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Hey dakka, I wanted to get your opinion on the whole idea of "counts-as" models. You know, where people use other models (or even other objects) in lieu of using the proper model. However, sometimes players use conversions and scratchbuilds to count as a regular model.

But I was thinking the other day, I have two squads of guardians and one squad of Dire Avengers. I never use the guardians though, usually run them as "counts-as" DAs because my opponents let me. (it's a local gaming club, they don't care.) I mean, I think most people would let that slide since the guardians and avengers are "close enough," but how do you define "close enough"? At what point is the line drawn? I'll look at it in reverse for a second. If I wanted to use my DA's as guardians at a tourney, would I be laughed out of the building?

So how about you Dakka? Where do you draw the line?

I personally don't have any vehicles yet since I just stated a few weeks ago (and I play mech guard!)

I make sure to use things of similar size though. For example, my scout sentinels are represented by autocannon heavy weapons teams, both of which are on 60mm bases.

Someone at my gaming club almost let me use a battlewagon if I could find something that was battlewagon sized (a box would have worked ) but I decided not to (besides, I had no such box on me at the time :S )

That same day someone counted their blood angels chaplain as Lemartes, which is fine, I mean what reason would you have to NOT take him, kinda like counting a normal farseer model as eldrad. And a jump chappie looks almost the same as lemartes, only without the wind tunnel purity seals.

As long as its the right size, and you pay the right points for it in your army build, I'm fine with it in friendly games.

Friendly games - go wild, bring your shoebox & chess pieces, its all good.

Tourneys? Your counts as either has to be very close, or clearly not something else. For example - an IG army built from converted Empire soldiers? Fine. Substituting one Eldar model for another eldar model as you suggested - unlikely.

darkkt wrote:Friendly games - go wild, bring your shoebox & chess pieces, its all good.

Tourneys? Your counts as either has to be very close, or clearly not something else. For example - an IG army built from converted Empire soldiers? Fine. Substituting one Eldar model for another eldar model as you suggested - unlikely.

I agree I'd be more likely to accept a counts as which is a conversion from another army than one from the same.

i.e. using wood elves as eldar pathfinders, skaven as lesser daemons, landspeeder bases for guard tanks, giants and dragons as greater daemons, black orks as ardboyz/nobz, chaos hounds as fenrisian wolves all of which are counts as conversions I have seen either in real life or on the net.

But saying these guardians are dire avengers, hrmmm, okay once or twice but eventually i'm going to ask you to start using dire avengers.

I'm also prepared to face people's regular characters using special character rules or vice versa. In 3rd ed the eldrad model was used for pretty much everybody's normal farseer and that was fine. Now all the white scar players I know want their old captain to be khan (so as to unlock the WS rules) but hate or don't wish to convert the model to ride moondrakken. This is also fine.

The best one I ever saw in this vein was a 3.5chaos dex ahriman represented by an entirely greenstuffed yoda.

My requirements:
1. Must be an actual model. No popcan drop pods.
2. Must be the proper scale, base size, etc.
3. must be obvious what it is supposed to be. A counts-as calgar with a powerfist, a thunderhammer, and a storm bolter is ok. A counts-as shrike using the calgar model is not.
4. Must have effort put into it. A basecoat and a wash is par for what I expect. I will play against unpainted armies, but if you're not going to put effort into your army, you can just buy the actual model

Canonness Rory wrote:My requirements:
1. Must be an actual model. No popcan drop pods.
2. Must be the proper scale, base size, etc.
3. must be obvious what it is supposed to be. A counts-as calgar with a powerfist, a thunderhammer, and a storm bolter is ok. A counts-as shrike using the calgar model is not.
4. Must have effort put into it. A basecoat and a wash is par for what I expect. I will play against unpainted armies, but if you're not going to put effort into your army, you can just buy the actual model

All of these are very reasonable requests. However what about a friendly game where a box was left at home by accident, and all you had was that calgar model but; your list had a Shrike that was in that box left at home.

Not trying to get nit-picky but in the spirit of the OP, as a once off oppps how much lee way do you allow?

In a friendly game I'd play it pretty lose.

But in a tournament I'd assume that the tournament itself would have rules about this sort of stuff and I wouldn't have to think about it too hard.

Cerberus wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:My requirements:
1. Must be an actual model. No popcan drop pods.
2. Must be the proper scale, base size, etc.
3. must be obvious what it is supposed to be. A counts-as calgar with a powerfist, a thunderhammer, and a storm bolter is ok. A counts-as shrike using the calgar model is not.
4. Must have effort put into it. A basecoat and a wash is par for what I expect. I will play against unpainted armies, but if you're not going to put effort into your army, you can just buy the actual model

All of these are very reasonable requests. However what about a friendly game where a box was left at home by accident, and all you had was that calgar model but; your list had a Shrike that was in that box left at home.

