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I will begin this on the understanding that some people find DoC are in need of balancing. Obviously not everyone agrees, but then they don't have to help.

A small attempt on my part to make DoC more balanced, both internally and against all other armies. If anyone has any thoughts on this I would be interested, especially from people who play fairly regularly with or against them.

If anyone was in a position to run their army list with the changes below, or to fight against one like this I would be curious to hear how it goes!


Rather than simply moan about how broken it is, I thought I would be constructive and try and put together DoC 7.1

Notes:

I am not a daemons player, and I rarely play against daemons. These are pure theoryhammer, to be tested by people who care enough. Seeing as there does not seem to be any like this yet someone has to get the ball rolling (even if it's only theoryhammer).

Note also that if I have not mentioned something that everyone knows is unbalanced it's probably because I don't know about it. The rules and profiles stay the same on all the below unless otherwise stated.

Changing the rules on most things are not something I feel I could do adequately, it's something DoC players would be much better at.

Suggested changes for Daemons of Chaos 7.1

Army Rules: Same (I could have amended this and kept the points increases to a minimum, but I went the other way).

LORD
Skarbrand: 705 pts
Kairos Fateweaver: 650 pts
Kugath: Same
Daemon Prince: Same

Bloodthirster: 500pts
Lord of Change: 475pts
Keeper of Secrets: 500pts
Great Unclean One: Same

HERO

Skulltaker: 165 pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 120pts
Masque: 130 pts
Epidemius: 145pts
Scribes: 100pts

Herald of Khorne: 115pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 120pts
Herald of Tzeentch: 135 pts Chariot of Tzeentch = 80pts
Herald of Nurgle: 120 pts
Herald of Slaanesh: 95pts Chariot of Slaanesh = 110pts

Battle standard bearer may choose either a magic banner or a single daemonic upgrade.

CORE
Bloodletters: Gain Hatred (all enemies). 14 pts/model
Horrors: 14 pts/ model (?)
Plaguebearers: Gain Regeneration. 14 pts/ model
Daemonettes: Gain Always Strike first. 14 pts/ model
Furies: 13 pts/ model

SPECIAL
Flesh hounds: 40 pts/ model
Screamers: 33 pts/model
Nurglings: Same
Seekers: Gain Always Strike first. 28 pts/ model

Karanak: 95pts/ model

RARE
Bloodcrushers: 75 pts/ model
Flamers: 45 pts/ model
Beasts of Nurgle: 105 pts/ model
Fiends: 60 pts/ model


Magic items

Great Icon of Despair: Change from -2Ld to makes the unit cause Terror
Obsidian Armour: 60pts (tough for heralds)

Siren Song: 35 points for Keeper of Secrets




I guess I should give some reasoning behind some of the decisions, bear in mind this is mostly all guesswork:

* Things marked with this had a small boost simply because I feel DoC is an elite list, but is too cheap for this.

Lords:

I started with the greater daemons, looking at HoC and taking off the special abilities, adding on any new ones, then trying to work out roughly what the difference would be because of any change in stats.

Special characters I looked at the difference in what they are currently to their equivalent and just added this on to my new value. Obviously this presumed they were correct in the first place.

Heroes:
Skulltaker had a boost because of the skulls for the skull throne rule (which I felt was underpriced), possibly also a small boost* Juggernaut was too cheap, as I added a boost to bloodcrusher *

The chariots seemed WAY too cheap. Considering they have impact hits.

Most of the cost of the Masque was priced as if a slaanesh herald had received magic items to boost stat line from any other book. Possibly a small boost* Scribes could be the same principle, whereas Epidemius I think was just a *.

BSB was mainly because that seems to be a common criticism. It would suck for DoC players, but it would be more in line with the majority of books (who can't normally take any special upgrades/items with a magic banner).

Core
All units had a * factor, but considering some have a 'free' special ability when they have a herald, and are useless without it I threw that in as well.

Special
Mostly * increases. Karanak is too cheap for +2 attacks and his other rules compared to a flesh hound. I was tempted to give him +1 wound and make him a hero.

Nurglings seemed fairly balanced compared to Hoc (considering what they gained and lost)?

Rare
Mostly * increases (obviously the beasts of nurgle could be changed). The flamers were hard to price, as D6 flaming shots could potentially mean 6 shots. So in principle in any other army that could be the cost of 6 missile troops (or one guy armed with 6 S4 18" missile weapons). But then you have to factor in the randomness of the roll. +10 points may be too little?



Summary of Comments from other people
Make beasts of nurgle cheaper, not more expensive, but no idea how much yet.

The points values are definately something that should be looked at in regards to the daemons, but a generic point increase pretty much across the board wont make daemons any less powerful than what they already are.

