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Ok, now before we start and I get people going "OMFG Gwar using an FAQ!", I personally do not use the GW FAQ's where an FAQ flat out contradicts clear as day RaW (unless mandated by the TO/club I am in etc).
For those who may not know, the new superhighqualitythatwillnevercausenayproblems™ GW's new Imperial Guard FAQ states:

Q. Can orders be issued to allied Witch Hunter and/or Daemonhunter units?
A. No, orders can only be issued to non-vehicle units from Codex: Imperial Guard. I think Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and in particular Inquisitors would have some serious objections with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them what to do!

Now, that being said, some people do use the FAQ's as Law and this question is primarily aimed at them:

If I have a Imperial Guard Squad (For Example, a Veteran Squad) that has been Joined by an Allied Independent Character (For Example, an Inquisitor) and I issue an order to that Squad (for example, Bring it Down!), what the hell happens?
I also ask the Inverse, what happens if I have an Allied Squad (for example Grey Knights) with an Attached Imperial Guard Independent character (For Example a Commissar Lord) and I issue and order to that Squad. What happens?

I have thoughts on this, but I would like to see what you all make of it first

well I am going to assume that the order is taken by the imperial guard units, but not by the allied units, so for your example, the veterans would get the order and then the commisar would get the order, the others would just ignore it.

Interestingly enough you would get to use the inquisitor's ld 9 or 10.

I actually think that the order would not work at all. I don't think you can have different models in the same unit doing different things. Even if the inquistor is firing at the same unit, I don't think the vets would get the benefit of the order. I can't find any rules on this at all though...

Fluff-wise (which is super important when it comes to rules...haha) this would make sense. An Inquisitor is not going to let some po-dunk IG commander tell the squad he has personally appropriated what to do. Similarly, if a commissar was granted the honor of fighting with GK, they would probably be doing their own thing rather than listening to the commanders on field orders.

The order can be acted upon by the non-vehicle IG unit but the non-non-vehicle IG unit doesn't receive any benefit.

The IG unit may use whatever leadership value is highest per normal rules.

I would not allow for orders to be issued in either case. I'm the resident guard player, and I wouldn't feel right doing this. I very occassionaly play with DH allies, but have never ordered them, or any squad they were attached to.

The FAQ answer is perfectly clear:

Only Imperial Guard UNITS can be given orders. The rest of the answer is simply an explanation as to why the ruling was made.

So to answer your particular questions:

If an allied character is joined to an IG unit, then it would benefit from the order (as it is part of the unit).

If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

yakface wrote:
The FAQ answer is perfectly clear:

Only Imperial Guard UNITS can be given orders. The rest of the answer is simply an explanation as to why the ruling was made.

So to answer your particular questions:

If an allied character is joined to an IG unit, then it would benefit from the order (as it is part of the unit).

If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

Aye, that actually was my initial thought. Cheers for that.

yakface wrote:
The FAQ answer is perfectly clear:

Only Imperial Guard UNITS can be given orders. The rest of the answer is simply an explanation as to why the ruling was made.

So to answer your particular questions:

If an allied character is joined to an IG unit, then it would benefit from the order (as it is part of the unit).

If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

Court's adjourned. All rise.

yakface wrote:
The FAQ answer is perfectly clear:

Only Imperial Guard UNITS can be given orders. The rest of the answer is simply an explanation as to why the ruling was made.

So to answer your particular questions:

If an allied character is joined to an IG unit, then it would benefit from the order (as it is part of the unit).

If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

A squad with an IC from another codex in it is no longer a unit from the Imperial Guard codex. It is a combined unit from both codexes, so I don't think your argument works.

I see the ruling as being that squad cannot receive the order, as they are not a unit from the Imperial Guard codex at that time.

Kaaihn wrote:

yakface wrote:
The FAQ answer is perfectly clear:

Only Imperial Guard UNITS can be given orders. The rest of the answer is simply an explanation as to why the ruling was made.

So to answer your particular questions:

If an allied character is joined to an IG unit, then it would benefit from the order (as it is part of the unit).

If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

A squad with an IC from another codex in it is no longer a unit from the Imperial Guard codex. It is a combined unit from both codexes, so I don't think your argument works.

