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MeanGreenStompa wrote:I hear you on the starting investments, now, here's the rub: As mentioned, I would be playing with a circle of friends that has existed for about 14 years, we have, over the course of those years, spend a very large amount of money. I cannot sit down with my friend who's army of ultramarines stretches over 10ft and 20 years of models and tell him 'never mind all that stuff, lets pick up another system'. It just won't cut it, we therefore have to play 40k...Buuutttt, I would love to play it, and fantasy, using entire armies constructed from indy companies, or larger ones, just not the great satan GW. I want to buy minis, I want to paint and use them in games, I am loathe to purchase from GW, a company I have grown to actively dislike due to it's ongoing insistence on trying to put it's fist up my arse.

Why not use a new game system that allows your friend to continue to still use his Ultramarine models?

Darknight wrote:Surely the investment level (in cash) is even less for the scenario of a "GW hobbyist moving into Star Grunt II" (for example)?

I just did a quick search - it says Stargrunt is designed to represent generic sci-fi stuff in 25mm or 15mm scale. Well, I would confidently predict you could use 28mm models in it without the world ending.

So, if our hypothetical GW hobbyist wanted to get into Stargrunt, he could just download the rules and print them out (even if he went to Office Depot and paid for the printing, that isn't much) and then use GW figures as stand-ins. I'll bet it would work great with Guard or Eldar or Orks or even Chaos.

Actually, Stargrunt is a very interesting rule set for 40K players. The problem with 40K is that the range of model abilities is quite small. Plus, equipment is at least as important as ability and the range there is quite small also. So, a space marine isn't that much better than an ork or even a guardsmen. Certainly not as superior as is represented in the fiction.

Stargrunt supports a huge range of troop skill levels - elite troops are staggeringly better than basic troops. Plus, being built more around pschology, the things that make space marines or orks so dangerous can be represented properly. If you use SG2 rules to represent marines (which isn't difficult at all) they really are able to take on whole armies as is represented in the fiction.

Likewise, you can represent Orks well also. Less skilled than a regular trooper but they tend to get back up after being shot, don't stop for casualties, don't take prisoners in an assault and suddenly they're fearsomely good.

I would echo this, Stargrunt is a generic set of rules that in many ways is better than the official rules in representing 40k - perhaps because it has proper morale rules?. Others worth trying are 5150 (once you understand the reasoning behind the reaction system) and our current fave play, Alien Squad Leader.

Back to the original point about standardised sizes, this has always been driven by demand. When I started wargaming (many moons ago) your choice was simple 54mm or 20mm (Airfix) plastics. Most metals that followed were about 20mm but slowly this crept to a standard scale of 25mm, plastics stayed at 20mm.

Even, GW had no standard size, my Dark Future minis are definately 20mm and my RT figures a short 25mm.

There was an upsurge for 15mm twenty years ago and although popular I have noticed a return to 25/28mm, acknowledging the popularity of Flames of War. This coincideses with the arrival of the Perrys, Warlord and Victrix - their plastics are roughly equivalent to a 15mm metal in cost, if not cheaper).

Of course 6mm remains a scale of of choice for some and for the complete battle experience I have been know to indulge in 2mm gaming (yes you can see its a Sherman or a Tiger tank).

Another trend, gathering pace is the growth in "LittleWars" gaming returning to the classic 54mm sized figures.

It is not GW who dictate the market, but us wargamers buying what we like to see on the table.

I am always amused, when someone posts that we need to follow GW's lead, as I have found over the years that apart from their sometimes wonderful sculpts they are the most hidebound, conservative and stifling company in the market.

I suppose smaller companies want to do their own thing, as GW has a death grip on copyright etc. and smaller scales are neccersery as a lot of rulebooks are set to a measurement - like 36" range for a 28mm .30 cal wouldnt work with a 6mm .30 cal, and the models tend to be cheaper in smaller scales, which has to be good news for wargamers..

'So new rules but using the figures I already have? Well, that's an idea but not really what the thread was about. I was asking why other companies insist on 10mm or 15mm or 20mm or 35 etc, just take a gaming standard (ie the one most people are introduced via) and roll with it.'

but there are many gaming standards and a ton of awesome rules out there for historicals! I have both GW and lots of 28mm, 15mm and 6mm minis and they all have their advantages.

for instance, 6mm historicals are way cheaper and you can have hundreds of them for that massed effect. 15mm figs are small but more companies produce 15mm than anything else so you can shop around for the cheapest and best sculpted minis for whatever period/genre you're interested in.

face it man, historicals are cheaper and offer a lot more enjoyment than the GW/40k boxed in mentality. Most of these smaller companies could give a crap less about GW. They don't put out expensive rules and have all these dumb restrictions like GW. I like GW sculpts and own IG and Orks but GW isn't that cool of a company.

If you take off your blinders, you'll find a TON of fulfillment in smaller scales. if you shoot me a PM I'll give you links to some badass companies in smaller scales and links to cheap and good rules to use for them. Outside of GW, the focus is on the miniatures, rules come second. I believe you won't be disappointed.

Otto

I would give a kidney for a 15mm heroic scale ( ie wide but still 15mm) 40k.


15mm is just a sweet spot. It still allows for plenty of detail and requires less room etc...

Agreed. 15mm would be awesome, and allows for conversions / repurposing of existing 15mm stuff.

To get some idea of the potential of 6mm, look at my Napoleonic Russians (Painted by Reinforcements By Post.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/16317-Napoleonic%20Russian%20Kurassiers.html?w=600

6mm is also Epic 40k.

That is true, but sadly GW have effectively washed their hands of arguably the best rules system they have. What model support they give is grossly overpriced - see the tag on the SM Lander.

That said there are plenty of great companies producing excellent 6mm sci sculpts (for that matter for near modern) at much better prices - and that is for metals as opposed to plastics effectively over 20 years old design wise

Hollismason wrote:I would give a kidney for a 15mm heroic scale ( ie wide but still 15mm) 40k.


15mm is just a sweet spot. It still allows for plenty of detail and requires less room etc...

15mm Heroic scale is 18mm. some companies like AB, Fantassin and Grenadier Productions make 18mm figures. They're not THAT much bigger than 15mm, as both scales could be placed in the same unit and look cohesive.

Khurasan miniatures make sci fi that could be similar to 40k. So does Rebel Minis.

Otto

Ill check those out but yeah; 15MM is awesome.