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Hi guys, recent polite dispute in a game - is the interaction between Jinx and invulnerable saves spelt out anywhere? The closest I can find to black-and-white is the Big FAQ where there's mention of invulnerable's benefiting from a +1; are we just making an assumption based on the negative corollary?

The actual text of the jinx spells it out clearly: "your opponent must subtract 1 from all saving throws".

I could see it causing some questions but it's fairly black and white. There may be an faq or official response but I dont have it off-hand.

According to the BRB, invuln saves are "never modified by a weapons AP value".

Doesn't say anything else regarding other modifiers, so if a power or ability modifies "saving throws", then invulns are affected as well.

The opposite question is in the errata:

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.


That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.

Thanks chaps. I think Spartacus has the closest answer for me; in hindsight my opponents logic chain (which I slipped into as well, to be fair) was that the invulnerable was what he'd already been modified down to (i.e that he'd gone from a 3+ to a 'firewall' of 5++) rather than the intended which is "I'm choosing to take my invulnerable save instead of my armour save".

We'll get there eventually! Again, thank you all.

Doesn't jinx affect the rolls rather than the save itself? I'm away from the book but I think that's the difference.

Essentially king, yes, that seems to be it. The mistake is in perception, I think, and in my not really knowing (at the time) how to put it. But next time our group meets up I'll be fine.

hvg3akaek wrote:
The opposite question is in the errata:

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.


That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.

When and where was this? b.c it could be referring to cover saves or alike. Not arguing mostly just asking.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

hvg3akaek wrote:
The opposite question is in the errata:

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.


That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.

When and where was this? b.c it could be referring to cover saves or alike. Not arguing mostly just asking.

First entry on page 8 of the rulebook FAQ.

Also, cover saves are slightly different, in that they specifically state modification of the armour save, not any save.

kingheff wrote:
Doesn't jinx affect the rolls rather than the save itself? I'm away from the book but I think that's the difference.

It is. Players typically just shorthand it as a modified save value, as opposed to a modified save roll. You still need to meet the same threshold to make the save, you just have a little help doing it as opposed to having an easier threshold to meet.

Hi guys, I'm coming back to 40k after long break and gonna play Craftworlds. Can you suggest me what should I buy for start? I thought about buying Farseer, guardians, dire avengers and wave serpent. Is it a good idea if I want to start with small battles?

woodgun wrote:
Hi guys, I'm coming back to 40k after long break and gonna play Craftworlds. Can you suggest me what should I buy for start? I thought about buying Farseer, guardians, dire avengers and wave serpent. Is it a good idea if I want to start with small battles?

If you're coming back at a fairly casual level look at the Craftworld half of the Wake the Dead box. It's a pretty solid starting patrol detachment. Supplement it with a Start Collecting and you're off to the races with a reasonable assortment of viable (but not bleeding edge) units.

The battleforce box set coming out for Christmas is a steal, farseer, 10 guardians, 5 avengers, 3 wind riders, a vyper and a wraithknight for £100 I believe. Combine that with the start collecting box and/or the eldar half of wake the dead and you've got a decent amount of units to build up from.

That's exactly what I'm doing heff! It's a great time to start CW...

I really wish they hadn't put in the Wraithknight, but given how much trash they are in 8th I can't blame GW for trying to clear stock on a model nobody wants right now.

Sterling191 wrote:
I really wish they hadn't put in the Wraithknight, but given how much trash they are in 8th I can't blame GW for trying to clear stock on a model nobody wants right now.

Patience. CA might make them somewhat worthwhile again. Although it would take about a 100pt drop for that to happen

-

5++ across all loadouts, rising to 4++ with the shield, would do the job imo.

 grouchoben wrote:
5++ across all loadouts, rising to 4++ with the shield, would do the job imo.

Alternatively, give WKs spirit stones, because they literally have tons of them. And drop their points cost to be on par with IKs. That would do the job right

-

In terms of the Wraithknight, i'm expecting a big drop.

There is a picture in the news and rumour CA leaks thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766923.page

showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.

 grouchoben wrote:
That's exactly what I'm doing heff! It's a great time to start CW...

It really is, the stuff may not be the best options going but you get plenty of them and they will give you an eldar looking eldar army.
Shame they didn't put an autarch in this new box, or at least a farseer on bike.

Kdash wrote:
In terms of the Wraithknight, i'm expecting a big drop.

There is a picture in the news and rumour CA leaks thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766923.page

showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.

I've seen that. I'll be honest the WK isn't my jam, even at a reasonable points cost (which we're easily more than 100 points away from right now).

I'm *much* more interested at WW and WL changes cause I'd love to put a bunch of those on the table.

Kdash wrote:
In terms of the Wraithknight, i'm expecting a big drop.

There is a picture in the news and rumour CA leaks thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766923.page

showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.

That's a big drop, but there are a lot of the the units that they're pushing out in their boxes so maybe they want to give you a reason to buy them. It'd be great if a wraith heavy list was a more optimal option.

Oh i fully agree Sterling and Kingheff.

I'm interested in the Knight reduction, but, boy oh boy am i excited about the idea of running Lords and Blades again!