When you are fighting a good Daemon army, the problem everyone is running into is simply that there are 2-3 units are pulling their army apart, while the rest kind of sit there and take up mandatory slots.

Hounds, Flamers, and Greater Daemons are most likely the probable cause for this. I do not think the GD need to be edited in any way, the points increase would certainly make it more difficult to field in army size, so I would support that.

Hounds are fantastic for their point cost. I would either reduce their move to 7, and make them 1 wound; or make them what you stated and more points (soo less in an army). Flamers are great for what they are, but they have some serious handicaps against several armies, namely good armor saves. I think a 10 point increase is over done. 5pts would be fine IMO.

The biggest problem with daemons as I see it is A) their ward save, B) VERY cheap special characters, C)inability to destroy in one round of combat. Daemonic unit MUST be ground down, and that becomes very difficult for alot of armies. i.e Brettonia, Orcs + Gobbos, skaven(?).

Perhaps a good fix would be the return of the magic negated ward. I havent playtested the idea yet, but that would at least give opponents an "in" against this army. The special character should at least present some kind of disadvantage, such as high point, or take another hero slot or rare for example...

Daemons, when taken indiviually, dont have that great of a stat line. Majority T3, 5+ save isnt that awesome. But make it inv, and unable to be broken, and this army will usually just outlast an opponent whilst a couple of nasty units destroy everything else...

Just my thoughts as I have started playing this army, and I have to say, I enjoy playing them. I do not however enjoy the game when my opponent is not having a good time as well, and that can be the case when playing this army.

I've had someone else suggest that 'Daemonic ward saves are negated by magic attacks'

So that will go on the list.

Flamers +5 pts instead of +10. Ok.

Some other suggestions:

Make all Demonic gifts magic items (solving the BSB issue). (see my solution below)

Either improve the lores of Nurgle & Slaanesh, or tone down tzeentch a bit.

Find some way around the horrors and dispel/ power dice thing. Maybe 'one less power and dispel dice than is normal for the level of spell caster'. A different idea would be to have a stronger misfire result (D6+1 maybe, or a loss or a permanent loss of a power dice etc).


EDIT: Attempt #2

Suggested changes for Daemons of Chaos 7.1

Army Rules:

Daemonic ward saves are negated by magic attacks.

LORD
Skarbrand: 705 pts
Kairos Fateweaver: 650 pts
Kugath: Same

Bloodthirster: 500pts
Lord of Change: 475pts
Keeper of Secrets: 500pts
Great Unclean One: Same
Daemon Prince: May take dedication to one god for free (and only one god).

HERO

Skulltaker: 165 pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 85pts
Masque: 130 pts
Epidemius: 145pts
Scribes: 100pts

Herald of Khorne: 115pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 85pts
Herald of Tzeentch: 135 pts Chariot of Tzeentch = 70pts
Herald of Nurgle: 120 pts Level 2 Wizard: 35pts
Herald of Slaanesh: 95pts Chariot of Slaanesh = 85pts Level 2 Wizard: 35pts

Battle standard bearer may choose up to 50 points from the Daemonic Gifts and Daemonic Items lists. If a daemonic Item is taken a Daemonic Icon cannot also be taken.

CORE
Bloodletters: Gain Hatred (all enemies). 14 pts/model
Horrors: 14 pts/ model. 4+ Ward Save. In the event of a misfire Player may elect to lose either D6+1 Horrors as casualties, or 1 power dice (they must state before rolling)
Plaguebearers: Gain Regeneration. 14 pts/ model
Daemonettes: Gain Always Strike first. 14 pts/ model
Furies: 13 pts/ model

SPECIAL
Flesh hounds: 40 pts/ model
Screamers: 33 pts/model
Nurglings: Same
Seekers: 26 pts/ model

Karanak: 95pts/ model

RARE
Bloodcrushers: 75 pts/ model
Flamers: 40 pts/ model
Beasts of Nurgle: 95 pts/ model
Fiends: 60 pts/ model


Magic items are now split like this. Daemonic Gifts are not magic items, but Daemonic Items are. No Daemonic Item can be duplicated in the army, but daemonic gifts can. (The reason they are split this way is that it makes no sense that a magical weapon that would be a magical item in any other list is treated the same way as physical mutations).

