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Howdy all. I am new to 40k, but not to look like such a newb; I have read rulebook several times over. My first army is Necrons. I have only played 2 games and won both. This issue pops up all over the place I noticed. Everyone seems to only read what they want and not the entirety of the rule description. I have codex here with me and new rulebook. BTW I have 2 rulebooks; one for traveling and one for home. On page 40 on the first bullet point second to last sentence it states "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." Now I know for a fact that codex overides rule conflicts. Yet there is no rule conflict because it clearly states "UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED", which could include expansions and codexes. On page 13 of the Necron codex in the We'll Be Back description, it states. "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its' side to show that it is damaged." I know and everyone agrees in my club that this counts counts as "UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED". The reason or fluff behind a unit getting swept can mean anything anyone wants it to mean; from running, hiding, left for dead, captured and wounded. It is in black and white on page 40. Funny thing is that my club wasn't allowing WBB rolls from sweeping advance because no one bothered to look in the codex and relied on forum posts rather that the rulebook and codex. I hope this helps and is and can be done in tourneys. There is no weird or unclarified rules here. It is simple and I for one could care less if a new necron book comes out anytime soon. I imagine my opinion will change once I suffer my first loss.

I tried looking at other threads but, they just started arguing their own interpretations. I really hopes this clears up a lot for necron players; people really seem to have a hate on for us I am starting to notice.

No, WBB does not work against SA. End of Discussion.

-Cries as the memories of the last thread resurface-

Why? I know this is a heavy topic everywhere, Space marines and I am sure other factions can overcome, counter or prevent it. I don't understand why soo many non-necron players fight it tooth and nail.

Wow has it been two weeks already/
Ok.
"no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Is WWB a special rule?
yes.
In WWB does it mention Sweeping Advance?
No it does not.

So sweeping advance removes the unit from play.

As a new player you may not know the history of these two rules.
In the 4th ed rules , which were the same except for the statement after "special rule , like WWB"
Specific codex rules can over-rule general BRB rules.
WWB does not have the specific rule to over-rule sweeping advance.

The funny thing is the two rules are the exact same word for word, other than the mention of WBB, yet people still claim it somehow works now >: (

jspyd3rx wrote:Why? I know this is a heavy topic everywhere, Space marines and I am sure other factions can overcome, counter or prevent it. I don't understand why soo many non-necron players fight it tooth and nail.

Because Space Marines Specifically say they can, like the rule says they have to. Necrons do not. Excuse us for wanting to play by the rules!

My understanding is that the necron codex was written along time ago and didn't need to specify sweeping advances because it was specified in the 4th edition rulebook. Now new rulebook is out and it is not in there; though it does state unless otherwise specified. The necron codex wasn't written for 5 edition, yet everyone knows codex overules big rulebook. Now is the unit counted as a casualty? If that necron unit is counted as a casualty; then it gets its' WBB roll if it meets the regular requirements for WBB like close similar unit or tomb spyder.

Gwar and seattle cover it precisely, reread what they have said. Its not about what WBB says, its about what sweeping advance says.


Sliggoth

jspyd3rx wrote:My understanding is that the necron codex was written along time ago

And? So were the Dark Eldar, Space Wolf and Inquisition codex's

The necron codex wasn't written for 5 edition,

See previous Comments

yet everyone knows codex overules big rulebook.

Wrong. Specific Overrides General. Also, Sweeping advance SPECIFICALY states Codex does NOT overrule Rulebook in that case.

Sliggoth wrote:Gwar and seattle cover it precisely, reread what they have said. Its not about what WBB says, its about what sweeping advance says.

To go into even more detail, its not what WBB says, it is what WBB doesn't say. WBB doesn't say it works against SA (Like ATSKNF does) so it doesn't. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a rules argument.

No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

WWB did not work in 4th, neither rule changed in 5th.
Why would it work now?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

40k != Real world. Live with it.

Sweeping Advance allows No special rule to save the model unless explicitly stated otherwise. Show me the explicit statement WBB, Please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jspyd3rx wrote:Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

So, you admit that WBB doesn't work then? Because under 5th edition rules, it doesn't. Coincidently, the wording is the exact same as 4th edition, but that doesn't matter.

It doesn't say "explicitly", it says "unless otherwise specified". I will and thank god my entire club now agrees it is specified in the necron codex since the unit is destroyed and does in fact count as a casualty and victory points.

jspyd3rx wrote:It doesn't say "explicitly", it says "unless otherwise specified". I will and thank god my entire club now agrees it is specified in the necron codex since the unit is destroyed and does in fact count as a casualty and victory points.

