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I believe other companies, who are producing some very nice miniatures or threatening to in the future are cutting themselves out of the chance to sell to those playing gw games but who would collect another company's mini if the look and scale was right. Produce your own rules for your own game and if you release them free on a pdf I will certainly take a look and try them, but if the mini's are good quality, why go larger or smaller than the benchmark and deny extra sales?

Make your futuristic space gladiators, but make them 28mm, you know how many you'll sell if you can use them as AdMec servitors and skitarii or lost and the damned or the basis for new slaaneshi chaos marines. Make your WW2 mechs, but make them to the scale I can loot em for blood axe dreadnoughts or Imp Guard sentinel stand ins.

By using a different scale you are denying yourselves sales and us conversion opportunities.

Where's all the 28mm Ancients armies used for WHFB?

Most GW players are pretty attached to official figures.

TBH, 28mm is a bad scale for modern/SF skirmish because of weapon ranges.

@ Meangreenstompa

You know, I totally disagree with you on this. Firstly, you're assuming that GW is the benchmark for all things table top wargame.....I don't believe it is. GW managed to carve a section out of this market for themselves, another company has to do the same thing.

What you're asking a potential company to do, is to make proxies for another wargaming system, instead of defining their own system and miniatures.....to an up coming company, this is a creative insult.

I wouldn't mind, but alot of the upcoming companies out there preoduce finer sculpts than GW, and some of the alternative systems are far more interesting than the WH40K setting!

In addition, you put forward the offer to these companies that if they produced a free PDF of their rules, you'd happily take a look....well, thats gracious of you! However, whats in it for them? Not to mention that GW doesn't produce a free PDF of its rules and codexes, so why should they?

I agree, it would be "useful" if there was a standard scale for wargaming miniatures, but I don't agree with your demands, or that the standard should be set by a company like Games Workshop......

Hardly a fair comparison Killkrazy, you can't convert many ages to look like Empire and Brets (ubiquitous middle ages) aren't popular at all. Although I've now been and taken a look at the Perry Miniatures site and I'm working out which samurai range would cnovert to which empire troop selections...


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Delephont wrote:@ Meangreenstompa

You know, I totally disagree with you on this. Firstly, you're assuming that GW is the benchmark for all things table top wargame.....I don't believe it is. GW managed to carve a section out of this market for themselves, another company has to do the same thing.

What you're asking a potential company to do, is to make proxies for another wargaming system, instead of defining their own system and miniatures.....to an up coming company, this is a creative insult.

I wouldn't mind, but alot of the upcoming companies out there preoduce finer sculpts than GW, and some of the alternative systems are far more interesting than the WH40K setting!

In addition, you put forward the offer to these companies that if they produced a free PDF of their rules, you'd happily take a look....well, thats gracious of you! However, whats in it for them? Not to mention that GW doesn't produce a free PDF of its rules and codexes, so why should they?

I agree, it would be "useful" if there was a standard scale for wargaming miniatures, but I don't agree with your demands, or that the standard should be set by a company like Games Workshop......

No, not demands, I'm sorry if this looked like some form of ultimatum. I'm suggesting that they are missing out on a chance to sell, too many of these indies are cropping up and then disappearing without a trace. I am not being gracious, simply put I doubt I can persuade my games circle to invest in another ruleset and armybooks, it's what's stopped us looking at warmachine/hordes or AT-43. If the rules were free and the company produced them in conjunction with the miniatures (which actually bring in the profit so we are told) then this would be a good idea for getting people interested, it would also enable living rulebooks to be updated with minimum fuss. This is not a demand, it just seems logical to produce to the same scale, since GW currently own the market, bringing folks in would often mean bringing them across.

The trick, in my opinion, for a company to succeed, is to break GW strangle-hold on the market. To do that, you have to offer something "more" than GW can!

Producing miniatures that allow GW gamers to add to or enhance their current addiction, only furthers GW cause, and further increases their hold on the market.....

