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Necron_Mason wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Da W wrote:
If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.

I don't understand how you're doing this.

I think they mean if the enemy gets close enough your deployment zone that they would be in range of shooting, can you deepstrike a unit into your deployment zone to shoot at them. If so, the answer is yes since you are allowed to deepstrike into your deployment zone.

This. 24'' range you can possibly deepstrike T1 on your zone and still be able to strike agressive enemies. You stay close to your cryptek to boot!

Da W wrote:

Necron_Mason wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Da W wrote:
If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.

I don't understand how you're doing this.

I think they mean if the enemy gets close enough your deployment zone that they would be in range of shooting, can you deepstrike a unit into your deployment zone to shoot at them. If so, the answer is yes since you are allowed to deepstrike into your deployment zone.

This. 24'' range you can possibly deepstrike T1 on your zone and still be able to strike agressive enemies. You stay close to your cryptek to boot!

I am actually planning on running a Nephrekh Cryptek to teleport in next to the Destroyers. With the Nephrekh Dynastic Code, the Cryptek can keep up with the Destroyers with a 5" move + 6" advance to provide constant RP buffs, plus a 5++ from shooting whenever I can afford a Chorometron to protect them from the high AP/high Damage shooting that is bound to come their way. Things start to get hilarious if I give the Cryptek VoD.

Trigger warning: if you hate numbers or are a casual player - turn away.

Damage/durability per point charts: https://imgur.com/a/gqOOTTc
Mix damage means ranged+melee. (shoot and charge in the same turn)
Green is good. Red is bad. Compared against AdMech, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Tyranids and some outlier great units like obliterators and such.

Units to take with a pinch of salt: DDA because the guns are very different; C'Tan units because it's impossible to count how much damage the powers do. I went with about 3-4 MW per power to have a number.

About mathhammer:
Mathhammer is a tool for competitive players to help evaluate the units. You can compare very similar units: destroyers and heavy destroyers and see that destroyers are more efficient against every target when you pop the stratagem. You can find which unit is the best for the role you need: screen, anti-horde, anti-elite. You can find which unit to spend buffs on or maybe if buffs are just not worth it. Obviously mathhammer doesn't take into account movement, range and obscure rules that don't dirrectly inpact damage/survivability. That you have to evaluate for yourself, however mathammer will tell you, for example "this unit is TERRIBLE for its points. Is this ability/movement/range really worth this many points?"



You can get the xls in my signature bellow




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stuff I've learned:
destroyers outperform heavy destroyers against every target if you pop the stratagem.
Wraiths, unless you're taking them to screen, should be taken with particle.
Destroyers do about the same as DDAs against high T targets with invul saves. They outperform DDAs period if you pop the stratagem (which you should)
Gauss Immortals are just terrible if not in RF range. Even with -1 to hit - just take tesla
Anhiliation Barge SUCKS. Straight up worst unit in the codex

What do you guys think of void-praets

Full review from the mathhammer perspective:

Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.

Shooters:

Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs
Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.

Mixed:

Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.

Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Mathhanmer

Spoiler:

Trigger warning: if you hate numbers or are a casual player - turn away.

Damage/durability per point charts: https://imgur.com/a/gqOOTTc
Mix damage means ranged+melee. (shoot and charge in the same turn)
Green is good. Red is bad. Compared against AdMech, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Tyranids and some outlier great units like obliterators and such.

Units to take with a pinch of salt: DDA because the guns are very different; C'Tan units because it's impossible to count how much damage the powers do. I went with about 3-4 MW per power to have a number.

About mathhammer:
Mathhammer is a tool for competitive players to help evaluate the units. You can compare very similar units: destroyers and heavy destroyers and see that destroyers are more efficient against every target when you pop the stratagem. You can find which unit is the best for the role you need: screen, anti-horde, anti-elite. You can find which unit to spend buffs on or maybe if buffs are just not worth it. Obviously mathhammer doesn't take into account movement, range and obscure rules that don't dirrectly inpact damage/survivability. That you have to evaluate for yourself, however mathammer will tell you, for example "this unit is TERRIBLE for its points. Is this ability/movement/range really worth this many points?"



You can get the xls in my signature bellow




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stuff I've learned:
destroyers outperform heavy destroyers against every target if you pop the stratagem.
Wraiths, unless you're taking them to screen, should be taken with particle.
Destroyers do about the same as DDAs against high T targets with invul saves. They outperform DDAs period if you pop the stratagem (which you should)
Gauss Immortals are just terrible if not in RF range. Even with -1 to hit - just take tesla
Anhiliation Barge SUCKS. Straight up worst unit in the codex

Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.

Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?

Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?

Wow, so Night Scythe is not worse than Annihilation Barge, huh?
Go figure.
(I would have thought the lack of QS would have landed it in the worst spot).
Still not worth taking, regardless.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.

Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?

Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?

First is already there: Destroyer Stratagem vs Heavy Destroyer MWBD (destroyers win)
Second is: closer but destroyers still win
Third: destroyers still edge out heavies.