Not trying to get nit-picky but in the spirit of the OP, as a once off oppps how much lee way do you allow?

I like where Canoness Rory is coming in at. Although I will allow for armament changes, provided the points were spent. (e.g. - A turret upgrade to a Razorback.)

As to Cerberus's question about the model being left at home, the first couple of times...sure. If it seems to be a running issue, then maybe the list should be changed to be more Calgar friendly.

In a friendly game I don't care, proxy whatever as whatever. As long as it's just to test things out (EG I proxy things with spare mage knight or D&D figures to test them out sometimes). I would prefer the proxy is not something normally fieldable by that army though (EG don't use Guardians as Dire Avengers. Grab some high elves or space marines or orks or something. I tend to use Warmachine, Mage Knight or D&D minis).

In a tournament games here's my WYSIWYG guidelines:

- Make sure all wargear is represented in some way
- Make sure the model cannot be legally fielded as something else in the army (EG, don't use Bloodletters painted green as Plague Bearers)
- Make sure the counts as is consistent across the army. EG "These Daemonette/Spiders are Fiends" is fine, "These Daemonette/Spider are Seekers" is fine. "These Daemonette/Spider are Fiends and these other ones are Seekers" is not.
- Make sure the counts as unit has the same base and approximate size as the unit it represents
- Make sure the counts as reasonably looks like it has the same capabilities as hte unit it is representing.

Here's some examples of where I have used counts as without complaints:

- Spider/Daemonette Centaurs (Drider style) as Fiends
- Dire Wolves as Flesh Hounds
- Lord of Change as a CSM Daemon Prince

Here's an example of Counts As taken too far:



This image contains two Falcon Grav Tanks (full of fire dragons), Eldrad Ulthran and two Vypers

Neil wrote:


This image contains two Falcon Grav Tanks (full of fire dragons), Eldrad Ulthran and two Vypers

What?

Two wraithlords and some wraithguard (or possibly an autarch) I can see...eldrad I can not, unless he's wearing Tau Terminator Armor

Those models are AWESOME though, who made them?

I've repeatedly told my friends that I'm willing to play them if they want to field armies composed of round bases and paper silhouettes. I'd rather play against that, or an army where ogres are counting as chaos spawn, than an army where plasmaguns are counting as meltaguns, but I'd still play against the weapon-substitution army.

There's three factors, to my mind. Is it easy to remember what it really should be, is it a cool or interesting switch, and is this a one-off or temporary thing.

If someone said that they were using a grenade guy as a meltagun, it wouldn't worry me. If they went on to say two other grenade guys really were grenade guys, this other grenade guy was really a flamethrower, and the wounded man model was actually a plasma gun I'd ask if my opponent could tweak his army to make it a little more wysiwyg. It's a light, social game, and having to remember what models 'really' are takes me out of the fun mindset, and into the 'this is work' mindset.

But if the change ups are pretty cool, I'm happy to do a little more on the other hand, if they said their meltaguns are being represented by Fire Dragons and their plasma guns by Dire Avengers I'd say that was a cool idea. I'd definitely play against that heavily modified Eldar army that was posted, just because it looks awesome. Assuming my opponent didn't play silly buggers with LOS on those small Falcons, that is.

The other factor is how new a guy is, or if he's trying out stuff before he buys it. If a guy is new to the game and is trying to find out how he wants to play before spending piles of cash on his army, I'd be really leniant in wysiwyg - it's a hobby with a really steep buy in so we should all be understanding towards new players. Similarly, if someone just forgot a model we'll make do somehow, I'm not going to make a guy drive home just so that Chimera is represented by a Chimera. However, a guy who's been playing for a year or two and is still using coke cans as drop pods every game, well I just wouldn't play that guy. I put a lot of effort into my troops and my scenery because a lot of the fun I get out of the game is from the cool looking boards, having a board filled with shoeboxes and coffee cups ruins that.

I hate counts-as. Especially if it's not consistent. (e.g. these deffcoptas here are destoyers but those deffcoptas and the jetbikes are heavy destroyers). It's just such a massive pain in the ass trying to work out what's supposed to be what.

Non-GW models are fine as long as it's clear what they're supposed to be. If you want to use some non-GW human infantry in your guard army and they're all carrying lasguns/meltaguns/whatever then it's fine.

