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A question about peoples perceptions of sportsmanship.

Why does everyone seem to believe if there is not a sportsmanship score at a tournament that everyone will play like a huge dick? Does 40k attract that many angry people?
I have played multiple other hobbies/video games at tournaments where there is no sportsmanship scores and very rarely do I ever run into someone who is a complete jerk to play against.
(for reference, I have played in a ton of MTG tournaments include many large/important ones and can recall 1 person who was ever a jerk at a tournament)


I don't understand why 40k players feel it is necessary to keep people in line.
If its true, then I would have to say I am pretty sad that this hobby attracts such a crowd.



Also, I know I am going to get responses like: I don't want to drive 8 hours to a big tournament and have to play some jerk.

Know what? Its one game, deal with it. Are you really going to cry and moan over one person being a jerk.



So, does anyone else think sportsmanship scores are absolutely ludicrous?

Yes I totally agree.

When sportsmanship scores basically boil down to 'does this person play the right way?' and they are a way of punishing people that play differently than you do...They are not a very good thing.

Just reward cheating/being rude with expulsion...*shrugs*

skyth wrote:When sportsmanship scores basically boil down to 'does this person play the right way?' and they are a way of punishing people that play differently than you do...They are not a very good thing.

Just reward cheating/being rude with expulsion...*shrugs*

This is what judges should be for...

Timmah wrote:A question about peoples perceptions of sportsmanship.

Why does everyone seem to believe if there is not a sportsmanship score at a tournament that everyone will play like a huge dick? Does 40k attract that many angry people?
I have played multiple other hobbies/video games at tournaments where there is no sportsmanship scores and very rarely do I ever run into someone who is a complete jerk to play against.
(for reference, I have played in a ton of MTG tournaments include many large/important ones and can recall 1 person who was ever a jerk at a tournament)

Ever consider that maybe the reason you don't run into that many is that you're the jerk I kid, I kid.

I guess maybe there are two kinds of tournaments: gaming tournaments and hobby tournaments? I dunno. But it seems to me that if the object is to simply bring your best game and win on the tabletop, everything else should be secondary, right? If it's truly a win/lose proposition, what does painting and sportsmanship have to do with it? This would be the gaming tournament.

That being said, last time I checked--and despite GW's best efforts as of late--Warhammer 40K is still a hobby. Hobbies have little to do with winning and losing. Those people who enjoy the hobby and want to hangout, get some games in with folks they don't usually play with, and show off their army probably appreciate something more than a smashmouth game. This would be the hobby tournament.

I'm not making a judgment on which one is better, but I guess there are two different camps in the debate. As long as I know ahead of time which kind of tournament is being run, I can choose to attend or choose not to. Seems pretty simple to me.

the_Armyman wrote:

That being said, last time I checked--and despite GW's best efforts as of late--Warhammer 40K is still a hobby. Hobbies have little to do with winning and losing. Those people who enjoy the hobby and want to hangout, get some games in with folks they don't usually play with, and show off their army probably appreciate something more than a smashmouth game. This would be the hobby tournament.

I understand this. I am wondering why TO's believe it necessary to have a system that prevents people from being jerks. Is there really this many mean/angry people who play this game that people feel they need a system in place that makes you "play nice"

As I said I have played a ton of MTG with no sportsmanship scores involved, and have never really ran into jerks while I am playing. So I don't understand why it is necessary to have something in place to prevent it.

Sportsmanship still has a place here because almost every single pure battle tournament I have been, I always seem to run into TFG or the game turns into plenty of bickering over LOS, range, rules disputes, etc. MTG has a tighter ruleset than 40k and it doesnt have to deal with range, LOS, RAW vs RAI. With video games, you rarely have the level of interaction between your opponent than you do 40k. Also some other gaming tournaments would have more activity from the judges.

There is still a portion of the gaming community that are not hardcore tournament players and goto GTs or GD just to see new armies, have a good time and have no expectations of winning or are painters participate in the 40k equivalent of a car show.