Combined with the fact that you pay 7 points for the same body... :/
The only thing that's different is 36'' vs 24'', which is a pretty big deal. I think mixing them is bad since then you remove the one good thing about heavies (staying back 36'')

Angusman wrote:
What do you guys think of void-praets

It's the default configuration for me

Angusman wrote:
What do you guys think of void-praets

Best configuration. Terrible unit.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.

Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?

Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?

First is already there: Destroyer Stratagem vs Heavy Destroyer MWBD (destroyers win)
Second is: closer but destroyers still win
Third: destroyers still edge out heavies.

Combined with the fact that you pay 7 points for the same body... :/
The only thing that's different is 36'' vs 24'', which is a pretty big deal. I think mixing them is bad since then you remove the one good thing about heavies (staying back 36'')

Remember their bases are big, having a heavy in there means you could be in range of MWBD from a backfield overlord and still have all bodies shoot if the last link of the daisy chain is a heavy destroyer

Angusman wrote:
What do you guys think of void-praets

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/04/18/the-celestial-orrery-the-necron-thunderdome-part-1/

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Angusman wrote:
What do you guys think of void-praets

Best configuration. Terrible unit.

They really need to release a Silent King supplement, with himself and special bonus rules for Praetorians & Stalkers (plus new Harbinger HQs and the Void Dragon Super-Heavy Shard, obviously) to make them useful again.
Maybe Forge World will oblige us?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Full review from the mathhammer perspective:

Spoiler:

Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.

Shooters:

Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs
Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.

Mixed:

Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.

Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Full review from the mathhammer perspective:

Spoiler:

Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.

Shooters:

Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs
Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.

Mixed:

Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.

Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.

I appreciate the mathhammer input, but some of these seem counterintuitive, at least when you start to consider lists and dynastic codes.

For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points.

Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility?

There's really too many variables to consider to conclude that we should always use one particular build.

Overlord is about +28pts(87pts cheapest, at 30pts he'd be above average without the ability. Immortals are 170 pts, he improves them by 50%. So 170/2-57=28) of pure value if you cast MWBD on 10 tesla immortals.

Lord needs to be 25pts to be good without the ability. He buffs by 16%, so he needs 76-25=51 pts to compensate. So he needs to buff at least 320pts worth of stuff to be good

Cryptek is a lot harder to evaluate. Vanilla he needs to compensate 50 pts. So about 100 pts of RP stuff. The cloak for 5 pts is a steal though. That's insane.

Named characters just seem meh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points. "

Why is that? Can't you shoot them with the stratagem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility? "

Well you should ALWAYS go tesla. It's just straight up better.

Regarding the Nightbringer, are you assuming that he's wounding on a 2+ or S7? I haven't had the opportunity to test him myself but it seems like the Nightbringer's special rule would come into play against some pretty significant targets in the meta, such as daemon princes and hive tyrants, so it might be worth looking at him specifically against those targets.

Yes I am assuming that he's wounding on 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So after all this my list will probably be something like

or
+DDA
-1 wraith
-1 wraith particle
-2 immortals

But that's because I love the vault and don't like spam
A better list would probably be destroyer spam or Vault spam

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Spoiler:

Overlord is about +28pts(87pts cheapest, at 30pts he'd be above average without the ability. Immortals are 170 pts, he improves them by 50%. So 170/2-57=28) of pure value if you cast MWBD on 10 tesla immortals.

Lord needs to be 25pts to be good without the ability. He buffs by 16%, so he needs 76-25=51 pts to compensate. So he needs to buff at least 320pts worth of stuff to be good

Cryptek is a lot harder to evaluate. Vanilla he needs to compensate 50 pts. So about 100 pts of RP stuff. The cloak for 5 pts is a steal though. That's insane.

Named characters just seem meh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points. "

Why is that? Can't you shoot them with the stratagem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility? "

Well you should ALWAYS go tesla. It's just straight up better.

Well, the key benefit for Nephrekh Wraiths is that you can advance a guaranteed 6" and charge (with the stratagem). If you advance, you can't shoot pistols. Again, many variables; you would generally want to keep your wraiths locking stuff up with their mobility, i.e. bounce around tying down units in assault. By doing so, your pistols are somewhat wasted.

In the Mephrit case, gauss will outperform against anything that sports a save better than 4+, as long as you can guarantee getting within 12". Yet again, it does depend on the variables of what you have in your list. Do you need up close firepower for 2+/3+ armour targets? Gauss is your thing, not tesla. Do you already have plenty of horde clearing firepower (e.g. a Vault or two), then gauss patches that gap.

Don't get me wrong, your numbers are sound and a real help. But we can't use those in a vacuum to decide on a single go-to build or loadout. Except for maybe destroyers, who are quite clearly a standout.

Adaptive Subroutines lets you both shoot and charge after advancing, not just charge.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Adaptive Subroutines lets you both shoot and charge after advancing, not just charge.