Even thinking that GW owns the market, helps them to do so.

Still, I understand the amount of investment that goes into supporting a table top wargaming system, and once a group buys into one, especially in the current "climate", its gonna be hard to ween them onto something else......

One word: Battletech.
Try THAT in 28mm.

I honestly don't get it. There are masses and masses of 28mm figures out there, it's one of the most popular scales of miniatures. Much 28mm historical stuff is made by Wargames Foundry or Alternative Armies. And being 28mm is no guarantee of sucess, other companies producing games like Warzone (target games IIRC) and Raven (Harlequin) tried to take a slice of GW's pie and eventually went by the wayside.

Believe me, the companies producing scales other than 28mm, say 10mm or 15 mm are doing fine. They aren't catering for the GW players, they have their own markets.

The idea that these smaller companies should provide their rules and more free of charge to catch the eye of GW players is ludicrous. Sorry, but the wider hobby, outside of the White Dwarf pages, is a large diverse place with a lot of players. They don't need to bend over backwards to steal GW players. The majority of GW players hide in GW stores and don't see these miniatures anyway, that's a difficult market to cut into. Furthermore smaller companies don't have the profit margins to throw their rulesets around for free.

It's a truely odd mindset that some GW players think so highly of the mighty workshop that other companies need to lure them away with freebies. 'Fraid not. If you're really interested in these other games you'll get invilved in the wider hobby, go to wargames shows and see these products on sale and watch or take part in demonstration games. Buy some rulesets on spec and test the waters. Try buying the likes of Wargames Illustrated instead of White Dwarf for a few months. When you explore the wider hobby, they'll be out there pitching their stuff. But you can't expect them to come hoping to drag you out of Games Workshop.

64mas wrote:One word: Battletech.
Try THAT in 28mm.

I've tried it in 1/72 scale (with actual battlemech models in scale to each other and with vehicles and infantry) does that count?

Mechs used: Griffin (x2), Shadowhawk, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, Rifleman, Warhammer, Locust (x2), Stinger, an archer and marauder.

(admittedly, all were 1/72 models from their respective pre-battletech anime shows - Battle armour Dougram being one of the biggies after Macross).

There are what, 4 models available in 28mm?

64mas wrote:One word: Battletech.
Try THAT in 28mm.

http://www.timdp.members.sonic.net/battletech/

Some form of it must exist then.

You really gave my hopes up with that. I was excited thinking I'd be able to buy an 8" tall mech of my own, until I read at the top they stopped making them 2 years ago.

Some of the classic 'unseen' Battletech model kits are being reissued in Japan.

http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN953437
http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN953435
http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN956855

Back to the topic, There are several rulesets available as free downloads. Infinity do their basic rules. Star Grunt II. I think AT43 demo may be available.

There are advantages to smaller scales. The figures are cheaper and quicker to paint. You can either put more of them on the table, or have more realistic weapon ranges.

Well I get the smaller scale, having played Adeptus Titanicus a long time ago, but I don't get the larger scales, I get irritated when I keep seeing figures I really like and then realise they wont scale with what I already have. I guess it's not the drastic smaller or larger scales either, so not the Inquisitor size larger or the tiny Epic/Napoleonic scales, but the 25mm, the 30mm etc that leaves models 'just out' of sync with gw models.

i see your point stompa. Like in the display modelling world everybody produces 1/35th and 1/72nd. They are generally the benchmark scales. So your saying why cant other gaming companies start following a "standard"?
My opinion on this is that each company seems to remain seperate and seems to think that its mini's should only be used in thier system as to not dilute thier models into otehr games as proxies. Fair enough. But then they are only appealing to the hardline players of that game.
28mm models in GW can interchange with some conversion work and it increases sales.
Maybe other companies need to see that to increase sales you gotta either make something mind blowing and easily accessed OR start producing a standard scale of model.

