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Hello there. My son collects Warhammer and plays with them, and a friend of mine told me this forum was a good place to ask other people who played for advice.

My son is quite talented at sculpting and he recently made some small accessories (some guns and things like that) for his figures and made himself a few copies. He wanted to put them on his models so they would look different from the ones you get in the boxes. His friends thought they were good and a few of them asked to buy copies of them, so he sold a few copies to them.

He then went into the local store and showed the people there the models. The people at the store were very interested, and said they could help him make better copies of them with some of the special casting equipment they had. So, he gave them the original models.

Well, they made some molds and cast them up, but now they are selling them in the store! The things my son made were very good indeed - he is autistic, but he has a real talent at painting etc. I went into the store and complained. The people there said there was nothing I could do and they were perfectly within their rights.

I don't know what to do. My son is quite upset by all of this, and I am angry - because they are making money from something my son did. The copies they have made are very nice, much better than the ones my son made with his own casting equipment - but I can't help but think we should be getting some money for it or something.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is there really nothing wrong with what they did? Are they allowed to do that?

CTMom wrote:Can anyone offer any advice? Is there really nothing wrong with what they did? Are they allowed to do that?

I'd be shocked if they were. However, I'm not familiar with US law, so I can't really help you out. In any case, I'd talk to a lawyer. Asking them about the case usually doesn't cost anything.

Wow, thats an amazing story!

Are you sure they are selling copies of your sons work? They aren't different at all?

Could you enlighten us a little bit please?

Post pics of the bits here.
If they are really good enough to sell then hundreds of people on this site will buy them.
The money lost to the shop will pale in significance.
You could buy a Rolls Royce.

Legally, I don't know where you stand but these things are unlikely to be worth megabucks for either party. ie not worth a court case.
Head into the store, be strong and fair and get something out of it or withdraw the models.

Hope it helps.

Just as it is illegal to make copies of GW's figures, what they are doing is illegal. The moment your son created something original, he held copyright to it.

Proving it and enforcing it (getting compensation for what they have sold already and may in the future) may be costly and possibly not worth it. Getting real legal advice from an attorney is a good idea.

Good luck!

Talk to a lawyer. They'll be able to advise you on your options.

If you haven't, ask to speak with the manager/owner. Sometimes there's an absentee owner.

We need pictures.

Given that these are his originals, you have every right to demand that they stop using them. As they are derivative of his work, and sold without royalties / permission, I would demand the molds as well. Otherwise, I guess you could go after copyright infringment / IP, just like GW would.

Don't be afraid to sue for the entire value of the store!

Hell with going about things the nice way, go in there and slap some nerds up. I'm confident that what they're doing is against the law and they're bluffing... Either way, you need to lay some serious hurt on those people. I can't abide such dick-moves.

Rico...

Realizing there are two sides to every story, by your account it sounds like a case of a talented young person who, through no fault of his own, probably isn't very good at figuring out when people don't have his best interest at heart, and has been taken advantage of. Probably not unusual really, there are plenty of "neurotypicals" that could suffer the same fate. I don't know if there is anything legal you can do, but even if there was, it probably wouldn't be financially worth it, and you'll have to decide if the principle is worth it. I think you should ask your son about that.

If they are selling the casts but crediting your son with the work, it might be best to just go ahead and let them make a little money. Eventually someone is going to ask where they're getting custom work, and while they can lie, if that person is going to want something they haven't cast, then your son's name may show up. You may even ask them to compromise and sell the casts and mention his name as the sculptor. If they're good enough to sell, people may pay for custom work.

I don't think money is the important thing here, I think it is credit where credit is due that is the issue. Another real problem is that it might damage your son's willingness to trust, which might be a problem because i'm guessing that figuring people out isn't what he's particularly good at. I would hate to see it make him feel stupid or inadequete. You know that he is neither, it is just that his mind is not geared toward people the way most other people's are. But he might feel that way.

I have had issues with difficulty dealing with people leading to distrust, though I imagine my issues are nothing compared to what he must go through. Most of all, don't let it turn him off of the hobby! Unless you live in a very small town, I'm sure there are places to play where the people there will be supportive and cool.

Rico wrote:Hell with going about things the nice way, go in there and slap some nerds up. I'm confident that what they're doing is against the law and they're bluffing... Either way, you need to lay some serious hurt on those people. I can't abide such dick-moves.

An Amazing comment!

I feel I can't add much that hasnt been said already tbh, expect that I doubt even GW would approve of what's happening here 2...

I couldn't disagree more with Grignard.
You can't let people like this step on you and get away with it.

Contact a lawyer who offers a free initial consultation and give them the details. Bring in some 40K models and copies of your son's work to the meeting. If posible, get a hold of copies of what the store's selling, too.
Hire him if he works on commission and not by the hour and wants the case. If he doesn't want the case, or doesn't think he can handle it (IP infringement), ask for a referral.

Sue them.

If all else fails, how much does your sons work resemble original Games Workshop stuff? If it's close enough, you could just sic them on the store.


