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So this is an interesting story... I actually have been thinking this for years, but for different reasons. The demographic pyramid in Europe is so top heavy, they don't have enough youngsters to pay for all those old fogies. I am pretty sure that one way or another the welfare state and national health care systems in Europe are gonna collapse, or we are gonna see a radical change in the way society is run...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html
DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+ How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
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-Illeix
You think it's bad in Ye Olde Europa? Take a look at similar statistics for Japan. I think their average age over there is like 49 or some gak. Including newborns.
Wait... are you wrong? I dunno... maybe? With the maybe having and the stuff... yeah please provide that info for us to see please, with the having of it?
JEB_Stuart wrote:So this is an interesting story... I actually have been thinking this for years, but for different reasons. The demographic pyramid in Europe is so top heavy, they don't have enough youngsters to pay for all those old fogies. I am pretty sure that one way or another the welfare state and national health care systems in Europe are gonna collapse, or we are gonna see a radical change in the way society is run...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html
Thing is, the left in Europe is not so far from the right (most politics around the world tends towards the centre, the US seems a dramatic exception to the rule). A good example of this is the criticism of poor financial regulation that led to the global financial crisis. While plenty of left wing talking heads have made lots of attacks on the right wing over the end result of poor regulation, the fact is that looser regulations were supported from both the left and the right, for more than 20 years. On most other issues the points of difference are minor debates over extent, for instance the level of welfare payments and their coverage, not whether or not they should exist.
The recent moderate successes of the right wing politics in Europe can't really be seen as any kind of definitive indicator for the future of world politics, any more than the recent Republican defeats in the US can be seen as the end of conservative politics.
The skewed population will likely be solved through immigration.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
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sebster wrote:Thing is, the left in Europe is not so far from the right
Exactly. The article posted doesn't seem to get that. Nor does it seem to be using the term socialism in a corect or constructive manner.
The biggest bout of ignorance being..."Where the left holds power, as in Spain and Britain, it is under attack" ...they think the british labour party is left, fail.
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"Europe’s center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left: generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, sharp restrictions on carbon emissions, the ceding of some sovereignty to the European Union. But they have won votes by promising to deliver more efficiently than the left, while working to lower taxes, improve financial regulation, and grapple with aging populations."
Doesn't sound like the end of socialism (as defined by the American right) to me.
People live a long time these days. This problem of things being too top heavy is nothing new. It's something you see in developed nations. I personally have a problem with the excessive end of life care we give the elderly. No I'm not saying take you perfectly functional grandmother into the back yard and shoot her in the face. I'm saying take your grandad off life support, he is brain dead. Your mother is very old, only survives through enteral feeding and is barely concious for three hours in the day, pull the plug. Things like this.
Stop coming into the hospital and telling us to do everything in our power to save some people, when they don't want it. Stop vetoing people's wishes when they have come to us with a DNR. Stop trying so desperately to cling to those people. Everyone has to die.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/29 19:34:20
Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more.
Most elderly people are not in such dire straits, that is the exception.
The aunt of a friend of mine is almost 100. She's frail, but she is in good health and lives with her daughter. She probably couldn't cope living by herself without visiting care providers, so she would have to go into an old people's home.
One way of coping with modern lifespans is to stop the idea that people should be forced to retire when they are 60 or 65.
Plenty of people want to go on longer, and there is evidence from various companies that older workers are better than younger at a number of tasks.
Continuing work has several benefits.
1. Keeps you fit and active.
2. Keeps you earning, so you are less dependant on pension.
3. Value to society of increased labour force availability in a time of shrinking populations in many countries.
Wrexasaur wrote:Wait... are you wrong? I dunno... maybe? With the maybe having and the stuff... yeah please provide that info for us to see please, with the having of it?
You can work from here, or not, but please with the bad examples... man...
So maybe dogma took care of that for you? OK, so I was a bit over 4 years off; that makes me wrong in fact but the fact remains that their population is relatively ancient and they have some serious problems ahead because of it. Enjoy.
George Spiggott wrote:This article claims that Britain has a socialist goverment. FAIL!
"Being born in a stable does not make one a horse." — Arthur Wellesley Wellington
The government may not call itself socialist; but I bet all those foriegn freeloaders dragging down your economy are certainly enjoying the fruits of your labour. Sounds like it leans heavily that way to me.