BoW- John

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well I get the smaller scale, having played Adeptus Titanicus a long time ago, but I don't get the larger scales, I get irritated when I keep seeing figures I really like and then realise they wont scale with what I already have. I guess it's not the drastic smaller or larger scales either, so not the Inquisitor size larger or the tiny Epic/Napoleonic scales, but the 25mm, the 30mm etc that leaves models 'just out' of sync with gw models.

That's because GW make all their models in the exaggerated 'heroic' style (not LoTR so much.)

I don't know if that is a conscious marketing decision or just the result of years of scale creep.

The rest of the wargaming world doesn't have to conform to GW's styling. That said, a lot of models are fairly compatible.

AT43 and the Clix figures offer somewhat larger than GW models.

Most miniature companies will do 1/300 (or 5/6mm), 15mm and 25mm. These are the common 'standards'.

GW are using the non-standard size.

GZG doesn't care whether people use their minis or someone else's for their games. SGII stuff is available in 15/25mm, but works just as well in 28mm with GW figs. Naturally, they'd like you to use them, but you don't have to (which is why they do the 15/25. They're common enough).

The DBA/M people don't care whos minis you use as long as the scale is 'right'.

It's surprising to compare some other company's figures with modern GW.

Hasslefree figures are 28mm, but they are much thinner and more realistically proportioned.

Essex Miniatures were always a bit bigger than proper 25mm.

Games Workshop I believe was the pioneer of 28mm. Originally, they came up with this new scale as they entered the market. This was so people couldn't use other company's 25mm minis alongside GW minis, making themselves the only possible source of minis for their own games.

So its not "why don't other companies use GW's scale", its "why doesn't GW use other people's scale".

Since then however, due to the enormous popularity of GW, other people have started producing in 28mm. BUt GW really is the exception, not the norm. Even their own LotR range shows this.

That's not true.

I was around buying figures before Citadel got started. Their first ranges of figures (some of which I still have) where significantly smaller than the current 'heroic' figures.

I ought to set up a comparison photo of some of the figures.

They were 25mm back in the day and have indeed creeped up to larger. I was back at my father's house the other day and found an old kev adams orc (one of the crew of the man-mangler and he's only a fraction bigger than today's grots.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I honestly don't get it. There are masses and masses of 28mm figures out there, it's one of the most popular scales of miniatures. Much 28mm historical stuff is made by Wargames Foundry or Alternative Armies. And being 28mm is no guarantee of sucess, other companies producing games like Warzone (target games IIRC) and Raven (Harlequin) tried to take a slice of GW's pie and eventually went by the wayside.

Believe me, the companies producing scales other than 28mm, say 10mm or 15 mm are doing fine. They aren't catering for the GW players, they have their own markets.

The idea that these smaller companies should provide their rules and more free of charge to catch the eye of GW players is ludicrous. Sorry, but the wider hobby, outside of the White Dwarf pages, is a large diverse place with a lot of players. They don't need to bend over backwards to steal GW players. The majority of GW players hide in GW stores and don't see these miniatures anyway, that's a difficult market to cut into. Furthermore smaller companies don't have the profit margins to throw their rulesets around for free.

It's a truely odd mindset that some GW players think so highly of the mighty workshop that other companies need to lure them away with freebies. 'Fraid not. If you're really interested in these other games you'll get invilved in the wider hobby, go to wargames shows and see these products on sale and watch or take part in demonstration games. Buy some rulesets on spec and test the waters. Try buying the likes of Wargames Illustrated instead of White Dwarf for a few months. When you explore the wider hobby, they'll be out there pitching their stuff. But you can't expect them to come hoping to drag you out of Games Workshop.

You've made some very valid points here, its a shame your post has been largely ignored so that a side discussion of Battle-tech can take place.....I suspect this thread is going to be about how great GW is, and how everyone should dance in their light.

To the OP, if you feel GW is the centre of the gaming world, then you really should take some time to look around, maybe even join some clubs that play different games, life can be fun without the GW!