There are tournaments out there that cater to the pure battle or have few points in soft scores. Just few of them as big and you can always do the Gladiator at Adepticon or try to convince them to do a pure battle tournament.

The current GT system is way better than back 5-6 years ago where it was a soft tournament and people could win before it started. Also GW has taken steps to make sportsmanship as close to objective as possible.

Tim remember that Jervis himself has stated he does not like the tournament crowd and will be far from supporting any real competitive event as a good friend Mike West has said: "I think GW is attempting to make a shift away from this competitive spirit back to a fluff driven game and it's grating on the tournament player's mindset. Apocalypse is the most obvious illustration of this. In the Rogue Trader era, I collected a mish mash of models from anything that caught my imagination knowing I could combine them in some loose narrative and play them on the table, but for the last several years my purchases were based on a unit I needed for list build combo. The tournament mindset compartmentalizes not just the game, but the GW business model too. Suddenly with Apocalypse people will buy multiples of models, units, even Forgeworld with the understanding that they can play them. But what does the tournament player think? "Damn, I could use that new Revenant Titan, Brass Scorpion, Shadow Sword in the Gladiator Tournament at Adepticon this year and really clean house!" The tourney mindset pushes back against the hobby/fluff mindset. When 5th edition reintroduced the 'true line of sight' rule a chorus of tournament player cried "what're they idiots?! This is gonna cause so many problems in a tournament!" Exactly. The assumption is that the rules MUST be written to succinctly cater to the tournament mindset. To which Jervis and Allesio say "piss off!"

Timmah wrote:
I am wondering why TO's believe it necessary to have a system that prevents people from being jerks. Is there really this many mean/angry people who play this game that people feel they need a system in place that makes you "play nice"

As I said I have played a ton of MTG with no sportsmanship scores involved, and have never really ran into jerks while I am playing. So I don't understand why it is necessary to have something in place to prevent it.

You are either EXTREMELY fortunate, or you have a vastly different definition of "jerks" than I do.

My first and only MTG pre-release tourney (I think it was for Weatherlight), I drove down to Atlanta with a buddy and with great expectations, only to be incessantly "smack-talked" all through the second game by a nine or ten-year-old with his mommy standing behind him, egging him on... Haven't been to another one since.

My last GW game tourney was Warhammer Fantasy, back in the early to mid-90's. The Lizardmen codex had just come out, and my late-teen opponent was really high on his army, bragging on his Lizardman Mage-Priest and Temple Guard unit ad nauseum. He got them too close to one of my Empire volley guns, which misfired when I fired it at the unit, getting some disgusting number of high-strength hits. Anyway, poof went his vaunted unit, general, and a large portion of the points in his army. He got huffy and accused me of cheating, then when the owner of the shop (who was the "judge" for the event) and I showed him the crazy misfire rule for the Volley Gun in the Empire codex, he got so upset he started this creepy silent crying thing, packed up his stuff, and left right then and there.

Neither of those tourneys had "sportsmanship" scores. I wouldn't have cared if the second guy had docked ME for "sportsmanship," as long as the threat of losing "sportsmanship" scores had kept the first kid from being such a dick and the second one from having a total freaking melt-down.

But do sportsmanship scores prevent such a thing anyway, Commisar?

In the cases you describe, they were going to be that way, sportsmanship score or no.

I dunno, Malfred. I figured at the time that they were acting that way because they were so hyper-competitive over the chance of winning the tournament. I figure that the risk of getting docked points for either being a smack-talking jerk or freaking out on me over a little used (and totally unpredictable) rule might have "cooled their ardor," so to speak.

But I really don't know. Getting that bent out'ta shape in the first place over such dorky distractions just doesn't make any sense to me at all!

People will still whine about losing because they are usually outa the competition for finishing high if they lose a game.

I think sportsman ship scores are a good thing, it keeps people in the mind-set that this is just a game, and it's supposed to be fun. And as long as you're not being an donkey-cave it's not like you need to worry about the sportsmanship score anyway.

But sportsmanship scores ALLOW people to be passive-aggressive donkey-caves...

