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Fun thought exercise using the new codex.
How would you now best get lychguard into assault, using what we know of the new dex?

Same as Flayed Ones:

Overlord with Indomitable Conqueror, Veil of Darkness; start on the board, apply MWBD, use the Veil to get within 10".

Also considered Maynarkh using Nephrekh rules, with Kutlakh to give Advance + Charge. It costs more -- about 2 Overlords -- but it doesn't take your Warlord or relic to do it.

I don't like using Night Scythes, not so much because of the cost, but because Tesla Destructors aren't very good anymore. They may be better with Mephrit, delivering other weapons into 12" range while benefitting from AP-1.

The Deceiver bomb takes far too much investment, and Z+O are more likewise too expensive, for me.

Drakmord wrote:

Does Talent for Annihilation work better than Methodical Destruction? I like that it's 1 CP, but it only affects one unit per turn.

For Mephrit I'm not sure if I would change the core of the list too much. Area denial and screening are important, so even if I wasn't using it for Destroyers, an Outrider detachment for Scarabs would be in most of the lists I make.

What warlord would you run in Mephrit? I'm not sold on the character sniper yet, because of how close it wants me to get. If I'm in that range, I'd personally be tempted by Thrall of the Silent King with a Lightning Field, instead.

It depends, Methodical Destruction targets a single enemy unit, but gives everyone shooting at it a +1 to hit. Talent for Annihilation targets one of your units, and gives the unit exploding sixes. The potential issue with Methodical Destruction is that it's likely to be overkill against MSU, where as with talent for annihilation you can split your fire. So Methodical Destruction has a higher upper limit if you are shooting at a fatty like magnus or mortarion (and especially when combined with a stalker), but from turn to turn a max sized unit of tomb blades with tesla carbines will probably benefit more from talent for annihilation. It's hard to mathhammer because the best case for each of them is so different, but if imperial soup is your concern I think talent for annihilation will be the winner.

As for warlord trait, Immortal pride seems likely since we run short on ways to deal with psychic shenanigans, unless I'm running a CCB, then merciless tyrant cause they can hit characters 30" away with a tesla cannon.

Honestly if those Beta Smite limitations come out, we really don't need much to worry about on that end. I'd probably try and take advantage of that morale bubble thing with it myself but I've never been big on large squads.

So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly if those Beta Smite limitations come out, we really don't need much to worry about on that end.

I wouldn't be so sure, playing a few itc tournaments with the beta rules in place, even without smite being used very much denies are very potent as some races such as eldar, nids and daemons can have some pretty insance combos using their powers.

The only issue is that unless you use tomb sentinels, one deny without any bonuses will not particularly do much when the users in these races usually have some decent buffs to their tests, i.e. magnus and eldar farseers or even warlock conclaves that are out of range, as well as a cp in their back pocket prepared to improve the test they think you will deny.

denies are still important without smite but we still just don't have enough to use them. Although something could be said about fairness and our un-stoppable ctan powers...

epaemil wrote:
So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.

That's actually a pretty well balanced force, dark angels work best as gunline (which si to say they sit back and shoot you), but Tactical marines are going to have a hard time dealing with how efficient your troops are, I'd grab a few more scarabs to screen his ravenwing units (super-cheap on ebay), and plan on maybe adding some wraiths down the road. As for the force, I'd go for battalion, with the overlord and the cryptek as your HQ, two min sized units of warriors and the immortals for troops, and then the stalker, the tomb blades and the scarabs should all fit in a 1k list. If he is starting from the dark vengeance box, he will have five terminators and those will be rough, because he'll deep strike them on you and charge, which will probably not give you time to shoot them. Just have your unit in CC fall back and then focus them down cause they are pricey and you can take a dent out of his forces by dropping them. Good luck and welcome to the hobby, hopefully it will be a good edition for necrons.

Back onto the idea of a Mephrit list with tools to take on GEQ, but not suck at everything else, here is a first pass at what I'm thinking, 3 detachments to get more CP, I thought about trying to go for a brigade, but getting 3 elites into a non-gimped list is brutally expensive.



My reading of the rules, a canoptek cloak gives living metal a D3, and a fabricator claw array can repair a D3 on top of living metal, so it seems like they stack. That makes a doomsday ark much more reliable than 3 heavy destroyers. I couldn't resist the CCB and merciless tyrant for sniping support characters like librarians and such. The big question is do i drop the gloom prisim and change one of the destroyers into a heavy destroyer.

epaemil wrote:
So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.