Delephont wrote:

To the OP, if you feel GW is the centre of the gaming world, then you really should take some time to look around, maybe even join some clubs that play different games, life can be fun without the GW!

I am not noted for having a very positive attitude towards games workshop. Perhaps you didn't take the time to read my response to your post in this thread, I have a circle of friends with whom I have been playing gw games for many many years, whilst I would like us to look at other games, neither they nor I can really justify embarking on spending for a new rules set after investing the better part of 20 years in the gw ones. We have gaming tables at our houses, I attended clubs in the past and don't really have the time to attend one now, if we get a game it's usually a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

I am somewhat annoyed by your post and insinuation and since you don't seem to get what I am talking about, I will reiterate it for you. GW holds the majority in thrall, if other modelling companies wish to sell their minis and not go out of business or continue to cling to existence AND deny gw a sale (something that would please me greatly) then I put it to them that producing 28mm heroic scale will empower the indy companies (something I believe is a good thing) and enable those already collecting and committed to gw rulesets to use other, better, sometimes even cheaper, models and support diversity within the hobby.

It is not arrogance that makes me ask this, it is a desire to see as many companies flourish as possible and see the monopoly gw holds on the market lessened or broken. Their profit is driven by the miniatures, not the rules, if other companies are producing alternative miniatures suitable for making warhammer armies, it will give those companies the power to build on instead of producing a range of 12 figures, a rulebook that no one invests in buying because none of their friends play and then the indy runs up debts, doesn't sell (except for the one mini with a powerarm that folks are buying to cut that arm off to use as a powerclaw in their 40k ork army...) and then the indy disappears, gw shrugs and puts the prices up again.

First, GW minis are not 28mm - they've been steadily increasing in size and are now substantially bigger than most other manufacturer's minis.

Secondly, GW does not have as big a slice as you seem to think. They do have the biggest slice but there are many small gaming companies out there.

Third, GW's rule systems as well as shop & tournie restrictions make proxy armies difficult. With so many options available to models, using other miniatures to represent a whole army while still having models and weapons be recognisable is pretty tough. As such, there isn't much to encourage companies to make models with the intention that they can proxy for GW mini's, especially since they cannot advertise them as such.

Why should other companies be trying to tempt you away from GW by giving away rules, etc? Personally, I think GW should be the first company to give their rules away as there are so many books required to have a complete set of rules (what's the total for 40K at the minute? 15?) whereas most other companies manage to keep all of the rules to one or two books.

The non-GW gaming companies don't need to beg customers from GW. There are lots of people who do not play GW games as well as people that play both.

I can see where the OP is coming from, but as many have pointed out although they have a large slice of the Sci Fi and Fantasy market, that is not all wargaming.

Even in their niche, GW's stranglehold is slowly being eaten away. Too many are not impressed by heroic 28mm's and want realistic proportions in their figures. Nevermind, their must use figure policy....

For one, I do not want to be tied to GW's scale. Victrix, Perry and others are producing beautiful 28mm plastics that beg to be bought. Eureka and Splintered Light have some lovely 15mm and 10mm sculpts and so on.

For skirmish games there has been an upsurge in 40mm and 54mm figures.

Ruleswise, lets be honest 40k is not the best written and is clunky compared to some other (often free) sets, do we still need IGO - UGO. So cut the strings go out and see what is out there, the waters lovely.

If I were to make my own game, I'd want 15mm human infantry and 20mm super-solidiers.

This would allow for in-scale vehicles and battlesuits, along with superheavies and giant robots to play more naturally on the gameboard.