I see the ruling as being that squad cannot receive the order, as they are not a unit from the Imperial Guard codex at that time.

This. How can we determine where one unit ends and another begins? What happens when Creed is the only one left standing in his squad, and an inquisitor joins him? Can he order himself to do things? Can someone else? Both the squads are the same size (within the unit of 2), so why is there a distinction made here?

I'd guess the universe would implode, much in the same way as when gluing a piece of buttered toast to the cat's back with the buttered side up: If dropped, will the cat land of its feet or will the toast land buttered side down? Both should happen, yet neither can if the other does.

Who's to say? By GW's own admission, their FAQ are house rules, to be used as an example only, not as law.

If we do take their suggestion on how orders are fulfilled, the only real way to determine the outcome is to first apply the order to the correct models, then decide if other non-IG models in the same unit would prevent the order from being fulfilled if those specific non-IG models are unable to act along with the unit in question.

Simply put: give the order, apply the order, see if any attached IC's prevent/benefit from the order, follow the order with legal models in the targeted unit, etc.

In an odd sort of way, GW’s FAQ is probably closer to RAW than RAI, despite it being an example of yet more poor wording when clarity could have been achieve during the editing process.

SJ

Interesting question you found there, Gwar!.

I'd agree that orders work on IG squads with attached non-IG ICs, but not on non-IG squads with IG-ICs joined.
I don't have my rulebooks with me, but I think a common phrase is "if an IC is attached to the unit..." at some parts in the books. This gives me the impression, that, even with a character in the unit, the original unit is still the primary entity to work with.

However, on a related topic I noticed one thing:

How would you play it on a 2vs2 game, with IG and DH/WH on one side...when the Inquisition forces inducted some imperial guardsmen? Could the officers of the pure IG army issue orders to the inducted IG units in the DH/WH army? They're units from Codex:IG after all...

I know there are no real rules for games with more than two players, but I think it fits the thread title, too.

What if the IG IC and the WH/DH IC join together to form a single, 2-model unit?

Kaaihn wrote:
A squad with an IC from another codex in it is no longer a unit from the Imperial Guard codex. It is a combined unit from both codexes, so I don't think your argument works.

I see the ruling as being that squad cannot receive the order, as they are not a unit from the Imperial Guard codex at that time.

There is no such thing in the rules as a "combined unit", that's a reference you've totally inserted yourself.

A unit taken from the Imperial Guard codex is a unit taken from the Imperial Guard codex, and having a character join that unit doesn't change that fact (at least nothing in the rules indicates it does).

I think you're missing that an IC is a "unit" just as much as a squad of troops is.

So, a squad of troopers + an inquisitor is two units, one from each codex, just the same as a commissar lord attached to a squad of grey knights.

If we're going to treat these squad+ICs as a single unit, how do we determine which is eligible to receive orders. Both are one unit from each codex combined. Why is the unit containing an IG squad more eligible than the unit containing the IG character? (according to yakface)

Or do we treat them as two separate units? According to the FAQ then, we can order the IG unit but not the attached non-IG unit.

Scott-S6 wrote:I think you're missing that an IC is a "unit" just as much as a squad of troops is.

So, a squad of troopers + an inquisitor is two units, one from each codex, just the same as a commissar lord attached to a squad of grey knights.

If we're going to treat these squad+ICs as a single unit, how do we determine which is eligible to receive orders. Both are one unit from each codex combined. Why is the unit containing an IG squad more eligible than the unit containing the IG character?

Or do we treat them as two separate units? According to the FAQ then, we can order the IG unit but not the attached non-IG unit.

There is no spoon....

When an IC is attached to a unit, there isn't two units. There is one. Given the language used to describe this process in the BGB (an IC joins a unit), that single unit is the IG unit.

I agree that they become (temporarily) a single unit.

However, why is a unit containing an IG squad and an IC considered an IG unit while a unit containing an IG character and a squad is not? Both are formed from one IG unit and one non-IG unit.

What about a unit consisting of two ICs - one IG and one not?


The FAQ is not sufficiently specific.

Scott-S6 wrote:The FAQ is not sufficiently specific.

All the more reason why I ignore then half the time.