Daemonic Gifts:
Spirit Swallower
Awesome Strength
Two Heads
Tzeentch’s Will
Dark Insanity
Many Armed Monstrosity
Nurgling Infestation
Spell Destroyer
Temptator
Trappings of Nurgle
Power vortex
Allure of Slaanesh
Dark Magister
Enrapturing Gaze
Flames of Tzeentch
Immortal Fury
Iridescent Corona
Master of Sorcery
Noxious Vapours
Nurgle’s Rot
Pesltilent Mucus
Sporific Musk
Soul Hunger
Spell Breaker
Streams of Bile
Unnatural Swiftness
Winged Horror
Slime Trail

Daemonic Items:
Balesword
Etherblade
Obsidian Armour 60pts (tough for heralds)
Staff of Change
Staff of Nurgle
Axe of Khorne
Daemonic Robes
Firestorm Blade
Horn of Sirens (Renamed)
Armour of Khorne
Collar of Khorne
Torment Blade

Great Icon of Despair: Change from -2Ld to makes the unit cause Terror

One thing that I feel needs to be stated in the defense of heralds is that if you make daemonic items only usable on one guy then you should give them normal equivalents as that is what every other army has by your terms. I would be happy to see them just become magic items, but without the 1 per army restriction, so I can get rid of/nullify the stupid things. (I mainly see this as a problem for a Khornate themed army, i know most people don't play that way but as a high elf player in the last edition not being able to theme is a pain)

By normal equivalent you mean like a mundane great weapon? Or common magic items?

I can't remember the High elf changes.

Oh the old high elf army book just about everything was 0-1, so you could take 1 swordmaster, 1 dp, 1 LG, etc essentially you could not make a themed army.

Sorry mundane, so GW, heavy armor etc. I guess I just don't feel their daemonic items (besides banner+daemonic which you have already covered) break them. There are a lot of other stuff that does though.

Also for the horrors, would they also loose their dispel dice, or would they keep that in case of a miscast?

Hmm, not sure. Imo the offensive magical capabilities of the horrors is the strongest part. If they opted to lose all their power dice they would only really have a decent magical defence. So they could be avoided or taken apart with combat/ shooting only if you felt the need.

So I think let them keep the dispels, but take away the power. I like the idea of a daemons player thinking... 'do I just lose the power dice or gamble that I will only lose 2 horrors and keep that extra rank?' They then roll a 6 (7) and lose both the horrors and the extra power dice!

On the mundane armour thing that is a valid point. Based on their current set up it would be unfair because of the lack of choice, but then certain things are much better than others and need limiting..?

Maybe create a daemon themed set of chaos armour in as an mundane option for everyone (4+)? Also a mundane great weapon?

Nice changes, trying them out tomorrow (makes my army spot-on 3000pts). But IDK acout skarbrand. IMO he`s not even worth 650pts

Obviously as a daemons player being able to take less stuff is not great, but I will be interested to hear whether you think it makes a change for the better for you and your opponent.

Or that your opponent doesn't think they're quite so unbalanced.

I've had a go at using my points on a few 'ard lists over at the daemonic legion. Overall they mean the DoC player would be playing with around 10-15% less than they do now. When I mentioned this on warseer that is actually how some tournies do it for DoC

I'm not sure about Skarbrand, he's not something I have any experience with.

Edit: Taken ASF off seekers.

Daemons just cost about 15% too little. Increase all points costs by 15% across the board and they'll be fine.

Here is version #3. PDF attachment below. Listed here incase anyone wants to quote

Daemons of Chaos 7.1
VERSION #3
Army Rules:

Daemonic ward saves are negated by magical attacks.

LORD

Skarbrand: 625 pts

Kairos Fateweaver: 650 pts

Kugath: Same

Bloodthirster: 500pts

Lord of Change: 475pts

Keeper of Secrets: 500pts

Great Unclean One: Same

Daemon Prince: 275 pts
• May take dedication to one god for free (and only one god).
• Level 3 Wizard: 120pts
• Daemonic Gifts and Items (up to 100pts).
• Gains Terror

HERO

Skulltaker: 165 pts
• Juggernaut = 60pts.
• Chariot of Khorne = 85pts

Masque: 130 pts

Epidemius: 145pts

Scribes: 100pts

Herald of Khorne: 115pts
• Juggernaut = 60pts.
• Chariot of Khorne = 85pts

Herald of Tzeentch: 135 pts.
• Chariot of Tzeentch = 70pts

Herald of Slaanesh: 95pts
• Chariot of Slaanesh = 85pts.
• Level 2 Wizard: 35pts

Herald of Nurgle: 120 pts.
• Level 2 Wizard: 35pts

Battle standard bearer may choose up to 50 points from the Daemonic Gifts and Daemonic Items lists. If a daemonic Item is taken a Daemonic Icon cannot also be taken.

CORE

Bloodletters: 14 pts/model
• Gain Hatred (all enemies).

Horrors: 15 pts/ model
• 4+ Ward Save.
• In the event of a miscast Player may elect to lose either D6+1 Horrors as casualties, or 1 power dice (they must state before rolling).
• Magical levels are decided in multiples of 9 for each level (up to level 4).

Plaguebearers: 14 pts/ model
• Gain Regeneration.

