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For Space marines, under the scout entry it says 1 scout may replace their weapon with a ML or Heavy bolter.

Can this item be given to the scout sergeant? Seems like it would be fine, but I wanted to make sure before I do it.

Timmah wrote:For Space marines, under the scout entry it says 1 scout may replace their weapon with a ML or Heavy bolter.

Can this item be given to the scout sergeant? Seems like it would be fine, but I wanted to make sure before I do it.

If it's anything like IG, the army list specifies what the Sergeant can exchange his weapons for and then goes on to list the upgrades that can be taken for the individual squad members. There are exceptions (Gunnery Sergeant Harkar, for example) but they are generally special characters.

Unless it's completely different for Space Marines, I would say no, you cannot.

DoW

All it says is:

"one scout may exchange their bolter for a missile launcher or heavy bolter"

Since a scout sergeant is a scout, I personally don't see a problem.

Yes, the sergeant also has the option to upgrade to different wargear also. I don't think it really conflicts though.

DoW is right about the IG figures and how to tell who can carry what and that is exactly how the SM codex lists it as well so you cannot. The only entry that should be confusing is the one that states that ANY model can take the following weapons, but then has seperate entries for both the normal scouts and then an entry for the sergeant as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timmah wrote:All it says is:

Since a scout sergeant is a scout, I personally don't see a problem.

No, a scout sergeant is a scout sergeant, not a scout. He has different stats and a different name. If you want to play him with scout stats then I would let you, but they are completely different figures.

Edit: I didnt mean for that to sound as snippy as it did so please dont take it as such.

It states any scout. So while a scout sergeant is different than a normal scout, its still a scout. Just like a terminator sergeant is still a terminator.

Unless you are saying that a terminator sergeant cannot exchange his LC's for a TH/SS. (which everyone does currently)

The Terminator example doesn't compare, as that entry says "any model".

The Scout entry has 3 sections:

a) Any model may replace his boltgun with...
b) Any Scout may replace his boltgun with...
c) The Scout Sergeant may replace his bolt gun and/or bolt pistol with...

So I think it's pretty clear that the sergeant can use kit from a) and c) and normal scouts can use kit from a) and b)...

For reference:

I realize FAQ's aren't rules but, in the DA faq, the codex says that any scout can take a sniper rifle. GW has said that this allows the scout sergeant to take one too.

Timmah wrote:For reference:

I realize FAQ's aren't rules but, in the DA faq, the codex says that any scout can take a sniper rifle. GW has said that this allows the scout sergeant to take one too.

Ooh, that's interesting.

However, I think in this case, if they wanted sergeants to be able to have them, there would simply have been one "any model" section and one "sergeant" section. The presence of the 3 sections indicates (to me, at least) that they can't have the big dakka...

Timmah wrote:For reference:

I realize FAQ's aren't rules but, in the DA faq, the codex says that any scout can take a sniper rifle. GW has said that this allows the scout sergeant to take one too.

Actually Timmah, it states that "any figure" may take a sniper rifle, I'm fine with that, but the portion in question I believe was with missle launchers and heavy bolters. For that entry it states that one SCOUT may replace his boltgun. With the shotgun, combat blade, or sniper rifle it states that ANY FIGURE may replace. For the ML and HB it states that one scout may take one of those items and then lists the specific items that a scout sergeant may take. It even goes on to state what the scout and the scout sergean can replace his weapons with.

Edit: I think that Slinky said it better than I did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timmah wrote:It states any scout. So while a scout sergeant is different than a normal scout, its still a scout. Just like a terminator sergeant is still a terminator.

Unless you are saying that a terminator sergeant cannot exchange his LC's for a TH/SS. (which everyone does currently)

Your arguement with the Terminator Sergeant makes no sense because in the codex it states that "Any model may replace his lightning claws with a thunderhammer and storm shield." The Terminator Sergeant falls into the any model category. Had it said that any terminator could do that, I would have to either change my position, or state that in fact, a terminator sergeant is different than a terminator, but since it states that any model may do this, the sergeant of a terminator squad may take one as well with no conflict of the rules.

Timmah wrote:It states any scout. So while a scout sergeant is different than a normal scout, its still a scout. Just like a terminator sergeant is still a terminator.