Plus, ground scale on a 4x6' board would be more realistic looking.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I am not noted for having a very positive attitude towards games workshop. Perhaps you didn't take the time to read my response to your post in this thread, I have a circle of friends with whom I have been playing gw games for many many years, whilst I would like us to look at other games, neither they nor I can really justify embarking on spending for a new rules set after investing the better part of 20 years in the gw ones. We have gaming tables at our houses, I attended clubs in the past and don't really have the time to attend one now, if we get a game it's usually a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

I am somewhat annoyed by your post and insinuation and since you don't seem to get what I am talking about, I will reiterate it for you. GW holds the majority in thrall, if other modelling companies wish to sell their minis and not go out of business or continue to cling to existence AND deny gw a sale (something that would please me greatly) then I put it to them that producing 28mm heroic scale will empower the indy companies (something I believe is a good thing) and enable those already collecting and committed to gw rulesets to use other, better, sometimes even cheaper, models and support diversity within the hobby.

It is not arrogance that makes me ask this, it is a desire to see as many companies flourish as possible and see the monopoly gw holds on the market lessened or broken. Their profit is driven by the miniatures, not the rules, if other companies are producing alternative miniatures suitable for making warhammer armies, it will give those companies the power to build on instead of producing a range of 12 figures, a rulebook that no one invests in buying because none of their friends play and then the indy runs up debts, doesn't sell (except for the one mini with a powerarm that folks are buying to cut that arm off to use as a powerclaw in their 40k ork army...) and then the indy disappears, gw shrugs and puts the prices up again.

I'm not calling you arrogant.....and I totally understand the issue with the gaming group and the investment.....trust me!

The problem, as I see it, is that you've built yourself a cage, and each time you justify the cage you make it stronger and stronger! I have invested lots of wonga in GW, but I have so many issues with their products that I don't wish to invest anymore. I have the same issue you have, my gaming "group" isn't prepared to diversify either, but I see them, as in your case, as part of the cage!

Theres no way to avoid it, if you want to break free from GW and continue to enjoy the hobby, you're gonna have to take the plunge!

Contrary to what you seem to believe, breaking into a new gaming system needn't be as much as a financial drain as you suggest! £100 will get you into most systems, easily, its only a few systems that demand clone trooper levels of miniatures, most others are best played with smaller "men" on the field!

If you really want freedom from the dark tower, try out Star Grunt II, I'm sure someone else has mentioned it, its a free online PDF set of rules, and if you search there are others as well which come in free format! You can buy the Infinity rule bok for £20....and a starter pack for £22.50....even if you spend out to get one rule book and two starter packs, so you're friend can play along, its an £85 starting investment!!!

I'm willing to bet hard cash that in the next few months, you'll blow £100 on GW stuff in one form or another....and thats the problem, you're continuing to fuel your own imprisonment!!

The issue here is not that other companies need to worry about supplying gamers with a cheaper, better made alternative for use in GW games, the issue is gamers tying themselves into a system and being too affraid to cut the umbilical cord and stop suckling from the GW teet!

Surely the investment level (in cash) is even less for the scenario of a "GW hobbyist moving into Star Grunt II" (for example)?

I just did a quick search - it says Stargrunt is designed to represent generic sci-fi stuff in 25mm or 15mm scale. Well, I would confidently predict you could use 28mm models in it without the world ending.

So, if our hypothetical GW hobbyist wanted to get into Stargrunt, he could just download the rules and print them out (even if he went to Office Depot and paid for the printing, that isn't much) and then use GW figures as stand-ins. I'll bet it would work great with Guard or Eldar or Orks or even Chaos.

Darknight wrote:Surely the investment level (in cash) is even less for the scenario of a "GW hobbyist moving into Star Grunt II" (for example)?

I just did a quick search - it says Stargrunt is designed to represent generic sci-fi stuff in 25mm or 15mm scale. Well, I would confidently predict you could use 28mm models in it without the world ending.

So, if our hypothetical GW hobbyist wanted to get into Stargrunt, he could just download the rules and print them out (even if he went to Office Depot and paid for the printing, that isn't much) and then use GW figures as stand-ins. I'll bet it would work great with Guard or Eldar or Orks or even Chaos.

So new rules but using the figures I already have? Well, that's an idea but not really what the thread was about. I was asking why other companies insist on 10mm or 15mm or 20mm or 35 etc, just take a gaming standard (ie the one most people are introduced via) and roll with it.