Awesome if true! I already run WW and WL ‘cause the models are so cool - and hoping to pick up a WK for Crimbo for same reason.

I’ve also just picked up a squadron of 3 oldskool Warwalkers on eBay which I’m going to magnetize to take different weapons (I have a bunch spare), so if they’re cheaper too all to the good!

They’re coming with 40mm rounds, but I don’t think that’s big enough - anyone who has the old models, do you recommend 50mm or 60mm?

Also,now that split-fire is a thing, what do folks think of 3 Warwalkers with A Bright Lance and Starcannon/Shuricannon each? Playing Beil-Tan

I haven't played in about 6 months and was putting a list together...when I stumbled on this.

It is not game breaking....but a lot would cry foul...It does seem to be in the letter of the rules.

Remnant of Blazing Star of Vaul.

It states any character with a shuriken pistol or shuriken catapult.

Then it states one shuriken weapon gets the +2 attacks.

So far the index autarch with an avenger shuriken catapult is the only character I can see that can use this slip.

Still a 4 shot avenger shuriken catapult with a reaper launcher could be nice on a warlord with the Incomparable Hunter.

Even with split fire, I’d try to keep your guns with similar range brackets. So no mixing shuricannons with the other guns. One could also argue about mixing MLs in there as well, but I think there is more of an issue in mixing 24" and 36” then 48/36.

I think running them pure shurican, especially with Beil-Tan, makes for a decent fire and forget backfield harassment unit. They come with their own re-rolls, so can work fine unsupported.

The other guns probably want to hang out closer to a seer for some buffs. With all those guns in one unit, you can leverage a singe cast of your powers farther. Mixing makes more sense here. Brightlance/Starcannon could be nasty, and threaten a large swath of your opponent’s table.

YMMV.

 admironheart wrote:
I haven't played in about 6 months and was putting a list together...when I stumbled on this.

It is not game breaking....but a lot would cry foul...It does seem to be in the letter of the rules.

Remnant of Blazing Star of Vaul.

It states any character with a shuriken pistol or shuriken catapult.

Then it states one shuriken weapon gets the +2 attacks.

So far the index autarch with an avenger shuriken catapult is the only character I can see that can use this slip.

Still a 4 shot avenger shuriken catapult with a reaper launcher could be nice on a warlord with the Incomparable Hunter.

Blazing Star of Vaul was changed in the faq to work on pistols or twin lined shuriken catapults like the ones on jet bikes

 clodax66 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I haven't played in about 6 months and was putting a list together...when I stumbled on this.

It is not game breaking....but a lot would cry foul...It does seem to be in the letter of the rules.

Remnant of Blazing Star of Vaul.

It states any character with a shuriken pistol or shuriken catapult.

Then it states one shuriken weapon gets the +2 attacks.

So far the index autarch with an avenger shuriken catapult is the only character I can see that can use this slip.

Still a 4 shot avenger shuriken catapult with a reaper launcher could be nice on a warlord with the Incomparable Hunter.

Blazing Star of Vaul was changed in the faq to work on pistols or twin lined shuriken catapults like the ones on jet bikes

It was changed so that you could use it only if you had at least one of those weapons, you can still upgrade any shuriken weapon the model carries.

 Nevelon wrote:
Even with split fire, I’d try to keep your guns with similar range brackets. So no mixing shuricannons with the other guns. One could also argue about mixing MLs in there as well, but I think there is more of an issue in mixing 24" and 36” then 48/36.

I think running them pure shurican, especially with Beil-Tan, makes for a decent fire and forget backfield harassment unit. They come with their own re-rolls, so can work fine unsupported.

The other guns probably want to hang out closer to a seer for some buffs. With all those guns in one unit, you can leverage a singe cast of your powers farther. Mixing makes more sense here. Brightlance/Starcannon could be nasty, and threaten a large swath of your opponent’s table.

YMMV.

Points value notwithstanding, a three-pack of WWs with a Starcannon / Brightlance pairing is a pretty nifty target for Guide (or Biel-tan WL mini-Guide).

Going to try to build this list for a future tournament. (have not played a tournament in 15+ years)


only 9 cps and still a whopping 12 drops....so much for a small mech elder list lol

Rangers in reserve.
10 defender guardians in a wave Serpent with CTM
8 storm guardians and 3 dark reapers in Serpent
Banshees and Dragons in the Falcon
The Autarch with the Wings goes in 1 tank as well. He deploys and moves 12"+ advances with tanks to add Path of Command
tanks form a line with Serpents in frong and flanked by vypers and jetbikes who hide as best they can behind tanks. Night Spinner brings up the Rear Flank
Farseer flys in the middle of the tanks.
Nova Lance Autarch waits for his target to charge and destroy.
Crimson Hunter does his thing in the back til he needs to block chargers.

I have not played a flyer since the first month of 8th ed. and never played the Crimson Hunter....but I hear it is good.

I think I have decent fire power and good mobility. Not much hth (storm guardians are more for screens and stuff)

Thoughts or concerns????

thanks

I am thinking of the Warlord trait that adds 2" to the move speed so the Warlord will move at 14" . But I could give him Iyandens trait for a 3rd Deny the Witch roll.