquently.

TheSecretSquig wrote:I'm asking why do people start throwing their toys out the pram when they are in dispute over the rules....

Tiny little babies playing with toys get angry at the drop of a hat... they are more commonly referred to as TFG.

My question is why do you care? Throw the bugger out on their butt, and enjoy your games; competitive or no a douche-bag is a douche-bag, and they should be treated accordingly.

Seriously though, there are very few issues worth getting THAT angry about, whether or not you think it is fair. Close-minded to say the least, eh?

I will explain this is in pictures as well .









You are surprised by this how? It is a game of dice, not a matter of life and death on anyone's account.

TheSecretSquig wrote:There is no rule or gaming situation that is not covered in the 40k rule book.

You can't be serious? How long have you been playing this game, or any wargame for that matter?

TheSecretSquig wrote:If in doubt, roll a D6.

That's not always a solution, and is often a copout.

TheSecretSquig wrote:...it solves all arguments...

It pushes arguments under the rug at best, and leaves resentment in the person who was determined to be 'wrong' because the dice said so. It only gets worse when that person, after the game, finds out that they were right.

TheSecretSquig wrote:...speeds up the game...

Debatable.

TheSecretSquig wrote:...takes the emotion out of it.

No. It doesn't.

TheSecretSquig wrote:I was in the middle of a game at a tournament... I had an opponent that was seriously competitive...

Anecdotal information without any real substance...

TheSecretSquig wrote:...but stand round a table with toys, and suddenly its ego's and toys thrown out the pram time. Why is winning so importent, that people will go to any lengths to ensure that win. Bitching and moaning just alienates yourself from fellow gamers in my opinion.

You are simplifying this so badly. Yes, there are people who will throw tantrums and get all egotistical on you, but you're attempting to colour everyone with the same brush. Don't.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Its a hobby, its supposed with be a way of relaxing and enjoyment.

Don't presume to tell anyone how or for what reasons they should enjoy their hobby.

TheSecretSquig should have wrote:I'm there to play games, enjoy, and then afterwards kick back with a beer with my mates but I realize not everyone goes to tournaments for those reasons, and will therefore deal with any behaviour I don't condone with grace and civility instead of forum complaints.

There, I fixed it.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Subject: Why do people get so Emotionally attached to having to win?

a typical human fallibility. Connecting one's successes to one's self-esteem. Get used to it, it's an extremely ubiquitous set of beliefs.

Also, you're complaining about behaviour that, in fact, has nothing to do with 40k, and everything to do with poorly behaved asshats. I've met plenty of "WAAC" or "ultra-competitive" players who were as personable and enjoyable to play with as can be, who simply come to play their best.

It starts to bother me when people dump on the pursuit of victory. Seriously? There is absolutely no player in 40k who truly does not care, every game, if they win or lose. Otherwise, why not just take the absolutely worst army you can possibly come up with, purely to lose in as spectacular a fashion as you can if it doesn't matter to you? Too many people want to win without looking like they want to win, if you ask me.

Well, some people just get really competitive about things, and honestly, I don't see why not.

Yes, there are TFG's out there, but for every TFG at the tourney, I'd like to think that there are at least 5 regular players. Not all tournaments are full of super-whiny TFG's, but not all Tourney players are TFG.

Plus, think about how much the investment is to not only get into a tournament, but the investment of buying and painting the miniatures, and the investment of time to paint them. Some people hope that if they win, they can earn that time back by winning.

Some people speak about Tourney's like they're some kind of Taboo, which I find as sad. I'd like to enter a tournament sometime, and I'll be glad to play a game against TFG if it means I can win, or more importantly, have fun at the tourney.

So, Luna, why do you defend these people?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:...but stand round a table with toys, and suddenly its ego's and toys thrown out the pram time. Why is winning so importent, that people will go to any lengths to ensure that win. Bitching and moaning just alienates yourself from fellow gamers in my opinion.

You are simplifying this so badly. Yes, there are people who will throw tantrums and get all egotistical on you, but you're attempting to colour everyone with the same brush. Don't.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Its a hobby, its supposed with be a way of relaxing and enjoyment.