Timmah wrote:People will still whine about losing because they are usually outa the competition for finishing high if they lose a game.

Whining is okay - whining and general disappointment I can handle. Smack-talking me and freaking the eff out, no, thank'ee.

I've never been munchkined in sportsmanship... until a tourny where these guys from the army for salvation showed up.

team event where they gave us bad scores for..
1) pointing out leman russ's can't fire everything and move 6 inches
2) chimeras are not open topped
3) units in chimera's can't recieve orders
4) 8inches=/=6 inches

we beat them. they didn't play the mission and we did. we used the rubric, they took a 7 away on the rubric, lowest we could with this objective rubric was a 7 also, we got a 5 or something like that. D*cks

turns out there whole club did this... (well not the guy I met at a later event who was cool, just the 4 that were at the event i was at). They all felt that TFG was anyone that followed rules and pointed out they played wrong... and I did so in a nice way...
"I'm not sure it works that way... can we check that rule before we go on?"
"are you sure that was only 6 inches? it looked further?"
"wow I didn't know thats how it worked... let me see if i can do that with my orks... (searching book for a min) wait... the rule book says this... I don't think we played that right"

Sooo using positive non-aggressive methods of solving rules disputes by opening the book... was being TFG?

heh...

Too many people associate knowing the rules with being TFG. :(

I like no sports things that vote for favorite opponent.

I do the following to people who are acting like jerks.


" So, did you have any problems with your hotel?"

" Mumble"

" Ah yeah I got a real private room"

" Mumble"

" would you like to have a drink with me after the game? "


Or I start discussing how much I find them attractive and start flirting with them


Basically I just make them incredibly uncomfortable.

frgsinwntr wrote:Too many people associate knowing the rules with being TFG.

This. I've been labeled TFG and a rules lawyer a few too many times by people who prefer not to be informed of the rules, even on completely clear ones. I tend to give out very high sportsmanship scores unless my opponent is blatantly cheating on purpose and getting angry when caught. Given that I give everyone a high sportsmanship score, it really defeats the purpose. If there's a prick at the tournament and he happens to win by being a prick to everyone in every game, there's a pretty high chance we just won't see him again.

There ARE people for whom winning is the only acceptable outcome. They tend to be very bad losers. We have several in my club (they throw tantrums and dice and occasionally models when they underperform).

Then you have bad winners. Gloating is one thing. Excessive gloating is another. It's mandollies, not global peacemaking. If your ego is so fragile that it needs the stroking of winning at the game, then get some help.

Sports scores here help keep their numbers down. If I want to see tantrums, I can babysit my 3 year old nephew.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I think sportsman ship scores are a good thing, it keeps people in the mind-set that this is just a game, and it's supposed to be fun. And as long as you're not being an donkey-cave it's not like you need to worry about the sportsmanship score anyway.

You know, I just ignore sportsmanship scoring for the most part. I don't even think about it for my own scores; as I really don't care. I came to game, and if you like playing me cool. Most people seem to enjoy playing me, and I never want for a game when I go to the FLGS, and that right THERE is the only sportsmanship score I really give a fat frog's ass about. As far as my opponents in a tourney; I am fairly generous unless they are a tool.

I don't see them as being very positive. I'd be happy if they came out of tourneys because amongst all the guys I game with if someone is being a tool they generally get the idea very quick.

I am glad we had sportsmanship scores on one tourny I went to. This guy was still playing 4th ed in a 5th ed tournie. Then every move, shot and assault I did he argued, complained and even screamed at me once, "YOU CAN'T PUT THEM THERE!" After that other people stepped in because they could see that he was being a before I tabled him like I did his army.

It just came to me that I was glad their was sportsmanship at the team tourny at Adepticon 09. Again another person playing 4th ed rules and arguing with us each turn. His partner for the game was this really nice girl that just wanted to throw dice and have fun. She was even rolling her eyes when we had to break out the 5th ed rule book for the tenth time to show him that we were playing 5th not 4th. He tanked our sportsmanship score and army comp score which was perfect till then (he said that a Nurgle SM teamed up with a Eppy Tally List was not correct army comp in a team tourny. ) We marked off his sportsmanship score because of his arguing and not knowing which edition to play at a national tourny.