Congrats, your club are breaking the letter and spirit of the rules. Again, I ask you to please point out where it otherwise specifies that Sweeping Advance does not remove them. Or do you just ignore the part where it said "No Special Rule can save them"?

And if I may ask, why bother posting and asking for opinions if you are gonna turn around and say "Well, I don't care I play it like this."?

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

The rule:

The falling back unit is destroyed. [...] The destroyed unit is removed immediately.

Destroyed is close enough to "cease to exist". No where does it state to remove the swept models as casualties.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

The rule:

The falling back unit is destroyed. [...] The destroyed unit is removed immediately.

Destroyed is close enough to "cease to exist". No where does it state to remove the swept models as casualties.

If any unit in 40k is destroyed, killed, or otherwise removed from the game; it is a casualty as per the English definition of the word. I believe necrons are the only army that remain after they are destroyed or a casualty and laid down on their side until WBB rolls are made. This counts as "Unless otherwise specified", for that unit is considered a casualty. However a necron is squished or removed as a casualty; the codex says I get my WBB roll as long as similar buddies or tomb spyder are nearby. These count as "unless otherwise specified". I believe alot of players are holding on to old rules and doing their best to interpret to best suit their own needs. One of my best friends is an English teacher and I will ask him. It seems "Unless otherwise specified" really needs a faq note for necrons. Better yet, it seems I can email GW with rules questions. I will do that and if I am wrong. I will greenstuff a dress on one of my orks and play him. I will definetly post a pic of him or her in action.

jspyd3rx wrote:I believe alot of players are holding on to old rules and doing their best to interpret to best suit their own needs.

No, you are just trying to twist the rules to suit your needs.

Models are only ever removed as casualties in certain situations - usually shooting and assaults, and typically follows the rules on page 24. The phrase "remove as a casualty" isn't in the sweeping advance rules, so SA does not activate WBB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a thought experiment, think of the Death or Glory rules. A Necron Lord who manages to pry the battlecannon off of a tank shocking Leman Russ would be "destroyed" by the Death or Glory rules. In the dictionary definition of casualty, one could say your Lord is a casualty and thus removed. Would you get your WBB roll?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Models are only ever removed as casualties in certain situations - usually shooting and assaults, and typically follows the rules on page 24. The phrase "remove as a casualty" isn't in the sweeping advance rules, so SA does not activate WBB.

Your right it doesn't. It says "the destroyed unit". If any unit in your army is killed through any number of heinous and creative ways; it is destroyed(killed, incapacitated) or simply put= removed from the game and the board in any phase or turn. Necrons get to stay on their sides until the end of the turn to see if they qualify for WBB rolls. Again, any unit destroyed or removed from your army is a casualty of war.

They are indeed a casualty of war, but they are not removed as casualties. That is an explicitly defined phrase and only applies when a rule says to remove as casualties.

So what about Models hit by a Raaaaagh! from the SAK? Wounded Models are just Removed, not taken as Casualties. Would you argue Necrons get to WBB from that too?

This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

So, for example, I have 2 squads of Necron Warriors within 6' of eachother and 1 squad gets wiped by a sweeping advance the squad that got wiped by the sweeping advance CANNOT take WBB rolls to join the other necron squad standing next to it, correct?

Yes. The whole unit, and all models in it, is forever destroyed, as there is no specific immunity to sweeping advance in WBB.

To the OP:

Sorry, Dude, WBB does not save from Sweeping advance. The sweeping advance rule states that "no special rule" can save the sqaud at this point. WBB is definately a special rule.

Now, we all know that Codex>BRB, but that is only when the two actually disagree. In this case, for the Cron codex to >BRB, it would have to SPECIFCALLY state that WBB saves a unit from sweeping. Unfortunately, for NEcrons, their codex says no such thing, wherea the SMs have specific wording that keeps them from being swept.

This means that WBB deos not save a unit from sweeping advance. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.

SuperCow wrote:So, for example, I have 2 squads of Necron Warriors within 6' of eachother and 1 squad gets wiped by a sweeping advance the squad that got wiped by the sweeping advance CANNOT take WBB rolls to join the other necron squad standing next to it, correct?

This is 100% correct. Even if there is a Orb nearby, it doesn't help.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

LOL...every rules clarification email from GW states that it is NOT an official ruling....

The actual RULEBOOK is very clear on this..you just seem to want to ignore what it says, in this case.

jspyd3rx wrote:Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

Who do you think answers the Rules Question emails? Jervis?

Lol

They are answered by Box Packers, with no more authority than you or me. I'd take Dakka's word over some random guy any day.