Don't presume to tell anyone how or for what reasons they should enjoy their hobby.

Totally agree with you HMBC. I am a hobbyist/painter not a gamer. If I go to a fricking shark pit of a tournie like 'ard boys I better "bring it" to respect my opponent. I may not like his approach to the game but I am entering his realm of the hobby. I expect him to bend to my way of playing if we are having a friendly so why shouldn't I show the same respect. I don't understand why we cannot recognize our differences and adapt. Is it really that hard?

Competitive and being a dick are not the same thing. A drive to be the best and to win also doesn't make you a dick. Some of the most competitive players I have met are awesome people who couldn't be nicer as they stomp your ass and if you stomp theirs they tend to be just as gracious.

I swear most of the problems are cause by different levels of understanding of rules - many hobbyist/ painters understanding of the rules is ahem often sketching and therefore our tactics aren't always the best. Playing a highly competitive person has a tendency to emphasis those weakness and us hobbyisy/painters have a trouble accepting that we aren't as good as we think we are.

Yes, I have made broad assumptions but then it is difficult not to when talking about a large number of people.

EDIT: for quoting entire post and being told off by hmbc because I am a bad bad person.

Thanks for quoting my entire post. I'm sure that was necessary.

fullheadofhair wrote:Competitive and being a dick are not the same thing.

A fact so easily forgotten.

fullheadofhair wrote:Some of the most competitive players I have met are awesome people who couldn't be nicer as they stomp your ass and if you stomp theirs they tend to be just as gracious.

And, conversely, some of the biggest card-carrying 'Casual Gamers' couldn't be ruder or more arrogant jerks if they tried. It's the reason I invented the 'Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia', as a way to lampoon the idiocy of those who would claim either some sort of imaginary elitist moral high ground because they don't play at tournaments and/or those that try to impose their views on how the hobby (in general) should be enjoyed.

warpcrafter wrote:So, Luna, why do you defend these people?

Because im a bad person , thats what you wanted to hear right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thanks for quoting my entire post. I'm sure that was necessary.


quote]

Drinking lots of beer whilst posting - not thinking - prostrate myself before you for forgiveness :-D

HMBC - I've been playing the game for +20yrs now thankyou. I've won UK organised tournaments (not GW ones - I won't enter them because of the toys out the pram attitude).

Seeing as rolling a D6 is the basis of deciding the outcome of the entire game, why can't it be used to decide the outcome of a rule or situation that neither of you can agree on with the appropriate rule book or codex? Hence my statement of "There is no rule or gaming situation that is not covered in the 40k rule book. If in doubt, roll a D6."

I freely admit, I am a painter first, gamer second. I have taken crappy units to the table, because they themed with my army well fluff wise and were imaculately painted, rather than the army of death. For me bragging rights of winning at all costs are nothing compared to the social "that was a great game, lets geta beer!".

I'm not trying to stereotype anyone, but in my +20yrs of experience, more competitive tournament players than none, try to bend the rules, or throw their toys out the pram, when things are not going as they planned.

You roll a D6 for the outcome of everything in the game, If all your cheese marines roll 1's to hit in front of a line of Orks, do you get emotional about it? But rolling a D6 to decide the outcome of a GENUNE unknown in the rules will.

Playing for 20 years and you think that there's no situation that the rules don't cover? Ok...

And there's no need to get defensive - you started this remember. I was simply responding to your very broad brush strokes/black & white appraisal of the situation - which I find to be false.

I mean, with statements like this one:

more competitive tournament players that none, try to bend the rules, or throw their toys out the pram, when things are not going as they planned.

Which amounts to:

"Most Tournament Gamers chuck hissy fits and try to cheat when not winning."

That's patently false, and I'm sure a lot of people here would find that quite insulting.

So I'd ask you to stop making such broad blanket statements. They are false and meaningless.

Judge A , i really like the painting skill of this mini

Judge B, i really like the theme of this mini

Judge C , i really like the color selection of this mini.


How should we settle who get slayer sword?

Roll a D6!