Daemonettes: 13 pts/ model
• Gain Always Strike first.

Furies: 13 pts/ model

SPECIAL

Flesh Hounds: 40 pts/ model

Screamers: 33 pts/ model
• Gain 1 Wound
• Slashing attack is S4

Nurglings: Same

Seekers: 26 pts/ model

Karanak: 95pts/ model

RARE

Bloodcrushers: 80 pts/ model
• Toughness 5
• 3+ Armour Save

Flamers:
• Only have D3+1 shots.

Beasts of Nurgle: 90 pts/ model

Fiends: 60 pts/ model

DAEMONIC GIFTS

Magic items are now split like this. Daemonic Gifts are not magic items, but Daemonic Items are.

The rules, points and availability of all these remain unchanged, unless otherwise stated.

Daemonic Gifts:
• Spirit Swallower
• Awesome Strength
• Two Heads
• Tzeentch’s Will
• Dark Insanity
• Many Armed Monstrosity
• Nurgling Infestation
• Spell Destroyer
• Temptator
• Trappings of Nurgle
• Power Vortex: 25pts (The Demon may add an additional Power Dice to the pool once per magic phase. If he does so then at the end of the magic phase he takes a Wound. He may take his Ward save).
• Allure of Slaanesh
• Dark Magister
• Enrapturing Gaze
• Flames of Tzeentch
• Immortal Fury
• Iridescent Corona (S4 instead of S3).
• Master of Sorcery
• Noxious Vapours: 30 pts
• Nurgle’s Rot
• Pestilent Mucus
• Soporific Musk
• Soul Hunger
• Spell Breaker
• Streams of Bile
• Unnatural Swiftness
• Winged Horror
• Slime Trail
• Siren Song: 30 pts

Daemonic Items:
• Balesword
• Etherblade
• Obsidian Armour: 60pts (no longer a choice for heralds)
• Staff of Change
• Staff of Nurgle
• Axe of Khorne
• Daemonic Robes (Can never be wounded on better than a 4+)
• Firestorm Blade
• Armour of Khorne
• Collar of Khorne
• Torment Blade

DAEMONIC ICONS

• Great Icon of Despair: Change from -2Ld to makes the unit cause Terror


MUNDANE OPTIONS

The following are available to all Heralds, outside of their Daemonic Gifts and Daemonic Items allowance.

Hellforged Armour: 10 pts
• 4+ Armour Save

Great Weapon: 4 pts

Additional Hand Weapon: 4 pts

Army rules possible change;

Leave ward saves as is

DoC cannot take advantage of the double 1's where they become stubborn/unbreakable. If they lose combat they should always lose models, as the grip on Real Space loosens. LD 7 lost combat by 11, new LD would be LD -4 player rolls 8, they end up losing 12 dudes.

Going back to old rules-if they roll double 6's the whole unit goes *POP*, well that is the chance you take by playing DoC

And agree that gifts should be as magic items

A small change I am considering adding is that the General's Ld only applies to units from the same god. Daemon Princes pass it on to everyone as normal if they don't take a dedication.

This would have a small impact on the POP scenarios, as many in a mixed army would be at -1 or -2 (using 7 instead of 8 or 9).

Saying that a unit will automatically take a minimum of 1 wound, even if they pass the test seems fairer to large units than it does to small and expensive ones? Not a bad idea, I will have to ask around for more feedback.

I personally only have a few problems with the Daemons Codex. . .

Flesh Hounds of Khorne
These are currently equivalent to Blood Knights and cost like 20 points less. . .
-Keep at current price and reduce to 1 wound
-Raise to 50 points, and leave the same. . .

Daemonic Gifts should count as magic items
-It makes no sense that they would create an entire separate section of items that are immune to all the other codex's anti magic gear items.

If you dropped flesh hounds to 1 wound you'd have to drop their points too. Flamers could be D3 instead of D6 shots and slightly less points. Or you could make them slower, or make them take the -1 for multiple shots, or reduce their range. (Flamers are insane).
Make gifts = magic items.
And put up the costs of some of them. (Obsidian armour, I'm looking at you).

Horrors could be Special, so no Core PD.

a better idea for the horrors is to get rid of the spell casting and swap for a ranged attack like in the 40k book

something like this
RNG STR RULES
12' 3 flaming, thrown, multiple shot x2

this way they're not cheesy yet are still useful to a daemon player (I still don't know what GW were thinking making a whole unit magic users XO)

as for the fleshhounds maybe -1 movement so they're movement 7 not 8 this way heavy armoued empire and brettonian knights and elven cavalry can get in first and attempt to take the hounds out before they attack

I do agree with the ward save being negated by magic attacks like it originally was

the Beasts of Nurgle need to be cheaper as they're definantly overpriced point wise