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Some quick thoughts after giving the beta codex a few read-throughs and giving it some time to soak in.
1.) Outrider detachments are by far the easiest to fill for Newcrons. Units of scarabs are a very easy and quick way to fill Fast Attack slots with bite-size units. Scarabs are always useful for objective grabbing, denying deepstrikes, bubblewrap and gnawing on things. The scarab units can be bolstered if players are worried about easy kill points, but Outriders end up being a way to minimize the "tax" associated with getting a unit or two a particular dynasty bonus. Additionally, the FA options in our codex are very strong, with both tomb blades, destroyers and wraiths getting significant buffs from the index.
2.) Taking an optimized diverse list quickly results in a lot of bloat/HQ tax. Many of the strong or core units we want to take function best with different dynasty codes. An example would be a non-Mephrit force wanting to take a cheap detachment to get the Mephrit dynasty code on some Tomb blades and Doomsday ark. Naturally, an Outrider would be the best fit with 39 point token scarab units, but having to have a HQ creates a 80-140 point tax on the unit. For those same points, you could buy 3-4 extra tomb blades or 5 immortals. A token Mephrit HQ probably isn't going to pull its weight in points, and the additional AP on a unit of tomb blades and a doomsday cannon probably is less useful than just having the extra bodies/shots from the 3-4 extra tomb blades or immortals in a different dynasty.
3.) I think the best basic Dynasty is Nephrekh. An automatic 6" advance and being able to ignore other models and terrain is incredibly powerful for getting to objectives and just generally achieving points. Translocation Crypt is also a hum-dinger of stratagem. I like that each dynasty code is useful or "fits best" for different units, as it makes the choice difficult of what to slot each unit into and makes crafting optimized detachments difficult.
4.) We obviously want as much CP as possible, but with our expensive and not-so-grand HQ choices beyond the first 1-2, I don't think it will be best to go for 3-4 detachments that requires 3-5 HQ. I think we might function best simply letting go of our 8+ CP dreams and coming to terms with only having 5-8 per standard game.
5.) Sautekh is very intriguing by itself as it holds the greatest CP potential. Its dynasty specific relic allows for a 33% more CP per game. Packing 6 CP? On average, with the sautekh relic, you'll get a functional 8CP! Sautekh also contains the most characters, one of which is Imotekh - who by himself gives a basic +1CP and functions like 2 Overlords worth of; MWBD. Points-wise, he is probably a strict upgrade other than being less flexible (can't be in two places at once) and having less total wounds, but his extras likely make up for it. The biggest problem with Imotekh is that he only counts as 1 HQ but takes up 200 points of HQ-point-space. This is a problem because if you try for multiple detachments / dynasty codes to optimize the passive abilities, you quickly end up spending ~500 points on 3-4 HQs. This is likely part of the reason he comes with a built-in CP - GW realized what he did to necron detachments/list building and basically gave us a hint that if you're taking him, you will likely end up taking one last detachment in your army.
6.) Wraiths - we aren't sure yet whether they will be D2 (with a large price hike) or D1, but it seems clear they will at least be AP2 now. The answer to how much damage they deal per attack may help with my decision on whether they run best as Nephrekh or Novokh.
Nephrekh: they are stupidly fast. The automatic 6" advance is nuts when they can use a strategem to charge after advancing. They will literally ignore everything - screening units, terrain, and just straight up charge you from 20-30" away.
Novokh: Wraiths will be charging in, falling backing, charging back in, or being charged themselves 100% of the time, so them getting to reroll their to-hit rolls is extremely powerful, especially if they end up being AP2 D2 per attack.
7.) The interplay between our armies (aka our HQs) buffs and keywords is critical to newcrons success. The lack of the <Dynasty> keyword from some units - the inclusion or lack of the "Infantry" label for others makes choosing the optimal HQ for a detachment tricky. An example is Destroyers are infantry, but tomb blades are not for MWBD purposes. You want to make sure your Overlords, Lords, and Crypteks have the correct - in dynasty - units to buff. This is another reason why "tax" or token HQs in a detachment to get some units with the right dynasty codes can be a trap resulting in the HQ not being even remotely useful. Szeras gets a special note here as being a great "tax" HQ to put into a small detachment, as he can deploy and do whatever he wants and doesn't care about what detachment you put him in.