*Tilts head

H.B.M.C. wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:I was in the middle of a game at a tournament... I had an opponent that was seriously competitive...

Anecdotal information without any real substance...

HBMC - Please don't edit the contents of my post to suit your own argument - The above quote is cobbled together from several different sentances in my Original Post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Judge A , i really like the painting skill of this mini

Judge B, i really like the theme of this mini

Judge C , i really like the color selection of this mini.


How should we settle who get slayer sword?

Roll a D6!

*Tilts head

Painting is not judged by the role of a dice. The game is however.....

TheSecretSquig wrote:
Painting is not judged by the role of a dice. The game is however.....

No but the purpose to decide something that way is unfavorable for players especially when their head is dead set on they are right.

To them its just as random and unacceptable if they were to choose a painter randomly.

See what im trying to say?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I mean, with statements like this one:

more competitive tournament players that none, try to bend the rules, or throw their toys out the pram, when things are not going as they planned.

Again, you edit the post to suit your own argument, you left out the bit before the quote that said "IN MY EXPERIENCE". I did not state most competitive gamers cheat, I said in my experience . . . . . . . . . .

If you are going to quote me, quote what I type, not what you require to aid your argument. Can we get back on topic now?

a typical human fallibility. Connecting one's successes to one's self-esteem. Get used to it, it's an extremely ubiquitous set of beliefs.

+1.

There are people out there who have been told all during their formative years that "Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing." and other similar things.
Like most things (true or not), if they are told it often enough, they WILL start to believe it.

I've not had the misfortune to play against any of them for the last 17 years (I wasn't playing tourneys for 16 of them though). I think if I do, I'll play to the best of my ability and if I lose, so be it. They'll get hit on sports if they're a dick.

If it happens, it happens. They're only a couple of beers away from blessed forgetfulness.

Lemme take you back, way back, to 2nd ed WH40k.

I was an eldar player back then (back before I discovered the joys of purest green), one of my regular opponents was one of my best friends (smurfs player), he took a land raider, he never takes a land raider but he did. I took 2 D cannons, cos I loved the fluff. Well, my scatters dice were kind and the template for one of the Ds landed on the front quarter of the tracks, comfortably 2/3rds of the template landed on the left track of the landraider.

Well, the rules for the D cannon were clear to me, if the template lands on a model, the model is removed from the table. The D cannon is a teleporter so the model is beamed into warpspace and removed from play. As far as I was concerned, this fluke was amazing! it landed on the intended target and the landraider was scrapped!

My opponent disagreed. Nope, it only landed on the track, so he would only accept track destroyed and no movement for the tank (still carrying it's full payload of lascannons, heavy bolter etc).

I was clear the rules said model is removed. He was clear the template only covered a part of the model.
We argued this rule for months afterwards and now, 12 years later, we still cannot agree on it.

Neither one of us could see the value of the opposing side's point of view. The abiguity on rules has not improved.
The arguments, even by people who are close friends, will continue for as long as people write rules for games, especially the vague rules we play this game by.

It's how you conduct yourselves in disagreeing that will mark you as a decent player with a strongly held point of view, or that fething guy who is seeking to exploit and manipulate.

LunaHound wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:
Painting is not judged by the role of a dice. The game is however.....

No but the purpose to decide something that way is unfavorable for players especially when their head is dead set on they are right.

To them its just as random and unacceptable if they were to choose a painter randomly.

See what im trying to say?

I do appreciate what you are saying, but if the referee has to vote for / against someone, so what's the difference between them making a call, and a simple role of a D6. If I'm playing against someone and they call the ref in to decide, straight away I'm on the defensive. If however, the attitude is, lets just roll a D6, its a more friendly atmosphere (In my experience HMBC).

TheSecretSquig wrote:
I do appreciate what you are saying, but if the referee has to vote for / against someone, so what's the difference between them making a call, and a simple role of a D6. If I'm playing against someone and they call the ref in to decide, straight away I'm on the defensive. If however, the attitude is, lets just roll a D6, its a more friendly atmosphere (In my experience HMBC).