Frazzled wrote:You CAN'T OUT ROBOT SUIT THE JAPANESE!
AMERICA CAN...
though i guess that the japanese one is more for everyday use... and the Army one is for army use.... but the US one still outrobotsuits the japanese one.
Japan currently has a fair bit of unemployment among young people.
The problem with Japan (IMO) is that their social system has been based for decades on a kind of industrial socialism where the majority of men join a big company and get a secure, well-paid job for life, which allows them to support a non-working wife and family.
That system started to fall apart in the 90s, for whatever reasons, and now it's fairly hard for men to find a job which can actually pay the huge cost of living in Japan, let alone support a non-working wife.
grizgrin wrote:The government may not call itself socialist; but I bet all those foriegn freeloaders dragging down your economy are certainly enjoying the fruits of your labour. Sounds like it leans heavily that way to me.
Wrong end of the stick pal, it calls itself Socialist. Thanks for your over simplistic overview of the situation. I can buy my own copy of the Daily Mail thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/30 19:31:19
As for Socialism - its not really a bad plan in principle. Everyone contributes to ensure a minimum level of survival is available to society. I don't think any of our nations really took the time to realize the impact of the 'baby boom' after WWII. Capitalism certainly isn't having a splendid time of it here in the US. Perhaps a change in vocation for our government is in order. Rather than being driven by lawyers it could be driven by artists and engineers for a while? It'd be tough for them to do worse than we have so far.
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Kilkrazy wrote:Most elderly people are not in such dire straits, that is the exception.
The aunt of a friend of mine is almost 100. She's frail, but she is in good health and lives with her daughter. She probably couldn't cope living by herself without visiting care providers, so she would have to go into an old people's home.
One way of coping with modern lifespans is to stop the idea that people should be forced to retire when they are 60 or 65.
Plenty of people want to go on longer, and there is evidence from various companies that older workers are better than younger at a number of tasks.
Continuing work has several benefits.
1. Keeps you fit and active. 2. Keeps you earning, so you are less dependant on pension. 3. Value to society of increased labour force availability in a time of shrinking populations in many countries.
I'm not suggesting we take every old incapable person out back and shoot them like animals. That really isn't my style. I guess I was more blowing off steam from work. I don't like it that families come into a nursing home see their brain dead mother's and father's ignore everything we say about DNR with comfort cares etc and just tell us to keep them alive as long as possible. That really isn't good for anybody, especially the person your trying to keep alive.
I still do home health on the side and all the elderly people I go visit I really like. They don't work and they live nicely they just need someone to help out every now and then. Clinton kind of messed that up a little. But they pay my company well for me to provide them my services. So it's all good in the home health front.
As for Socialism - its not really a bad plan in principle. Everyone contributes to ensure a minimum level of survival is available to society. I don't think any of our nations really took the time to realize the impact of the 'baby boom' after WWII. Capitalism certainly isn't having a splendid time of it here in the US. Perhaps a change in vocation for our government is in order. Rather than being driven by lawyers it could be driven by artists and engineers for a while? It'd be tough for them to do worse than we have so far.
Well.. they kind of do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/30 23:31:01
Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more.
grizgrin wrote:The government may not call itself socialist; but I bet all those foriegn freeloaders dragging down your economy are certainly enjoying the fruits of your labour. Sounds like it leans heavily that way to me.
Wrong end of the stick pal, it calls itself Socialist. Thanks for your over simplistic overview of the situation. I can buy my own copy of the Daily Mail thanks.
Your government calls itself socialist? As for the rest of your post; blithering doesn't change where your taxes are going. Oh, we have a bit of it in the US as well, but our petrol prices aren't THAT high due to taxation, are they? Yeah, socialism for the win.
grizgrin wrote:Jesus, I would just feel sorry for you now, except that as a democracy you nominally did it to yourselves. Wow.
Yes because socialism is a scary monster and can only bring evil.
The labour party have been chalenged with the right to call themselves socialists since blair came to power. In truth they are anything but a "socialist party." If you can call the conservatives centre right then I wouldn't think too hard about putting the same title to the labour party. GS was just pointing out this article clearly hasn't done it's research.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/02 13:01:03
Indeed. No worries Spiggott, the irony was unfortunately intentional. The only real difference is possibly one of degree and certainly one of name. But what's in a name, eh?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/02 17:44:00
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