With the above thoughts in mind, I came up with some detachments/modules that could slot in or out of armies; or which can make up the core of an army. I think two of the hardest decision are whether to bring two overlords just just the one Imotekh, and relatedly, whether to take 2 or 3 detachments. The points are obviously in flux since we don't know if beta codex or forgebane or index is most accurate currently.
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Outrider (+1 CP) – 468 pts
[HQ] Cryptek – Canoptek cloak(+10pts), Staff of Light (+10pts) = 90 pts
o ^^^ OR use Illuminor Szeras – who deploys with Immortals/Warriors^^^
[FA] x6 Destroyers = 300 pts
[FA] x3 Scarabs = 39 pts
[FA] x3 Scarabs = 39 pts
Self-Destruction – 1 CP – scarab explodes to deal d3 mortal wounds on a 2+
Extermination Protocols – 1 CP – Destroyers reroll hit & wound rolls one shooting phase
Translocation Crypt – 1 CP – Unit deepstrike @ end of movement phase (isn’t deployed)
Adaptive Subroutines – 1 CP – Canoptek unit can still shoot/charge after advancing.
Disruption Fields – 1 CP – necron infantry unit increases str. by 1 until end of the phase
Blood Rites – 3 CP – a unit fights a second time in the fight phase
The Novokh Outrider detachment is mostly for fun, and was a test to see if it would be worth it to create a Novokh detachment in an otherwise shooting army for the sake of a unit of Wraiths. The inclusion of lychguard is more for fun, but it then necessitated bringing a veil of darkness overlord - and if you're doing that, you might as well give it implacable conqueror to go for that ~65-75% chance of a turn 1 charge.
I think competitively, the lychguard might not be worth including, and should instead be replaced with another unit of wraiths. This would allow one of the Sautekh overlords to get the 5+ CP-refund warlord trait - one of the primary reasons of bringing the Sautekh battalion in the first place. If not bringing Imotekh or the Sautekh warlord trait for more CPs, I think the battalion would be better off being Mephrit and then you could throw in some Tomb Blades & Doomsday Arks with them.
Other units / packages I am interested in slotting into detachments:
I think it has a large deficiency of anti-tank, but the hope would be deepstriking, exterminating destroyers + doomsday ark can hopefully deal with some armor but it would then likely rely on wraiths and scarabs trying to tie down the rest (and likely fail >.< . I think 2 DDA and a tesseract ark might be staple anti-armor selections for necrons. Especially if they are Mephrit....all 3 are very very good at killing armor and then equally as scary at closer ranges when they use their secondary firing options/guns to put out a very impressive amount of anti-infantry shots.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 06:39:08
Grimgold wrote: So to expand on my last post, I wanted to cover the big change 8th ed will bring, salads.
Spoiler:
The most taken faction for a salad will undoubtedly be Novokh, the Dynasty code is great for certain units but you wouldn't want it on your whole army. It's a straight 22% upgrade for units hitting on 3s and a 25% upgrade for units hitting on 4s.
Since Novokh will be a splash and not a main course, you'll run the code in a 1cp detachment, two contenders for that vanguard and outrider. Vanguard gives you access to flayed ones and lychguard, but having to take three of them is kind of a drag. The better option I think would be outrider, grab a unit of wraiths (who get much more efficient with Novokh), two units of scarabs, and then add lychguard or flayed ones as suits your fancy.
That leaves us with two detachments to fill out, and since we need command points there has to be some kind of battalion. Choice of dynasty for this battalion is between three dynasties, Sautekh, Nephrek or Mephrit. Sautekh is in the running because of hyperlogic strategist will end up being an extra two or three CP, their code isn't bad on infantry, and warriors/immortals are the most likely to use their unique stratagem. Nephrek is on the list because teleporting durable obsec units 11" to capture/disrupt objectives is a good enough trick to build a list around, and placing units into deep strike reserve for a CP is also pretty hot. Mephrit is ok on it's own, but infantry are not likely to get into half range of units they want to get into half range of, so you'll take Mephrit to share Buffs and HQ abilities with the third detachment.