I still believe that sportsmanship scores still have a relevance in tournies.

I'd rather an honest jerk than an overly fake nice person aiming for max sports.
I haven't met that many abrasive players at irish tournaments, though I have encountered some cheating every now and then. If someone cheats and I catch them, I just point it out. If someone cheats and I find out later that they did, I will watch them more carefully if playing them again.
I don't see a need for sportsmanship at tournaments. That said, I'd be happier if painting was a seperate prize entirely and we stopped having Background Quizes too.

I don't mind if someone is playing the wrong edition but when they argue with you about the rules for two and half hours because of it then that is sportsmanship. Especially, when our team spend over a $100 USD just to enter the team tourny at Adepticon you expect everyone to be at least playing the right edition. I don't mind someone pointing out a mistake that has occured and lets someone take it back or roll a 4+ on it. That is sportsmanship. But yelling and pouting about a rule that is in older edition when playing in a national tourny just sucks the fun out of the game.

I have run into a cheater or two in my day. Most of them are absolute jerks. But, honestly, if I just want to hang out and have fun, my local game store is there. There is always cons for meeting new people. If I want to meet new like minded folks, i will run a themed game at a convention.

But I have run into some bad sports. Worst example: There is a family that comes to the gaming convention in my area every year. They are absolute pains in the rears. There are four of them. Usually, at our con, two to four prizes are handed out to each event, with the first place winner having first pick, on down the line. This family will all band together to wipe out the one or two people facing them (they never play games with more than six entree spots) and then play with each other for the remaining time. Then, of course, they take ALL of the prizes and divvy them up between themselves.

I dont know about everyone else, but I hate them. If they sign up for an event, I take my name off of it. If I am running an event and they sign up for it, I cancel it. I refuse to allow them to ruin other people's good times.

Never heard of a sportsmanship score until this site. While I dont (in general) think it is necessary, I can see where consistently dealing with a few bad apples would ruin it for everyone else and make such a thing a necessity.

chromedog wrote:There ARE people for whom winning is the only acceptable outcome. They tend to be very bad losers. We have several in my club (they throw tantrums and dice and occasionally models when they underperform).

Then you have bad winners. Gloating is one thing. Excessive gloating is another. It's mandollies, not global peacemaking. If your ego is so fragile that it needs the stroking of winning at the game, then get some help.

Sports scores here help keep their numbers down. If I want to see tantrums, I can babysit my 3 year old nephew.

Throwing those people out also keeps their number down.

There are different components to sportsmanship for me:

Slowhammers vs unintentional slow play. I have run into people with a super small army, that consistently play slow trying to gain an advantage. I feel this is poor sportsmanship. Its a game, win or loss, its just that. But I have to say, if i'm dropping $50 to play in a GT, I don't want to play a guy who consistently plays slow. Now, for those guys who have horde armies, no complaints if it takes you 10 mins to move, i'll even help you do it!

Also, people who are just down right rude and obnoxious. I'm all about kidding around in games, laughing when stuff goes wrong, joining in with my opponent laughing and my bad luck. But I played a guy in a tournment who consistently rolled his dice off the opponents models. He called it "his pimp roll." I asked him 2x during the game to not do it, he did it a third, I calmly during my turn showed him how much time I took painting, and converting my entire army. He did it a 4th, I asked him the attempting to knock over models intention, his answer "yes, i'm not going to win, so this is my fun." I zero'd him for sports, army comp, and painting, Then informed the judge why, and the judge agreed. People like that have no business in a GT/tournment. They should stay home and play yatzee.

For the most part though: i do not think there should even be a sportsmanship award or score. Some one gets caught intentionally cheating, boot them out. Or dock their scores and give their opponents wins. Seriously, most GT players are adults, or teenagers who are 16-18, they should know how to act, and I don't see the point in giving out gold stars for good behaviors.