In my casual gaming group, only two of us play WYSIWYG, and only I field a painted army. The others just do not have the models (yet) and, being largely unpainted (so far), from across the table all their models look the same to me anyway. There have been a few times where I have thought one unit was something completely different, and it hurt bad, but I do not kick up a fuss about it because I know they do not have the time or money to invest that I do, and we are only getting together to have some fun. They tell me what they are fielding before we start, so there are no nasty surprises (so long as I remember where they deployed each unit and track their movement in my mind --- if I get lazy I am in trouble), and they are always `similar' models anyway (eg a Phoenix Lord as an Exarch, a Sluggaboyz as Lootas). If someone tried to pull a Grot-counts-as-Defiler, I would probably have a few things to say, but I am generally pretty relaxed on this.

I do not mind a player proxying models if they are testing out a new army list before dropping hundreds of dollars as long as he tells me. But in tounaments it is normally WYSIWYG unless it is a complete scratch build.

Thanks for the responses guys, it's really good to know where Dakka stands. It seems largely unanimous that for my special case, I couldn't count my guardians as Dire Avengers. This is where the "slippery slope" part of the topic comes in. At what point would you accept a guardian conversion as a Dire Avenger? If I added that silly plume to the helmet? If I extended the shuriken rifle to an avenger rifle? Total conversion with greenstuff? (helmet, armor plates, cape, rifle) From what I have heard, the old Dire Avenger models were simply guardian bodies with special Avenger heads. So at what point would such a conversion be acceptable to most players?

I like to have a good idea of what I'm fighting against, so I like to start with:
- base model from correct "race" (e.g. PA for MEQ)
- correct weapons (e.g. actual Melta for Melta)

If things are converted, I like:
- clear, consistent conversions that preserve basic model type and weapon type to some extent

If count as:
- uniform rules for count as (e.g. all heavy = Lascannon)

In the case of a Guardian becoming an Avenger, you'll want a special helmet (preferably crested), and a different paint scheme. Or no Guardians in the army.

We only have a small number of players, and play casual.
I am Orks, so get a lot of leeway with my models!
e.g. I have scratch-built some lootas using regular boyz and some Eldar heavy weapons, some old-style (2nd Ed.) heavy weapons, and such. Before I had enough Counts-as-Lootas, I used to mix in my scratch-built Burnas (As I wasn't using a burna mob) as more lootas.
Our Guard player has decided he wants to field a Griffon Seige Mortar, but does not want to fork out the ForgeWorld prices for one, so until he converts something, we are happy for him to say "The blue chimera with the Big Barrel blu-tac'ed on top is a Griffon".
Our Chaos player wrote a deep-strike-heavy list, but did not have enough Choad Termies, so borrowed a few GK Termies!
None of us know the models that well, so even if we faced a fully-WYSIWYG army, would still have to ask "What unit is that?" - "Who is that model?" etc.
To attend tournaments, models should be as WYSIWYG as possible, with the TO having the last say.
For playing at a local club against strangers, it will depend who you play. Some are fine with pop-can drop-pods, others want 3-colour, WYSIWYG, mostly-GW models.

Talkting to your opponent beforehand usually clarifies a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: If you want to put Guardians on the table and say "I don't have any guardians in my list, these are DA" that's fine with me.
I am planning on doing just that with my assorted Eldar models.
Heck, if you want to say "The blue guardians are guardians, the green ones are DA", i can probably live with it!

Elric of Grans wrote:In my casual gaming group, only two of us play WYSIWYG, and only I field a painted army. The others just do not have the models (yet) and, being largely unpainted (so far), from across the table all their models look the same to me anyway. There have been a few times where I have thought one unit was something completely different, and it hurt bad, but I do not kick up a fuss about it because I know they do not have the time or money to invest that I do, and we are only getting together to have some fun. They tell me what they are fielding before we start, so there are no nasty surprises (so long as I remember where they deployed each unit and track their movement in my mind --- if I get lazy I am in trouble), and they are always `similar' models anyway (eg a Phoenix Lord as an Exarch, a Sluggaboyz as Lootas). If someone tried to pull a Grot-counts-as-Defiler, I would probably have a few things to say, but I am generally pretty relaxed on this.

I have the same situation. I play with my friends only and I can field 2000 points in painted SM, while they struggle to field 500 worth of orks or Guard. We are inviting new people though and there's a guy who's making Ig out of his WFB Dogs of War and 2 other guys who bought Tau and Tyranid Battleforces. They got into painting and I hope that by the time I get back home in Jan we will be able to have a good game.

I also fought shoebox Battlewagons, seashell Sentinels and USB HDD chimeras. it is still fun because we do it together, but when we finally have a cool looking table and completely painted armies it will be even better.

I don't mind playing count as things, so long as they are clearly marked.

For example of a shoe box counting as a LR, I would prefer you to write what is is and what gear it has, just to save confusion later on.

Same with models with "count as" weapons (especially if they are one standard weapon counting as another, such as a nade launcher counting as a melta), I like to just tuck a scrap of paper on the model somewhere (often between the legs so it is not in the way but will stay with the model when it moves) just saying "melta gun" or something, just so that there can be no confusion in the middle of the game.