The third detachment is a no brainer, mephrit outrider. Destroyers and tomb blades are much too valuable to leave out of a list, and since they don't really benefit from the Novokh code, spinning them into their own detachment with a seperate code makes sense. Mephrit is the obvious winner here since you can expect fast units to get in close, and talent for annihilation is a solid damage boost.
what do you guys think, that seem like the correct outline for necron salad?
Rather than let our tomb ships pass in the night, let us engage! Parley! Confer! Converse!
I've been struggling with two main questions:
1.) Should we bring 2 detachments, or 3 detachments (7 CP vs. 8 CP ( +1 extra CP if you have Imotekh in there); and
2.) Is the Sautekh warlord trait of getting (on average) an extra 3-4 CP (you can even count the reroll as an additional CP if you want to be fancy : P ) worth taking in most competitive lists?
I guess if you combine or boil these two questions down you get "how important is getting an 1-4 extra CP in a Necron army" and "to what extent should we value CP over otherwise optimized (meaning based on variables other than CP) unit selections/armies."
Using CP for clutch re-rolls is pumpkin-spice-lattes basic - definitely not worth bringing dead-weight HQs or detachments over. But with the advent of our 8th edition stratagems, a whole new world of options has opened up to us. The super simple example of an exploding scarab finishing off a Primarch, super heavy, tank or enemy character with its 1 CP, d3 mortal wounds on a 2+ is getting more "worth it" / clutch. There are absolutely some new stratagems that are clearly worth their weight in Nihilakh-gold. The destroyer-centric stratagems -
Extermination Protocols – 1 CP – Destroyers re-roll hit & wound rolls one shooting phase
Translocation Crypt – 1 CP – Unit deepstrike @ end of movement phase (isn’t deployed)
allows a unit of destroyers crank up their damage output to 11 and to not be alpha strike'd off the board turn 1, respectively.
How do we quantify these stratagems in terms of points? Because ultimately that is what we need to accomplish if we want to make the most competitive lists. If the dynasty code or stratagem wins you the game by tabling your opponent, not allowing them to have as much return fire, eliminating a tough objective-scoring unit off the board or otherwise gaining you points they are clearly worth it.
Having that one extra CP and using it for Extermination Protocols might be worth the 100 - 150 point "dead weight" HQ tax that is required in creating an outrider detachment specifically for gaining CP; especially when combined with that detachment also giving you access to good dynasty specific stratagems or dynasty codes like some juicy Nephrekh crypt-strikes, fast-moving units, or Mephrit AP bonuses to the destroyers' already buffed firepower.
Even if we are able to quantify the usefulness of our stratagems and determine that it is "worth" paying a point-tax for or choosing slightly sub-optimal unit selections to fit in another detachment, the underlying question becomes "how do we make the most of those HQ & filler-unit selections so they pull the maximum amount of weight possible, despite our grumblings that we wish we just didn't have to bring them to get the bonuses we desire?" This is where the true art to list building lives and where creative list builders thrive.
A small example could be:
How to outfit a Nephrekh Outrider HQ choice if the primary purpose of the detachment is to get wicked fast scarabs and translocation crypt destroyers?
An Overlord cannot keep up with the destroyers for MWBD, and the destroyers don't really need the buff anyway. Even if the Overlord has Veil of Darkness, it cannot buff the destroyers the turn they deepstrike onto the battlefield so it seems pretty moot. Same with the Lord in that it hardly seems worth wasting the relic/veil use for the re-rolling ones to wound for the destroyers, especially since they will probably be using Extermination Protocols the turn they drop in and therefore the re-rolling of ones is useless since they are already re-rolling all missed hit & damage rolls, and you cannot re-roll a re-roll. A Cryptek would be great if it could provide them with an invuln, but again, it would have to waste the relic/veil to get up that close. Cloaktek seems good because it could quickly (especially with Nephrekh advancing) get up to them, but then since it brought the cloak it doesn't provide the 5+ invuln and instead just buffs RP a bit. All three of these options are also worthless for other non-Nephrekh detachments since their buffs are <Dynasty> specific.