Unless you are saying that a terminator sergeant cannot exchange his LC's for a TH/SS. (which everyone does currently)

I've been on your side on this type of issue for a while, Timmah, but even I'm getting a little tired of the "XY is still an X so can do everything that X can" argument. Re-attacking with new and refreshing ideas is one thing, re-hashing with the same old argument disguised as something new is a bit devious if you ask me.

This being said, Slinky and s2ua7 have it right, in my opinion. The army list divides the squad into subsets for a reason. Yes you could interpret that a Scout Sergeant satisfies the requirements to be a Scout and so should be able to take any equipment that they are able to, but that's just unnecessarily stretching the defined subset. The phrase "any model" is pretty clear cut, but "Scout" is clearly referring to something that is a Scout and not anything else. If that wasn't the case, then there would be no need to have the "any model" subset.

Not trying to start a fight here, but this looks an awful lot like the beginnings of one of the 7-pages-of-fighting-for-no-reason posts.

DoW

Well I was just pointing out that the DA codex has a similar issue in which the sergeant (per your reading) would not be allowed a sniper rifle. Yet the FAQ answered that he could.

(didn't realize the terminator entry said any model, was just throwing it out there)

The DA codex is not the same as the SM codex, so using a DA FAQ to validate something in the SM codex isn't quite right.

It's just one of the many advantages to playing DA.

If a Scout Sergeant is a Scout, then you'd have to agree that a Hot Shot Lasgun is a Lasgun. And the majority view is that a Hot Shot Lasgun is not a Lasgun.

whitedragon wrote:The DA codex is not the same as the SM codex, so using a DA FAQ to validate something in the SM codex isn't quite right.

It's just one of the many advantages to playing DA.

True, but the issue is the same.
Remember FAQ's don't make rules, they just answer questions.
So its not like the FAQ makes it so a scout sergeant is considered a scout, it is per the rules in the book and is clarified by the FAQ.
The SM book and DA book are pretty much identical with their scout entries.

@kadun

wargear rules =! unit rules
also majority view is not always correct.

I don't think you can.
The codex reads "Any model may replace his boltgun with ...."
And on the line "One scout may repalce his boltgun with ..."

Were the Scout Sergent able to use a ML or HB it would have been specified as such. GW probably did not want you giving the heavy weapon to the sergent to get that extra BS.

Then why would they do the same thing in the DA codex and FAQ it to clarify that you could? Seems strange.

Because GW is capricious and inconsistent.

I agree that the wording in the unit entry is indicative. No ML or HB for the Scout Sgt.

Timmah wrote:Then why would they do the same thing in the DA codex and FAQ it to clarify that you could? Seems strange.

It was a problem in the old SM codex that you could not, legally, give your sergeant a sniper-rifle - even if the rest of the squad was armed as such, the sarge still had to lug along his noisy bolter. If the DA codex is anything like the old marine 'dex, this is why the entry is there, to end the confusion.

On this issue, a Scout Squad is made up of Scouts (4-9) and a Scout Sergeant. They then list what equipment/upgrades may be taken by each model type, or 'any model' The Scout Sergeant may only take those options listed for him, as he is not a 'Scout' but a 'Scout Sergeant'.

There is no problem here. The codex gives options for "any model", "one scout" and "the scout sergeant". If one scout meant any model in the unit, they would have just said one model. The differentiation has meaning, that is the sgt can't take the heavy bolter.

unistoo wrote:

Timmah wrote:Then why would they do the same thing in the DA codex and FAQ it to clarify that you could? Seems strange.

It was a problem in the old SM codex that you could not, legally, give your sergeant a sniper-rifle - even if the rest of the squad was armed as such, the sarge still had to lug along his noisy bolter. If the DA codex is anything like the old marine 'dex, this is why the entry is there, to end the confusion.

FAQ's do not make new rules, they just clarify questions. That being said, technically, per the FAQ, you could always legally give your scout sergeant a sniper rifle. Since the wording is Exactly (i believe) the same in the SM codex, and the FAQ does not make new rules (just clarifies them) then it stands to reason that it should be played the same.

@Dracos
GW likes to do goofy things like this with their rules, see terminator armour entry.



For the record, I am not for sure I am correct or incorrect. I just think something like this warrants a more in depth look.