TSS, i do understand what you are trying to say.
But what im ultimately trying to say is , you might feel relaxed letting it go because you naturally are a painter
and dont really care as much as player.

If today its the opposite , im not sure if the answer would be the same.

*Just easier to use you as example since its impossible to ask someone that doesnt exist ;D

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's how you conduct yourselves in disagreeing that will mark you as a decent player with a strongly held point of view, or that fething guy who is seeking to exploit and manipulate.

Hear Hear ! A man after my own thought! Although for the game, what did happen to the Land Raider? In all my tournament based games, I've never scored anything less than top marks for my Sportsmanship.

Luna - Back to the Painting thing. Just a side note, I was stood next to the Judges at a Forgeworld open day when they were deciding on the winner of Best painted Forgeworld Model. It was clear from the conversation, a Shadowsword had won, and clear from the people in the room looking at all the entries. That was until overheard was "but DKK is the army we are now pushing, and I designed that DDk baner trooper, so that should win". Low and behold, the DKK man won.

Competitiveness is something that should be prized and nurtured, but at a strict warning that it can turn nasty. TSS, you did the right thing in calling it off for a draw, and for a better game.

However, I run by if I (rarely) am in a competitive gaming environment, and I want to win, then I will endeavour to win by any means necessary on the field of conflict. As soon as we get on the table, whether it's with a friend or an acquiantance, it's game-heads on, but that doesn't have to mean being a prat.

sA

TheSecretSquig wrote:I do appreciate what you are saying, but if the referee has to vote for / against someone, so what's the difference between them making a call, and a simple role of a D6. If I'm playing against someone and they call the ref in to decide, straight away I'm on the defensive. If however, the attitude is, lets just roll a D6, its a more friendly atmosphere (In my experience HMBC).

I find a... strange disconnect within your argument Squig.

1. There is no rule or gaming situation that is not covered in the 40k rule book.
2. Roll a D6 in a dispute.

These two cannot co-exist.

If, as you say, the rules do cover ever gaming situation, then there should be no disputes. Or, to be more accurate, there should be no disputes that cannot be solved by looking at the rules and determining who is correct. If the rules do cover every situation, D6'ing it would actually run counter to that, as you're essentially saying "The rules cover this and by the rules, one of you is right and one of you is wrong, but to speed things up, just D6 it!"

D'you see the problem there? If the rules cover everything, why D6 anything other than to expedite the process or because you (or whoever) can't be bothered looking it up.

To that I would say the following:

There are disputes in this game over rules. If the rules covered everything there wouldn't be any disputes. Obviously there are, so the rules cannot cover everything. These two items are mutually exclusive. So if we make the assumption that the rules are not perfect and, in fact, can lead to disputes, then we have to look at ways of solving these disputes. The first port of call in any dispute over rules should be - you guessed it - the rules, and not an arbitrary dice roll that does nothing except delay the problem (the pushing under the rug I mentioned earlier). Then, and only then, when all rules sources have been exhausted (ie. the rule doesn't cover it or the rule is ambiguous or could be argued either way), should a dice be presented as a 'stop-gap' measure. And I say 'measure' as opposed to 'solution' as D6'ing it is not a solution.

Is that clearer?

Hmm...

TheSecretSquig wrote:Hear Hear ! A man after my own thought! Although for the game, what did happen to the Land Raider? In all my tournament based games, I've never scored anything less than top marks for my Sportsmanship.

The Land Raider died, about an hour and a half after the template landed, to the sounds of 'Well, if you have to take it so seriously' and 'If it matters so much to you over a game of soldiers' and so on, I just nodded and said 'Yes it matters, since it's dead', the rest of his smurfs fell after that, except a librarian termie with pyker hood and combat drugs and some other invulnerable save (so he had 2+armour, an invuln save, rerolls and combat drugs or something, my memory isn't clear on it). The chances of the D cannon landing on target like that were pretty slim, it was purest fluke and that should have been remembered. We are still best mates but still cannot agree on it, one of us will occasionally bring it up when we are both gakfaced drunk and have a humerous argument about it in a pub.

And I was still right.