Eric

This sounds like something that could almost be brought to small claims court. Yes, the money in the situation probably isn't a lot, but as has been stated its more about giving credit where its due. A legal decision that the molds/designs belong to your son would stop them selling and thus put them back in your sons hands.

Its theft, its against copyright - get a lawyer.

The problem here is that no one really knows what the law is on these matters.

There is definitely a problem here, but it is hard to know what your recourse is.

That is why I generally do not listen to anyone who goes off half cocked on these matters and only listen to Janthkin who is an Intellectual Property lawyer.

I sent him a PM to take a quick look at this thread and maybe he will be along and give his advice.

In the mean time where do you live and what store are we talking about?

The law is clear. If someone creates an original sculpture the copyright is theirs and it is illegal for someone to make copies without permission.

The store guys may claim that the OP's son gave them permission to cast copies, however without a written contract that is impossible to prove.

Anyway, in US contract law, there is the concept of the unconscionable contract. This is a contract in which one party derives so little benefit that realistically he would not have entered into it.

If the son is deriving no benefit from the store selling casts of his models, that looks obviously unconscionable.

My advice would be for the OP to visit the store and talk to the manager and ask for their explanation of what they are doing.

It may be possible to do a deal whereby they give you a royalty or a quantity of their castings.

It is best to avoid going to law until you are sure of the facts of the case and have a good chance of winning. Copyright cases are common law so you will have to pay your own legal costs if you lose.

I am not a lawyer, I merely studied contract and copyright for my work.

If I am not mistaken, for copyright laws to apply,the work must have had copywrite applications at least submitted to your local government copywrite office.

I would say I am about 95% sure on this since Constitutional Law is my specialty and not Copywrite Law.

Although the US government maintains a copyright registration bureau, it isn't legally required to submit work for it to be covered by copyright.

You have to register in order to bring a lawsuit.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register

CTMom wrote:My son is quite talented at sculpting and he recently made some small accessories (some guns and things like that) for his figures and made himself a few copies. He wanted to put them on his models so they would look different from the ones you get in the boxes. His friends thought they were good and a few of them asked to buy copies of them, so he sold a few copies to them.

This is wonderful. I, personally, have very little talent for sculpting, but I have tried - it makes me appreciate those who can sculpt all the more. I hope he continues to create.

He then went into the local store and showed the people there the models. The people at the store were very interested, and said they could help him make better copies of them with some of the special casting equipment they had. So, he gave them the original models.

Well, they made some molds and cast them up, but now they are selling them in the store! The things my son made were very good indeed - he is autistic, but he has a real talent at painting etc. I went into the store and complained. The people there said there was nothing I could do and they were perfectly within their rights.

Here's where I have to start with the disclaimers. While I am an IP attorney, I'm not your attorney. I cannot offer you legal advice here. I can run you through your options, though.

I don't know what to do. My son is quite upset by all of this, and I am angry - because they are making money from something my son did. The copies they have made are very nice, much better than the ones my son made with his own casting equipment - but I can't help but think we should be getting some money for it or something.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is there really nothing wrong with what they did? Are they allowed to do that?

If your son is of age, the game store may have thought they had permission to do this. You can probably correct this misapprehension.
If he is not, then there can be no valid contract (which a license to a copyrighted work would have to be).

In general, the creator of a sculpture (which accessories for Warhammer miniatures would be), has the sole right to determine who can make copies of their work - this is commonly referred to as licensing the work. The terms under which a license is granted can be negotiated, much like any contract.

The first thing is to figure out what exactly you want for an outcome. Do you want the store to stop selling his pieces? Do you want him to be able to go into the store again? Do you want some sort of business partnership with the store?

So, I promised you options.
1) You can do nothing. I don't recommend this; it'll leave you (and him) bitter, take away from his enjoyment of the hobby, and likely prevent him from going to the store ever again.
2) You can write a (physical) letter to the game store. Lay out the facts very clearly and dispassionately, and make sure you explain your desired outcome. Don't make any threats in your letter. Send it to the store, and send it signature required. It would help if you know the store owner's name.
3) You can find a (local) attorney, and have him write the letter. Just the addition of the letterhead is going to inspire more attention, and is more likely to provoke some reaction.
4) You can find a (local) attorney, and have him draft a cease-and-desist letter. This will almost certainly prevent the store from selling any further copies of the pieces - no local gaming store is going to want any part of a copyright infringement lawsuit.
5) Separately, you can file a report with your local Better Business Bureau. It's not likely to produce much of an outcome (little stores rarely care about the BBB), but it spreads the story around a little. You could also contact your local news/newspaper and explain the story; they may decide to run with the human interest aspects, which could shame the store into more cooperative behavior.

I'd probably start with option 2. Options 3 & 4 are most likely going to be bridge-burning exercises, regardless of outcome - small businesses rarely react professionally to interactions with attorneys, even the most benign.

Good luck!

Great advice.