Scott-S6 wrote:However, why is a unit containing an IG squad and an IC considered an IG unit while a unit containing an IG character and a squad is not? Both are formed from one IG unit and one non-IG unit.

Because the IC loses "unit" status once it joins another unit, thus you take the parent unit's Codex Affiliation for the entire unit since the IC no longer counts as a unit in and of itself.

You're right, though, in that there is nothing in the main rules that actually states this because GW doesn't take it into consideration despite having 2 books that could result in such a situation.

Janthkin wrote:
When an IC is attached to a unit, there isn't two units. There is one. Given the language used to describe this process in the BGB (an IC joins a unit), that single unit is the IG unit.

I agree completely...

...except in assault? Where an IC is "always treated as a separate unit from a unit he has joined or is a part of?"

I don't recall offhand if there's an order that can be given to units in assault, but that could cause some additional wrinkles?

Flavius Infernus wrote:I don't recall offhand if there's an order that can be given to units in assault, but that could cause some additional wrinkles?

There is only one that could be(and do anything, anyway) and that's Creed's unique order which grants Fearless and Furious Charge.

But only half of that is semi-useful to a unit already engaged and utterly useless if the IC is an Inquisitor, anyway.

The question about two ICs, one from each codex, still stands even with the current thought on the argument.

Platuan4th wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:However, why is a unit containing an IG squad and an IC considered an IG unit while a unit containing an IG character and a squad is not? Both are formed from one IG unit and one non-IG unit.

Because the IC loses "unit" status once it joins another unit, thus you take the parent unit's Codex Affiliation for the entire unit since the IC no longer counts as a unit in and of itself.

You're right, though, in that there is nothing in the main rules that actually states this because GW doesn't take it into consideration despite having 2 books that could result in such a situation.

That would be a sensible house rule.

yakface wrote:If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

Is an Independent Character no longer a unit in his own right?

Harkainos wrote:

yakface wrote:If an IG character is joined to an allied unit that unit still cannot be given an order because it is not an Imperial Guard unit.

Is an Independent Character no longer a unit in his own right?

Only in the Assault Phase.

Kitzz wrote:The question about two ICs, one from each codex, still stands even with the current thought on the argument.

It's a point in favor of not being able to do an IG order if any IC from another codex joins the IG unit - it makes the question of what to do with two ICs go away.

And what about 3 ICs from DH/WH joining 1 IC from IG? You want to say 1 IG IC is not an IG unit, but what's the basis for that? A single model from IG is as much an IG unit as one with ten models.

Also, if we want to be even stricter in our interpretations, inducted guard units are now part of a WH/DH FoC - in that state, they could be considered WH or DH units (instead of being IG units even though they are from the IG codex) and therefore incapable of receiving orders as WH/DH units.

I actually agree with the issues you raised wholeheartedly. I have no idea why you quoted my post, however.

The distinction you made about the FoC members is indeed interesting, but allies still raise the issue.

I think it should be treated the same way that having a character without a certain skill joining a unit with that skill and neither being able to use it's benefits.

Exapmle: Eldar Rangers can Infiltrate, but if a Farseer is attached to the squad before the game starts, they cannot infiltrate.

Lord Harrab wrote:I think it should be treated the same way that having a character without a certain skill joining a unit with that skill and neither being able to use it's benefits.

Exapmle: Eldar Rangers can Infiltrate, but if a Farseer is attached to the squad before the game starts, they cannot infiltrate.

Of course they can't. To attach a Farseer you have to Deploy him within 2". As he doesn't have infiltrate, this means the Rangers would have been deployed before the Deploy Infiltrators step, at which point they are deployed so clearly cannot infiltrate.

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:I think it should be treated the same way that having a character without a certain skill joining a unit with that skill and neither being able to use it's benefits.

Exapmle: Eldar Rangers can Infiltrate, but if a Farseer is attached to the squad before the game starts, they cannot infiltrate.

Of course they can't. To attach a Farseer you have to Deploy him within 2". As he doesn't have infiltrate, this means the Rangers would have been deployed before the Deploy Infiltrators step, at which point they are deployed so clearly cannot infiltrate.

Owch. That seemed rather snappish.