If it is only 1000 points then going with a max squad warriors might be a decent option, as reanimation gets better the smaller the game. get some more immortals to get a squad of 10 with gauss and maybe build up the tomb blades some more with some gauss and shadowlooms. Using gauss will bring down those pesky 3+ saves a tad and the extra strength on the immortals and tomb blades will help with the T5 bikes

Thinking about the T.Vault again,
It's the only "C'tan" that can benefit from Dynastic buffs.
If we wanted to give it a code & strategem to use, I'm trying to figure out the best combo here.
So obviously Sautekh's Methodical Destruction (Meth.D) strat and Mephrit's Talent for Annihilation (TfA) stand out the most. But which one would really make it shine?
• Meth.D will be making Tesla proc on 5+, so 20 Tesla Sphere shots would be generating a lot of extra hits. Plus it makes the C'tan shots hit on a 2+ instead of the 3+ it normally has. Downside being it's only against the one unit, but not too bad against huge units. (Bonus being everything else Sautekh in the army is also going to benefit against that one unit).
• TfA will be generating extra hit dice on 6s in ADDITION to the 2 extra hits that you'd get from the Tesla Sphere shots. Those extra hit dice can then potentially go on to themselves score extra 2 hits on a 6. With a little luck, that's an exponentially amount of hits this thing will be putting out. Bonus being all of those Tesla shots will have -1AP, too. In that the T.Vault will be able to split its fire amongst several different targets if it wants to, that's pretty good against MSU. (It's lucky they made the C'tan shots come in the movement phase, because if they could benefit from TfA it'd be MW generate-O-rama.)

 skoffs wrote:
Thinking about the T.Vault again,
It's the only "C'tan" that can benefit from Dynastic buffs.
If we wanted to give it a code & strategem to use, I'm trying to figure out the best combo here.
So obviously Sautekh's Methodical Destruction (Meth.D) strat and Mephrit's Talent for Annihilation (TfA) stand out the most. But which one would really make it shine?
• Meth.D will be making Tesla proc on 5+, so 20 Tesla Sphere shots would be generating a lot of extra hits. Plus it makes the C'tan shots hit on a 2+ instead of the 3+ it normally has. Downside being it's only against the one unit, but not too bad against huge units. (Bonus being everything else Sautekh in the army is also going to benefit against that one unit).
• TfA will be generating extra hit dice on 6s in ADDITION to the 2 extra hits that you'd get from the Tesla Sphere shots. Those extra hit dice can then potentially go on to themselves score extra 2 hits on a 6. With a little luck, that's an exponentially amount of hits this thing will be putting out. Bonus being all of those Tesla shots will have -1AP, too. In that the T.Vault will be able to split its fire amongst several different targets if it wants to, that's pretty good against MSU. (It's lucky they made the C'tan shots come in the movement phase, because if they could benefit from TfA it'd be MW generate-O-rama.)

Idk if im going to spend this much points id rather go pylon and be able to snipe lord of wars and blow up vehicles easily.

Just a note about the TV, it can't gain from the dynasty buffs, it has the <dynasty> keyword but also has the <c'tan shards> keyword, so it can be in your dynasty and can use stratagems, but cannot gain dynasty buff as <C'Tan Shards> are specifically excluded

Hopefully this will be FAQed but I am pretty sure this is intentional by GW

Removed for relevancy!

hirojlance wrote:

Thoughts? Obviously some kind of nod from GW that Necrons don't have great answers to objective squatting?

Isn't this the same "troops-steal-objectives"-rule that all codex-troops have gained in 8th so far?

 MinscS2 wrote:

hirojlance wrote:

Thoughts? Obviously some kind of nod from GW that Necrons don't have great answers to objective squatting?

Isn't this the same "troops-steal-objectives"-rule that all codex-troops have gained in 8th so far?

True, but a blob of 20 Warriors sitting on an objective can hold it for a long time, especially with a Cryptek. With Obsec, theyll need to be killed down to the last man.

 MinscS2 wrote:

hirojlance wrote:

Thoughts? Obviously some kind of nod from GW that Necrons don't have great answers to objective squatting?

Isn't this the same "troops-steal-objectives"-rule that all codex-troops have gained in 8th so far?

Just popped open a half dozen codex and it looks like - just maintaining the status quo, very boring : (.

I'm thinking about 3x6 TB with particle beamers as infantry killers: cost less, S6 means wounding on 2.