I concluded that I would either bring a Cryptek and waste the Veil of Darkness use on turn 1 to provide the destroyers with the invuln & RP bonus (still felt like a waste / tax HQ), or I would bring Szeras as he is uniquely positioned to not care at all what detachment or dynasty he was brought in and can straight up hangout with infantry from any dynasty/detachment and buff them up (while also pew-pewing with his Eldritch Lance!).
I think this is an example of a solution that I am content with in that the HQ will still prove useful. Another alternative would be to consider adding some infantry to the Nephrekh dynasty so the detachment's Overlord, Lord or Cryptek could have some targets to buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: ... am I crazy for thinking a brigade might be possible?
Spoiler:
Like, everyone's probably going to be taking a Battalion + 1 or 2 Detachments, right?
So if you go three units of 10 Immortals for the mandatory Batt Troop take you'd actually have your six units for Brig if you split those in half. Yes, not as survivable as full Immortal squads, but you'll be able to cover more ground.
If taking Batt + an additional detachment you'd already have a third HQ, so there's that Brig requirement filled, too.
Three Fast takes is easy to fill.
Three Heavy shouldn't be too hard (maybe 2 DDA + 1 Spyder for repairs).
That just leaves an Elite tax.
Cheapest take there is probably Flayed Ones, but I have a feeling Deathmarks might be more useful (counter deep strike & character sniping).
Granted, it might not have as much flavor as a Dynasty salad, but with 9+3 CP that's a hell of a lot of Strats you'll be able to throw around.
I actually went through analysis on my own a couple of days ago and tried to decide the same thing - I concluded that it is potentially viable but probably not optimal, and certainly not as fun as seeking strength through diversity.
After reading through the beta codex I spent about an hour just looking back and forth at detachment options and unit selections.
A Brigade is absolutely possible but unless it is a SilverTide army, it either: 1.) forces more points into troops than we want; or 2.) forces us to take MSU instead of beefier, near-maxed sized units like we usually desire to force focus-fire in order to deny RP.
Additionally, the Elite & Troops ended up being the potential dead-weight or "tax" units but this by itself didn't make me dismiss the Brigade outright. Other than getting into the whole "How much do we value CP vs. optimal selections/points" question implicated by the above, my biggest turnoff for a Brigade was when I started asking "how much do we value CP vs. optimal dynasty codes, Warlord traits, and dynasty specific stratagems?"
Even when I was happy with the forced-unit selections like "having" to take lychguard, DDA, deathmarks/flayed ones etc. I found myself sad that these units wouldn't be benefiting from bonuses that would make them not just palatable selections but even downright worth it. If the Brigade is Mephrit, and I took the elite tax Lychguard, they do not get to benefit from Novokh's amazing dynasty code. Neither do the flayed ones, and the Destroyers don't get to use translocation crypt and the wraiths and scarabs don't get an auto 6" super-advance. In my eyes the army becomes more boring and arguably each unit is going to be watered down unless they are the chosen few who happen to optimally benefit from the Brigade's Dynasty.
The thought experiment of a Necron Brigade might actually prove to be a very useful Reductio ad absurdum argument to help theory-out how 'worth it' CP are.
A Brigade makes it more extreme. A Brigade provides ("challenge accepted" for anyone out there who wants it) the maximum amount of CP for the least amount of points. It likely provides an extra 3 CP over any other similarly out-fitted or same-point army.
In exchange for those CP, you were forced to take a true variety of units, and they are all stuck with using the same dynasty code and losing access to some of the strongest stratagems, relics & warlord traits that Necrons have access to in the other 4 Dynasties.
In my brain I'm imagining:
Brigade - 12 CP - Mephrit. Brings a balanced army with a variety of selections, many of which don't benefit from the Mephrit code
v.
7 CP Total
Battalion - Mephrit - brings the same units as the above Brigade (immortals, DDA, destroyers, TBs etc.), minus all the melee focused units.