Timmah, you are incorrect. A Scout Sergeant is not a Scout the same way a Heavy Bolter is not a Bolter.

Different Name = Different Thing.

All I'm saying is that the actual text is not ambiguous. Arguing what the author intended is different.

I agree that the text of the current SM codex is unambiguous.

I also agree that the wording in the DA FAQ is based on the wording of the DA codex's scout squad entry, which in turn is based on the PREVIOUS SM codex's squad entry, which had the aforementioned issue about squads of scout snipers not being able to give the sgt a sniper rifle.

Timmah wrote:
FAQ's do not make new rules, they just clarify questions. That being said, technically, per the FAQ, you could always legally give your scout sergeant a sniper rifle. Since the wording is Exactly (i believe) the same in the SM codex, and the FAQ does not make new rules (just clarifies them) then it stands to reason that it should be played the same



For the record, I am not for sure I am correct or incorrect. I just think something like this warrants a more in depth look.

First, FAQs usually do make new rules, and in any case that was errata, which changes the wording, and often the meaning of the rules.

I'm not sure what your argument is, but it seems to be your saying that because the DA codex was altered to allow any model access to options the codex only granted to "scouts," the same should be applied to the SM codex. That is false.

First, as pointed out, the errata was to allow scout sgts access to sniper rifles and shotguns. It in fact did not allow DA scout sgts access to the heavy weapons. To rely heavily on the DA FAQ for precedent doesn't help you.

Second, there is no reason to overly question the RAW in this case. Squad leaders rarely get heavy weapons in the Imperium codices, and the specific and logical way the section is laid out makes the restriction seem like a deliberate intent rather than a mistake.

In short, I don't see why it needs more in depth analysis.

Timmah wrote:you could always legally give your scout sergeant a sniper rifle. Since the wording is Exactly (i believe) the same in the SM codex, and the FAQ does not make new rules (just clarifies them) then it stands to reason that it should be played the same.

IIRC the DA codex is a direct copy and paste from the old SM 'dex which, RAW, did not allow the Sgt. to take a sniper rifle. This was clearly not what the author intended, hence the Errata to correct the mistake, and the fact that they changed the ruling in the newest SM 'dex. This is not precedent for giving the Sgt. a heavy weapon, as he is still not a Scout Model, he is a Scout Sergeant Model.

Its not errata for the DA. Its just a FAQ. So it is just clarifying what is allowed, not making a new rule.

The fact that the DA FAQ allows items purchased by scouts to be purchasable by scout sergeants makes an interesting point.

Note:
Errata = changing rules
FAQ = frequently asked question (what is allowable by current rules)

Gwar, it has been argued that wargear with different names are different than units with different names.

Heck, I got massively flamed when I tried to point out that by strict RAW assault terminators can sweeping advance because only terminators aren't allowed to. (see assault terminators =! terminators per your argument) and terminator armor only disallowed terminators from sweeping advances.

Timmah wrote:
Heck, I got massively flamed when I tried to point out that by strict RAW assault terminators can sweeping advance because only terminators aren't allowed to. (see assault terminators =! terminators per your argument) and terminator armor only disallowed terminators from sweeping advances.

Assault terminator squads are made up of terminators (the word GW uses to describe units in Tactical Dreadnought Armor), terminators (the models), and terminator sergeants.

So per Rustyknight:

Scout squads are made up of scouts (the word GW uses to describe units in Scout armor), scouts (the models) and scout sergeants.

I'm glad we agree Rusty.

Errm, no, but whatever. It seems no matter what you tell people these days its "Well Even though I asked for help I am right anyway BAWWWWWWWWWWWW"

The dark angels FAQ I have lists the change to scouts under Errata, not FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810079_DarkAngels_Oct_2008_5th_Edition_FAQ.pdf

The problem here is that your advocating an "easter egg" style ruling: that a long established rule has changed in a way that is subtle, easily overlooked and ambiguous if not an interpretive stretch.

I'm usually against those, particularly in a case like this where the RAW is nicely consistent and makes sense.

As for the comparison with Terminators, sure, if there was a rule that affected scouts as a class of units, I'd argue that it would apply to the sgt as well, as a member of a scout class unit. The key here is that the entry itself differentiates between any model, any scout, and the sgt.