With 2x6 Destroyers and 3xDDA for heavy killing.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I'm thinking about 3x6 TB with particle beamers as infantry killers: cost less, S6 means wounding on 2.

With Mephrit's Code for AP-1 that might be alright, but I have a feeling Tesla Carbines still have the edge.
Has anyone done the math on that yet? (18 S6 AP-1 PB shots or 24 S5 AP-1 TC shots vs GEQ)

I'm seeing people talking up the Mephrit unique strat but it seems fairly useless to me. If you use it on a unit of 10 Tesla Immortals for example it will, on average, get you 3 extra shots.

1CP for an extra one and a half Immortals shooting it a terrible waste of CP. Maybe on a TV where you're getting 3 extra shots on a better profile but it still seems wasteful.

It really shouldn't say "unmodified 6" IMO. It would then stack with MWBD and be decent, although still not as good as some of the other things we can do for 1CP.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Fun thought exercise using the new codex.
How would you now best get lychguard into assault, using what we know of the new dex?

Here are the best options as I see them:

OLord with Veil and reroll charge WL trait- With MWBD that's an 8" with a reroll and you don't need to do it 1st turn so you have time to clear screens. It only gives about a 2/3 chance of making the charge though.

Zahndrekh + Obyron + Veiltek- Veiltek takes NZ to within 9" of the target, Obyron can then take the LG within 3" of the target. With MWBD that's a 2" charge. This is probably a bit too expensive but it has the advantage of not needing to happen turn 1 so you can clear screens first, and it gets you very close.

Deceiver + Zahndrekh + Obyron- Deceiver infiltrates NZ 12" from target. NZ then moves and advances an average of 8" before Obyron and the LG land right next to their target. This gets you very close but it can only be done on turn 1 when screens will get in the way. You also might not get 1st turn.

Monolith- Once it's in place the new strat lets you teleport the Lychguard within 3" of it and they can move and charge normally. That's an average of 16" from the monolith. Won't happen before turn 2 which may be too slow but gives you time to clear screens. Your opponent might notice the monolith right in their face and see it coming lol.

Im very sceptical about offensive Lychguard. Their main problem is that its very expensive and mostly not 100% guaranteed to get them into enemy lines fast.

And then you have a slow moving unit in the middle of the board, which can be easily outmanoeuvred by a smart opponent. They can be valuable against castles and such, or as a counter charge unit, but they are just to one dimnesional for my taste.

Wraiths can do basically everything Lychguard can do but without support and they are a lot faster.

Yeah LG don't seem great. I have 10 though so I'm going to give them a go.


Do people think Quantum Shielding spam could be any good?

I wrote a quick list just using models I own:



Considering it's not optimized this seems surprisingly ok. 7 QS vehicles with a canoptek screen and a repair Cryptek + the compulsory Destroyer deep strike.

The Vehicles can all move and shoot thanks to Sautekh and the canopteks get 6" advance from Nephrekh.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah LG don't seem great. I have 10 though so I'm going to give them a go.


Do people think Quantum Shielding spam could be any good?

I wrote a quick list just using models I own:

Spoiler:

Nephrekh Outrider:

CCB- Lightning Field- Voidscythe

6X Destroyers (Deep Strike)
6x Wraith
7x Scarabs

Sautekh Spearhead:

Cloak-tek

Triarch Stalker + Twin Heavy Gauss

Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
DDA
DDA

Considering it's not optimized this seems surprisingly ok. 7 QS vehicles with a canoptek screen and a repair Cryptek + the compulsory Destroyer deep strike.

The Vehicles can all move and shoot thanks to Sautekh and the canopteks get 6" advance from Nephrekh.

Except the stalker doesn't benefit from codes (really hate that aspect) but I've considered similar. It seems odd from 7th but you can use annhilation barges as chargers since they have high movement, assault guns, and the fly keyword to disengage the turn after. Really helpful for tying units for a turn.

I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.

I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.

-

 Galef wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.

I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.

-

Right, so if you have just two vehicles that's probably workable. But if you have 6 or 7 then you either have to clump them all up in a circle around the Cryptek, which you probably don't want to do, or else you have to leave some more than 3" from him. And then those are the ones that get shot.

If you are taking 6 or more vehicles, you'll probably need more than 1 repair Cryptek. I'd say the ideal ratio would be 1 'Tek per 2 Vehicles.

epaemil wrote:
So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.