Reading the replies I still find it very strange that people think we need a carrot on a stick so that people aren't jerks when they play.

Rules are very easily handled by a judge and that should be what stops people from cheating not a soft score.

I guess the culture of war gamers is just that bad that they need some incentive to play nice...(at least that is what I am getting)

Not if they are using the wrong edition of the rules. Also, how many people here have had judges that are able to watch all the games all the time. Nobody wants to play "That guy" whom runs to the judge for anything that think he is being cheated. Sportsmanship scores allows the players to regulate themselves.

Timmah wrote:Reading the replies I still find it very strange that people think we need a carrot on a stick so that people aren't jerks when they play.

Rules are very easily handled by a judge and that should be what stops people from cheating not a soft score.

I guess the culture of war gamers is just that bad that they need some incentive to play nice...(at least that is what I am getting)

The one thing that you never addressed is the lure of those scores in bringing in new players. There are some people who are intimidated by tourney play. Why go if they are just gonna lose? But if they can find out that nothing is set in stone and you can have a good time, lose and still have a chance at something they will still come. Bringing in new players is the lifeline of GW. I just got into this game this year and will begin playing tourneys next year (need a bit more experience on painting / strategery). I am trying to get a few buddies of mine to join me with the same endeavor. That Tourney Fear seems to be the only thing holding them back.

As for Magic I have done my fair share of tourneys as well. I consider you lucky in only meeting one asshat. Though honestly that is not what did it for me in MTG. My end came to their never ending expansions pushing out blocks of cards every four months. So by the time you come up with a good list the next expansions blow it right out of play.

Another note; I have noticed the lists going to Tourney play are like that of Magic. Those online lists tend to be very popular but not as common as in Magic. God if you knew 90% of the army lists were going to be the same at a Tournament you could rip it apart. Maybe thats why not everyone is an idiot like that. Hence my attraction to WH40K tourneys.

Sorry for wall text and yes since I have not attended a sanctioned GW tourney I do not know fully what it is all about. Next year though will see if I have my head up my ass about this sportsmanship thing. I do look forward to possibly meeting some of ya Dakkanites.

I agree with Hod - you need a sportsmanship score because the rules are poorly defined and very open to abuse.

Consider the following differences between MtG and Warhammer:

MtG: You either play a card, or you do not.
Warhammer: I intentionally mismeasure and move my guy 7" instead of 6".

MtG: Everything is state-based. I can undo the game, turn-by-turn, and get to the initial state. A judge can evaluate the current position and know, instantly, if shenanigans took place.

Warhammer: I can roll dice too quickly for you to count. I can pick up my hits, accidentally grabbing a few misses with slight of hand. I can then outright lie to you and tell you that I inflicted more wounds than I did. The judge has no way of knowing.


MtG: There are very specific requirements that indicate things like marked cards or stacked decks. Judges are free to tell players that they must 'resleeve' a deck that exhibits any sign of marking.

Warhammer: I can play magical-transport, and have my squads switch rides midgame, and my opponent has no recourse.

MtG: each card does exactly one thing, regardless of the artwork. Older versions of cards are considered to work with the newest wording.

Warhammer: I can model a battlewagon 2" tall, and a warbuggy 4" tall, and screen the wagon with the buggy. I can model for advantages. I can make conversions that mount guns on turrets instead of hulls.

The list goes on... You have to trust your opponent a lot more in 40k. Requiring trust means that you expect them to be good sportsmen, and having a score helps to make that so.

I personally like soft scores in tournaments.

Of the two venues I play at, one plays with soft scores, one does not. In the most recent tournaments I played, the one that does not have soft scores had a couple of players spaz because of bad dice luck; the one which uses soft scores did not. Same number of players, but different crowds. The soft-scores crowd is different than the non-soft scores crowd - the tournaments attact a different scene.

The other side effect is that the armies that show up are much more enjoyable to play against - the tournament without soft scores had 75% of lists as one of Dark Elves, Daemons, VC. The other one? Only one Daemon army showed and only one Dark Elf army showed.