I don't mind count-as, just as long as the model isn't trying to exploit 40k rules like making a Landraider the size of a Rhino - converted models should at least be as large as their GW counterpart.

romulus571 wrote:Thanks for the responses guys, it's really good to know where Dakka stands. It seems largely unanimous that for my special case, I couldn't count my guardians as Dire Avengers. This is where the "slippery slope" part of the topic comes in. At what point would you accept a guardian conversion as a Dire Avenger? If I added that silly plume to the helmet? If I extended the shuriken rifle to an avenger rifle? Total conversion with greenstuff? (helmet, armor plates, cape, rifle) From what I have heard, the old Dire Avenger models were simply guardian bodies with special Avenger heads. So at what point would such a conversion be acceptable to most players?

If you can find some of the old Avenger heads you should be gold

Anyways, as long as your avengers are fairly uniform (and we can tell them apart from your guardians) I wouldn't mind at all.

If the minis have the gear they are playing with, not a problem really after that. But just dont get insane. Ive played people who've maderhinos out of legos. It was the right size so not a problem. Ive also played people that brought a fish tank scuba diver (demon prince) 5 empty bases (devastator squad) a log from a fish tank (rhino) and literally a pile of play doh blobs that were berzerkers. It got annoying real friggin fast. I dont even think I finished the game.

Elric of Grans wrote:In my casual gaming group, only two of us play WYSIWYG, and only I field a painted army. The others just do not have the models (yet) and, being largely unpainted (so far), from across the table all their models look the same to me anyway. There have been a few times where I have thought one unit was something completely different, and it hurt bad, but I do not kick up a fuss about it because I know they do not have the time or money to invest that I do, and we are only getting together to have some fun. They tell me what they are fielding before we start, so there are no nasty surprises (so long as I remember where they deployed each unit and track their movement in my mind --- if I get lazy I am in trouble), and they are always `similar' models anyway (eg a Phoenix Lord as an Exarch, a Sluggaboyz as Lootas). If someone tried to pull a Grot-counts-as-Defiler, I would probably have a few things to say, but I am generally pretty relaxed on this.

Why don't the guys with limited models play the models as what they are?

Scott-S6 wrote:Why don't the guys with limited models play the models as what they are?

Two of the guys had not played since second edition and only recently came back. Their armies (mostly characters) are not legal under the modern rules (not a single model is WYSIWYG because they all have equipment that no longer exists, units are all too small; forget meeting FOC requirements), so they cannot play them as they are. Another guy has a lot of models from Black Reach he has no intention of ever fielding as they are (eg Nobs with 'Uge Choppas, Sluggaboyz), so he uses them to fill in the gaps to play the army he wants to. Another guy often does it to trial different strategies and see how different equipment would influence the game. The usual reasons continue across the board. I am not about to complain; when I first started playing, I played my Canoness `counts-as having arms' I did not know whether I wanted to use an Evicerator or a Blessed Weapon, so I played a few games with both to see which suited me best.

aslong as its largley WSIWYG and thematically linked, i'll allow it. also, i preffer if its pretty... or suitably ugly...

By the way, what do you think on sustitutions because you hate the actual model?

I ask that because it happends to me with one and I plan to make another without the one that makes mehate the original, but with the same equip for a count-as.

What about count as armies in tournies?

Im putting a khorne ary based on the new SW codex, is that tournament legal?

My grey knight terminators, are achualy some AoBR termies that I converted to look khorny. (As there khorne termies)

My Grey hunters are achualy a mixture of CSM tactical marines and berzerkers.

romulus571 wrote:Thanks for the responses guys, it's really good to know where Dakka stands. It seems largely unanimous that for my special case, I couldn't count my guardians as Dire Avengers. This is where the "slippery slope" part of the topic comes in. At what point would you accept a guardian conversion as a Dire Avenger? If I added that silly plume to the helmet? If I extended the shuriken rifle to an avenger rifle? Total conversion with greenstuff? (helmet, armor plates, cape, rifle) From what I have heard, the old Dire Avenger models were simply guardian bodies with special Avenger heads. So at what point would such a conversion be acceptable to most players?

I have seen guardians used as DAs on several occasions. big deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I like to have a good idea of what I'm fighting against, so I like to start with:
- base model from correct "race" (e.g. PA for MEQ)
- correct weapons (e.g. actual Melta for Melta)

If things are converted, I like:
- clear, consistent conversions that preserve basic model type and weapon type to some extent

If count as:
- uniform rules for count as (e.g. all heavy = Lascannon)

In the case of a Guardian becoming an Avenger, you'll want a special helmet (preferably crested), and a different paint scheme. Or no Guardians in the army.

Excelsior summation of my position.