They shouldn't be making copies of it without your permission. Like overs have said, try talking to them. Maybe they're selling them to cover the cost of producing them, either way they should get your permission first.






I'm guessing this is just a coincidence?


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/14152.page

Read Janthkin's post.

Take option 2 and write a reasonable letter and send it registered post. Do it soon to start getting on top of the situation.

Let us know how you get on.

As the father of a daughter with autism, I say drop the hammer (i.e., lawyer) if you can afford to do so.

It's always best to avoid the use of lawyers until necessary.

First off, let me welcome you to Dakka. Thanks in no small part to the anonimity of the internet, we have some hot heads around here who will recommend foolhardy things. Then there are the grown ups, that title being much more relative to behavior than actual age. The distinction will make itself known to you, an adult, exceedingly quickly. Remember that some of us are 12, and some of us are 52, and that neither of those numbers is necessarily related to physical age.

As far as what to do: Janthkin has coverd that quite well. You've got some good options there. I personally would not be too overly concerned about burning bridges; as it seems that these people are not the types you want your son hanging around and picking up social cues from anyway. Don't sound like people I'd want my kids hanging with. However, make your own call.

Also, may I suggest getting back on the horse for your son and yourself? Your son has talent, otherwise you would not be in the bind you are right now. I would encourage my children, were they in those shoes, to continue creating, to make further projects. You can find people here and other places online, who will reliably and honorably cast from his originals. People here on Dakka are always looking for "something cool"to add to their models, and I can speak form experience that we all geek out when we see such stuff on other peoples models. We think its great!

I'm not going to tell you that these castings will enable your early retirement and a road to ease, but you could certainly use the proceeds to subsidize future gaming supplies and modeling supplies for his hobbies. Win for him, win for your wallet!

I realize that finding someone you can trust after all of this might be difficult, but the rewards when you take the time to find such people will be great. Good luck, and I for one would LOVE to see some of the stuff he is sculpting! Do you have any pics?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and what IS the name of this store?????? I presume you are in Connecticut, and it's not like I get there much; but the gaming community at large likes to know such things. It helps us decide where to take our business.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's always best to avoid the use of lawyers until necessary.

OK, good point.

I let emotion get the better of me there for a bit.

But definitely address this with the store ASAP, via the good advice you've received in this thread already...

I'd definitely send a letter. I have a hard time believing that they're making enough money off of these recasts to be worth your time to go after them with a lawyer, though. If it were me I'd just ask them to give my son credit. Then I'd let my son make some more sculpts and this time sell them the rights to sell them. Think of the first round as a sample or something. Meanwhile, I'd consider tossing them up on the internet and try to make some money there. If your kid isn't interested in doing it for profit then I'd just send an email to GW and explain to them the situation. Maybe THEY'LL send a cease and desist letter.

The real issue is what do you really want to be done about it? Im sure they were good and I know your upset as is your son and you have every right to be. However what do you expect to come of it? Maybe they broke the law maybe they didnt, are you willing to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours and dollars just to be right? Even if you are and you win a civil suit are you willing to spen even more money and time just to collect on any judgement?

The best thing to do, is just let it go. Mark it up to a learning experience and focus on making your son happy, I dont have an autistic child so I dont know how hard it is to have your son move on. But if he has a talent Im sure he would be happy making some new items. Also I would advise against naming the shop or anyone associated with the shop as this will open you up to a liable/slander suit.

If your son truly does have talent, I would look into copyright laws but this can be very expensive. There are a lot of players/hobbyists here who purchase well made custom products from people all the time. So, even though it would be very expensive to copyright your sons work he can always sell them on-line. Have him make some new ones and post some pics. Good luck, its a sad fact that there are people who take advantage of whom ever they can, fortunately word gets out and this is a tight community. Ive seen shops close for doing similar things to customers, we can always shop somewhere else.

Can we assume by your name that the "CT" refers to the same "CT" in mine, hence Connecticut?

If so I think you should out the store by name which you should have no problem doing if your story is true. I don't care to give any business to a store that would pull this sort of thing.

Liable suit if its in print. You as the plaintiff have the burden of proof in a court of law. Going around and slandering a business, wether its true or not is not very smart. Especially when its fairly easy for them to find out who did it. Rest assured if anyone slandered my business (or liable if in print) Id introduce them to my lawyers, who have nothing to do but do everything they can to take every penny you have and make sure you spend as much time in jail as possible. Unfortunately we dont live in the wild west anymore, many things were much simplar a long time ago, but even in the past slandering a person or business wether they desrve it or not is VERY serious and will get anyone who does it into a lot of trouble. This is a situation that with the introduction of strong emotions can quickly get out of hand. One can very quickly find the tables turned and what is in the grand scheme of things a relativly minor annoyance (yes its wrong and makes one very angry), can quickly get turned into a major civicl/criminal case that can ruin lives. Unless you are a reporter and you are doing an in depth investigative report and are a neutral party who can back up there words with hard proof and are working for an established news agency (theres a hint here, go to a reporter, they love this stuff.) dont even remotly consider slandering any business.