Outrider - Novokh - brings the same units as the above Brigade (lynchguard, flayed ones, wraiths, scarabs, overlord with veil) minus all the shooting focused units.
In exchange for 5 CP, you lose a dynasty code, dynasty specific stratagems & relics that could potentially make 1/4th to 1/2th your army significantly stronger.
If you had the Battalion as Sautekh, the CP discrepancy would likely be more like 2-4 CP instead of 5 CP. Obviously if you break it out into 3 detachments, you get even more effectiveness and granularity through options and strength through diversity, in addition to closing the CP gap a little bit further, but you might start facing some tax depreciation in terms of HQ points (3 standard detachments including 1 battalion usually means 4 HQs).
At the end of the day, a Brigade felt like trading in the majority of our new toys in exchange for a handful of extra CP, and out-the-door it still has some bloat/tax problems of being forced to take selections or take MSU when we normally wouldn't want to.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 07:33:05
Sautekh Battalion
. . .
The idea being you Deep Strike the Destroyers, Veil up the Cloaktek and Wraiths, and then . . .
Thoughts? Seem competitive or just mediocre?? Too gimmicky?
Veil of Darkness allows the user to move "one friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." Canoptek Wraiths are not Infantry (they are Beasts). Canoptek Scarabs are also not Infantry, they are Swarms. In your list, the Veil of Darkness can only be used to move itself and the unit of Destroyers.
grimgold wrote:
Detachment 1 - Novokh Outrider
HQ Lord 73
w/ warscythe 11
Relic: Veil of darkness
Fast attack
6 x Wraiths 330
5 x Scarabs 65
5 x Scarabs 65
Same comment as above. Your Lord can only use his Veil of Darkness for himself in your detachment - he cannot bring the Wraiths or Scarabs with him.
Additionally, his The Lord's Will ability only allows "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry units" to re-roll wound rolls of 1, so he is a raw 84 points of dead-weight other than trying to take something out with his warscythe.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/23 03:03:33
Da W wrote: You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.
MWBD targets a "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." While Triarch Praetorians are Infantry, they cannot benefit from a Dynastic Code.
Just an FYI/clarification for new players who might be scrolling past,
Though Praetorians can never benefit from Dynastic Codes, Imotekh and Anrakyr can give them MWBD.
Indeed! I'm curious to see if this synergy survives into the Codex.
My biggest beef with Anrakyr (his point cost isn't great but not terrible at 167) is I just don't see him ever keeping up with Triarch Praetorians to give them MWBD or his +1 Attack buff. I suppose his best use is defensively for a counter charges. As it stands, I don't think he can even get in our *still* lame transport options because he lacks any <Dynasty>.
Staff of light is 10pts! w00t. I've watched a small chunk (~ 30 minutes) and have seen/heard NO differences between the real codex and the leaked beta codex.
Chronometron is still 15 pts, Conoptek cloak still 5 pts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/24 02:11:34
2018/04/13 01:51:22
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - the book is out. Discuss!
Danny76 wrote: Is anyone giving Tomb blades any options, whether you go with Gauss or Tesla, or just running with basic?
Im totally sold on that shield abd loom set up but im not positive if the nebulo scope is actually worth it or not.
Nebuloscopes cost 2 points per model, so it is only an 18 point investment for a full unit of 9. Probably worth it unless your list is super tight on points.
However - the big issue is that nebuloscopes effectively take the place of shadowlooms - you can only bring one or other, not both.
The other issue is that we can get access to the same effect as the nebuloscopes via our Solar Pulse (1CP) stratagem, meaning the 1-2 turns where your tomb blades really wish they could deny cover, they can at the cost of a CP or two.
My standard operating procedure is to build the list with no nebuloscopes, and then if there are some odd points available at the end of list building, I might consider throwing Nebuloscopes onto the tomb blades that are not taking shadowlooms.