Personally, I would say a good build is whatever you're interested in. It doesn't sound like your brother is exactly building tournament lists, and you've got a good mix.

Between me and my brother, game systems tended to last longer when we were both interested and having fun and experimenting, and not starting a bitter war of escalating optimized builds to kill each other. But my family's weird, so... take that with a grain of salt.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.

Damn. I just assumed it was like a Tech marine. Still probably the best HQ to fill out the detachment for this list.

Anyone else think the Transcendant C'tan, despite his buffs, is still weaker than the Nightbringer?

The Nightbringer is 20 points cheaper, offers an amazing (if, short) ranged attack and is an absolute monster on combat against anything but T8 vehicles. He can make great use of the Entropic Strike ability.

Meanwhile, the Transcendant is worse in melee against non-vehicles, more expensive and doesn't have a ranged attack. Sure he can have a 3++ which is awesome or a second power of the C'tan. But is that really better than the Gaze?

The only way I can see the T. C'tan be better is if you roll really lucky on his Split Personality upgrades and get the 3++ and the 2nd power or something.

 Galef wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.

I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.

-

Remember, he heals wounds for models with Living Metal

All your Necron HQs have this, functionally your Cryptek is better at healing characters than repairing vehicles, though for Necrons this is functionally the same thing.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Fun thought exercise using the new codex.
How would you now best get lychguard into assault, using what we know of the new dex?

Here are the best options as I see them:

OLord with Veil and reroll charge WL trait- With MWBD that's an 8" with a reroll and you don't need to do it 1st turn so you have time to clear screens. It only gives about a 2/3 chance of making the charge though.

Zahndrekh + Obyron + Veiltek- Veiltek takes NZ to within 9" of the target, Obyron can then take the LG within 3" of the target. With MWBD that's a 2" charge. This is probably a bit too expensive but it has the advantage of not needing to happen turn 1 so you can clear screens first, and it gets you very close.

Deceiver + Zahndrekh + Obyron- Deceiver infiltrates NZ 12" from target. NZ then moves and advances an average of 8" before Obyron and the LG land right next to their target. This gets you very close but it can only be done on turn 1 when screens will get in the way. You also might not get 1st turn.

Monolith- Once it's in place the new strat lets you teleport the Lychguard within 3" of it and they can move and charge normally. That's an average of 16" from the monolith. Won't happen before turn 2 which may be too slow but gives you time to clear screens. Your opponent might notice the monolith right in their face and see it coming lol.

Dont forget the Monolith that ejects Nemesor who then cloaks in Obyron and crew option.
Granted this is a turn 2 build where you drop the monolith turn 1 and then walk nem out turn 2 or if the enemy blows up the mono you emergency port out nem and another unit. This combo can be made to work for turn 1 if you also invest in Deciever and GI the monolith up.

Admittedly though~ such lychguard would have to be Sautekh which is somewhat wasteful (assuming you are using Nems MWBD / obyron ghost walk on them). So this might be more useful for getting a shooting into support range and then the shooting forces provide covering fire for the actual melee forces.

But that 3" to 1" charge (depending on if Nem moves or not) is pretty darn tastey... (12 to 9 with mon port to 3 with 6" out from nem with ghost)

Doctoralex wrote:
Anyone else think the Transcendant C'tan, despite his buffs, is still weaker than the Nightbringer?

The Nightbringer is 20 points cheaper, offers an amazing (if, short) ranged attack and is an absolute monster on combat against anything but T8 vehicles. He can make great use of the Entropic Strike ability.

Meanwhile, the Transcendant is worse in melee against non-vehicles, more expensive and doesn't have a ranged attack. Sure he can have a 3++ which is awesome or a second power of the C'tan. But is that really better than the Gaze?

The only way I can see the T. C'tan be better is if you roll really lucky on his Split Personality upgrades and get the 3++ and the 2nd power or something.

I think Trans real strength lies in that he has great abilities on 2-3rds of the dice options so rolling twice is a fairly ok gamble.
I'd be very happy with 1,2,4 & 5 and 3 is still pretty good.

I personally think Transdimensional Displacement will be amazing for positioning ctan powers as well as manuevering around the battlefield/enemy lines since they are a flier. Shame you cant charge after advancing and without a range attack all this amounts to is a bit of 'oooga booga!' and perhaps a suicide explosion when they focus it down with guns or charge him.

Admittedly number 6 might be most useful if you get 4 since that'll easily let you position to deny a large bubble of enemy cover. *chuckle*