Delephont wrote:
I'm not calling you arrogant.....and I totally understand the issue with the gaming group and the investment.....trust me!
The problem, as I see it, is that you've built yourself a cage, and each time you justify the cage you make it stronger and stronger! I have invested lots of wonga in GW, but I have so many issues with their products that I don't wish to invest anymore. I have the same issue you have, my gaming "group" isn't prepared to diversify either, but I see them, as in your case, as part of the cage!

Theres no way to avoid it, if you want to break free from GW and continue to enjoy the hobby, you're gonna have to take the plunge!

Contrary to what you seem to believe, breaking into a new gaming system needn't be as much as a financial drain as you suggest! £100 will get you into most systems, easily, its only a few systems that demand clone trooper levels of miniatures, most others are best played with smaller "men" on the field!

If you really want freedom from the dark tower, try out Star Grunt II, I'm sure someone else has mentioned it, its a free online PDF set of rules, and if you search there are others as well which come in free format! You can buy the Infinity rule bok for £20....and a starter pack for £22.50....even if you spend out to get one rule book and two starter packs, so you're friend can play along, its an £85 starting investment!!!

I'm willing to bet hard cash that in the next few months, you'll blow £100 on GW stuff in one form or another....and thats the problem, you're continuing to fuel your own imprisonment!!

The issue here is not that other companies need to worry about supplying gamers with a cheaper, better made alternative for use in GW games, the issue is gamers tying themselves into a system and being too affraid to cut the umbilical cord and stop suckling from the GW teet!

I hear you on the starting investments, now, here's the rub: As mentioned, I would be playing with a circle of friends that has existed for about 14 years, we have, over the course of those years, spend a very large amount of money. I cannot sit down with my friend who's army of ultramarines stretches over 10ft and 20 years of models and tell him 'never mind all that stuff, lets pick up another system'. It just won't cut it, we therefore have to play 40k...Buuutttt, I would love to play it, and fantasy, using entire armies constructed from indy companies, or larger ones, just not the great satan GW. I want to buy minis, I want to paint and use them in games, I am loathe to purchase from GW, a company I have grown to actively dislike due to it's ongoing insistence on trying to put it's fist up my arse.

I just got back from Gen Con Indianapolis and I can tell you GW (who didn't even show up) does not really lead the pack. They are masters of their domain, but from what I saw and the direction other companies were going, trying to fit their figures into the GW mold would just not help them at all.

There were so many other game companies there showing off their mini games I could easily not play another GW game for months if I tried out all of these other games. Rackham, privateer press, Fantasy Flight, wizards of the coast, etc. All had impressive displays and minis for sale, and judging by the number of people in line at the registers, they were not hurting.

Where GW is king, is in the massive big army scale. Where you drop down 50-150 models in a single game. All of these other games are much more skirmish based with maybe 15 models in the whole army. These were all very fun to play (those I could get to) and were done and over with in 30-45 minutes.

These games are much more assessable to the average gamer who doesn't need to carve out a 2 1/2 hour block to get a game in.

Of course, the challenge with the other skirmishes is that you'd have to buy several sets of "incompatible" minis, and the learn and play several sets of different rules.

Now, if the skirmish indies were to open source a common ruleset, that might be a positive step forward.

A friend and I once worked up some skirmish rules (10 figures a side or so, black ops versus aliens) and were playing using 25mm figures. (Stargrunt possibly? got them from Eureka). Really the figures were too small to distinguish easily across the table, what with having their weapons/etc to a realistic scale. May as well go down to 15mm at that point and not bother distinguising gear model by model. 25mm is just a crappy scale in general, a bad compromise.

The exaggerated 28mm figures work well across the table without being so big that you need a huge table. I also like exaggerated 28mm for playing D&D, since I normally use a battlegrid with 1" squares, heroic 28mm is about the biggest a medium sized monster can go on a 1" base.