2018/04/18 22:02:59
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - New FAQ discussion p.72
Here is the issue with that article, he only counts charge phases and the necrons shooting phase, remember you get to take part in two assault phases per round, and in only get to shoot ranged weapons once a round (if your using the pistol, otherwise it's a one and done with the rod). So a more honest calculation would halve the effect of the ranged weapons. Which leaves Praetorians noticeably worse than lychguard, especially when you consider stratagems like blood rights, which lets novokh attack twice in a single phase. Other issues include using only one wound models, which greatly favors praetorians since they have no means to do multiple wounds. He also uses a very narrow target profile (albeit one that is common), against t3, as well as t5 and up lychguard perform much better due to higher strength of attacks.
Long and short GW screwed the pooch on praetorians, they cost too much, the two configurations are horribly lopsided in effectiveness yet cost the same, and by excluding them from the dynasty keyword they cut off any synergy with the rest of the necron army. FLG and ITC have more or less become a GW marketing asset, so seeing a lame article trying to spin the effectiveness of a bad unit is just par for the course at this point.
Yeah no getting around it - Triarch Praetorians didn't get a lot of love in our 8th Ed. Codex.
Pretty sure the author of that article responded to your comments and addressed the fact that the authord did the average math on the charge, which was labelled as such, and provided a table showing dmg against all T & Sv. enemies and even called out your comments as showing that you failed to read the actual article and just made hap-hazarded comments based on looking only at the math (which appears correct and accurately labelled).
I don't think there is any spin, it just looked like a fair opinion piece comparing lychguard and triarch praetorians. Neither are stand-out amazing so it just covered the differences and pros and cons of each. IMO Wraiths clearly outclass both, though Lychguard with sword-and-board have their place as being pretty resilient.
Your 2nd paragraph is very confusing - you seem to agree that voidblade & particle caster praetorians are clearly better than Rod of Covenant (which seemed to be the main premise of the article, other than comparing lychguard as well), and then call the article a lame attempt at spin. Not sure why you would hate on any discussion of necrons, especially when the analysis is sound and overall informative of differences so that each player can make their own determination to bring what they like. Perhaps you're just disappointed GW cut off the Praetorians from synergy and didn't make them strong enough to compensate? I think we're all in agreement there, but there is a difference between someone saying "Triarch Praetorians are great," which would be flat out wrong, versus someone saying "Triarch Praetorians are sometimes better than Lychguard, depending on the situation, and here are the pros & cons of bringing praetorians vs. bringing lychguard."
2018/05/07 04:20:01
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - New FAQ discussion p.72
Xachariah wrote: It's not a leap. The rules hasundefined keywords like 'aura ability' or 'attack', and it's up to us to figure them out based on evidence in the books.
In the BRB, there is a reference to 'aura abilities' but no actual definition on what they are. It references that it works on Nurgle's Gift, so I guess Aura Abilities counts as all abilities which have a radius? But without an actual definition, all we're left with is an educated guess on what an aura ability actually is.
. . . nothing (or everything) being an aura ability.
Aura abilities are discussed in the rulebook - Right side bar, page 179.
"Some units - usually CHARACTERS - have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. . . . For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7" of him."
I would not call this a reference, I would call this a definition - "aura abilities" is a defined word.
It is not a Keyword - which is defined under paragraph #9 on page 175.
But as others have mentioned this is not a thread to discuss rules queries, but Necron tactics - to which it looks like more FLG love!
I thought because he lacks a Dynasty keyword he can’t use transports/vehicles or the Veil? (which both are restricted to Dynasty infantry models).
[[don't actually remember if this was addressed/resolved before]]
I think there is some good fodder there for GW to Errata - especially with terrible wording on our Monolith & Night Scythe - them not being transports and it not being entirely clear if models coming out of them count as disembarking or can move after popping out.
Deceiver can put Anrakyr up in some cover along with some kind of screen (scarabs?) and then Anrakyr can waddle up into position for flayed ones or veil'd lychguard to drop in and give them the +1A via leaving a little daisy chain to keep within the aura. It can be hard to make use of Anrakyr's MWBD in this scenario since he'll be up front hanging out and waiting for turn 2 (maybe put an infantry unit up there to chill with him).
2018/05/26 02:01:52
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - New FAQ discussion p.72