Ah my mistake. I missed that. Ok then yes, particle casters ftw, if you build around that stratagem

Mephrit MWBD makes Tesla > Gauss even in RF range against anything not 2+. I think leave the 2+ to the destroyers and Vault powers anyway. Without MWBD Tesla is exacly equal to Gauss against 4+. Gauss is a little better against 3+. Which is a big problem. You have to get them within 12'' and they're STILL just a "little" better against their most optimal targets. Gauss is just not worth the hassle IMO.

Except that -1 to hit modifiers are pretty common in the meta. Once you start accounting for those tesla gets worse and against a -2 to hit tesla is the worse option. My battalion has been:
10x tesla immortal
10x tesla immortal
10x gauss immortal.

Tesla is usually better,but not always and -1 to hit is common enough it must be taken into consideration. I cannot speak yet on tomb blades as ive tried both tesla and gauss and they perform roughly the same. More testing is needed.

90% of -1s are within 12''. So it's either Tesla vs RF Gauss or no proc Tesla vs Normal Gauss. In both cases Tesla wins a lot more often(especially so considering that most things within 12'' will be low armor screens). Which is what you should build for when creating a list: doing better more often than not.

Ugh, it feels like the Tesla/Gauss debate will go on until the End Times of 40K ....

So, to summarize:

12" range:
Gauss > Tesla against units with 4+ sv or higher.

24"
Tesla > Gauss, even with -1 to hit not proccing the Tesla effect.

Mephrit:
12" range
Tesla > Gauss against any units apart from 2+ sv or higher.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

And what about all these scenario's, but the Immortals are effected by MWBD? Any changes to who's more effective where?

12" range:
Gauss>Tesla Barelly against 4+. With MWBD on both, tesla is better against 4+ and only a bit worse vs 3+

24"
Tesla > Gauss, even with -1 to hit not proccing the Tesla effect. Yes, straight up. Non-RF gauss immortals are AWFUL. Non-RF Gauss warriors are actually better against most targets.

Mephrit:
12" range
Gauss>Tesla against 3+ or better. With MWBD, only 2+ or better.

12" range gauss and tesla are equal against 5+, its only 6+ and worse saves that tesla are actually better than gauss.

otherwise I agree that it's a challenge to have a meaningful presence of immortals <12" from enemies.

A silly list designed as an FU to the big FAQs attempt to stop 1st turn alpha strikes:



So if you go first the whole 2000pts drops in the opponents face on turn 1. 7 drops gives you a good chance of getting the +1 to go first (Mono and 2x Immortals are 1 drop). Silly but could be fun once.

chaddwick2005 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6 DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.

I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.

I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.

You are trying to treat "attack" as a specific term with it's own definition in the rules. It is not defined in this way by the rules, merely used with it's normal meaning in the English language. This is commonly known as rules lawyering.

But would you really use immortals without MWBD? Since with that Tesla is better up until 3+

Got in another game with the Crons over the past weekend. Here's a summary and my thoughts, for those interested.

It was 1500 points per player, 2v2. Necrons and Tau vs. Tau and Chaos Space Marines. The Chaos player is still relatively new and doesn't fully grasp the tactics of the game, but his Tau partner is pretty knowledgeable.

My list was as follows:


We rolled for the Night Fight battle zone, which meant shooting at range was difficult, and the gametype was the maelstrom mission Contact Lost (you draw more cards each turn based on how many objectives you control). We won first turn, and I used the Translocation Beams to keep the Gauss Immortals in reserves. We scored our first objective that turn, and all of my stuff, my Ghost Ark, some Scarabs, Wraiths, and my Overlord all rushed forward 16-18" because of the dynasty. The Tesla Immortals stayed bunkered down with the cryptek in cover on an objective. Popped the Adaptive Subroutines and the Wraiths pulled off a turn 1 charge, getting first blood against a chaos marine squad and securing an objective.

The enemy kept spending command points to light up my Ghost Ark, but couldn't realistically do much damage to it, and a few turns I popped Quantum Deflection just to be safe, but they whiffed their rolls anyway. The chaos moved up one flank and the Tau on the other, but they couldn't get many objectives complete during the game.

Turn 2 I brought in my deathmarks and almost killed a Cadre Fireblade, but then were just annoying the rest of the game and didn't accomplish much. The Gauss Immortals came down in a ruin on an objective and just camped, which was handy. My other units just zipped around, causing mayhem while my Tau buddy protected our deployment zone. My warlord seemed pretty resilient. He charged into a unit of Khorne Berserkers and almost wiped them out in CC himself before retreating and shooting them. The Wraiths did work. Killed more than their fair share of points I would say: a rhino, chaos space marines, 6x stealthsuits, a broadside. Scarabs were just awesome in general. Cheap, and annoying. Overall I had great board control and we netted a lot of victory points, winning us the game. Nephrekh is a lot of fun.

We're planning on playing again this week, but we may plan an "apoc" level game, because my friend wants to bring his 4x riptides, two Surges, his battlesuits, and all his other stuff. Will do Sautekh again for the big game, but if we play another smaller game I'll prolly give Novokh a good go.