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HQ:
175
Commander Shadowsun

Elites:
226
3 Crisis Suits
-Team Leader w/ Drone Controller, Shield Drones, Bonding Knife
-Plasma/Fusion/Multi-Tracker

199
-Team Leader w/ Drone Controller, Shield Drones, Bonding Knife
-TL Missile pods, Targeting Array

Troops:
60
6 Fire Warriors

200
20 Kroot
-10 kroot hounds

140
20 Kroot

Fast Attack:
211
8 Pathfinders
-Devilfish
oDisruption Pods
oSeeker Missile
oFlechette Dischargers

Heavy Support:
275
3 Broadside Battlesuits
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Team leader w/ 2 Shield Drones, Bonding Knife

160
2 Broadside Battlesuits
-Advanced Stabilization System

165
Hammerhead Gunship
-Burst Cannons
-Multi-tracker
-Disruption Pod

Basically tried to load up on diverse forms of objective holding, railguns up the ying, and markerlights.

From my minimal experience with Tau i have realized two things. First, Devilfish Rock. Second, Rail heads Rock.
Now broadsides may very well rock too, however they can't really touch horde. Rail heads can do both.


199
-Team Leader w/ Drone Controller, Shield Drones, Bonding Knife
-TL Missile pods, Targeting Array

stacking TL with a targeting Array seems silly in a list with 16 markerlights. A flamer would help your anti-horde.

Also, IMO, Shadow sun is a very bad choice for this list. Farsight would provide free bonding knives(you seem to like em) to all the suits for 5 points less.

Farsight is also much worse at EVERYTHING except close combat, doesn't give the Ld bonuses, and doesn't allow me to take kroot, more than 1 squad of broadsides or pathfinders.

The deathrains will never be given the benefit of markerlights, that is for the broadsides, the plasma/fusion suits, and the hammerhead. They will only get one if a light transport needs to die and my broadsides are already markerlighted up, and even then it is a bonus to have the TA because then I only need to spend 1 markerlight getting them up to snuff.

Calperr is right. The Targetting array is overkill for deathrains who will be hitting 75% of the time. You can drop it for flamers in case you get in close to a horde or need to boot someone out of cover.

I personally don't like the fusion/plasma combo on suits. It makes them get in too close to the enemy where there is too much stuff that can assault you.

What does the Hammerhead have on it? I'm guessing a railgun. Think about changing it to an Ion cannon. It gives you 2 extra shots against MEq and will still have the capability to destroy most transports. You lose the submunition blast but with a target lock you can have the burst cannons shot at infantry while the railgun goes against monstrous creatures/vehicles/meqs whatever.

You should be able to squeeze in more Kroot into the squad you have (Kroot hoounds). A second firewarrior squad is also a nice idea. Have them steal both the devilfishes and run to objectives late in game.

for 10ppm the targeting array turns 4-5 hits out of 6 to 5-6 hits out of 6, that is worth it to me.

The only reason I have a hammerhead is for the submunitions. I am not going to change to an ionhead and lose that.

More kroot might be nice, but I dont have the points for it. FWs either.

Your ary doesn't bring much to the table. My 1850 Tau has much more offense.


Shadowsun is a waste of points.

The best XV8 config is simply plasma + missile pod + multi tracker.

All you have is 2 troop choice. Instead of 20 kroot take 10 kroot with 5-10 hounds. Try to get 2 squads like this.

2 squads of pathfinders is overkill. YOu will have a plenty of marker hits... But not enough shooty units to take advantage of them. YOu need more squads of XV8 for those marker lights!

Your heavy choice seems fine. I often take up to 6 broadsides but lately have been running 2 XV88 and 2 hammerhead at 1850.

Your ary doesn't bring much to the table. My 1850 Tau has much more offense.

Care to post it?

Shadowsun is a waste of points.

Shadowsun is an excellent tank hunter, extremely surviveable, and helps with the Tau's biggest issue: Leadership.

The best XV8 config is simply plasma + missile pod + multi tracker.

No, it's not.

All you have is 2 troop choice. Instead of 20 kroot take 10 kroot with 5-10 hounds. Try to get 2 squads like this.

And where do i get the points for that?

2 squads of pathfinders is overkill. YOu will have a plenty of marker hits... But not enough shooty units to take advantage of them. YOu need more squads of XV8 for those marker lights!

2 squads of broadsides, a hammerhead, and 6 crisis suits, are plenty of shooty units.

Shadowsun. Eeeerrrrmmm. A bit of a messy character. While the leadershp bonus may be nice, why the hell does she need Fusion Blasters? The charcters a mess because suits stay back, while this unit cleary is an overpriced suicide suit with a leadership aura that should be used while sitting back with the suits. Going with a cheaper AFP / PR or MP commander is just a better idea. Save this one for the friendly games. (Crisis are leadership 8 and really if you want to compound your whole army into 18" go ahead, all your suits in one area screams suicide because it's much easier to dual assault you when it's like that.) She is good for gunlines, not good for mech armies.

The Deathrains don't need a targetting array. If anything slap a flamer on them but really they are acurate enough.

Plasma Fusion... I just don't get why people do this. Sure, if a Landraider ends up in your midst you can fusion it to death but that's abit counter intuative since whats coming out of the Landraider can hurt you way more than you can hurt it that close up (even with the jump at the assault phase to use fusion your 12" away then the terminators assault your squad and poof!). (ex. TH/SS terminators, TLC terminators, Grey Knights, crapload of Bloodclaws, whatever) If you want mobile fusion blaster, get Pirrahnas. PR/MP would be more sane here to allow light armor hunting and they could hurt terminators etc. from range where they are safe.

Not enough troops for a competitive force. Flamers make Kroot hurt and with the non-lack of flamers in most competitive lists one squad won't cut it. And the squad needs hounds.

I also have to agree with others, 16 pathfinders is overkill. Drop one squad for more kroot and maybe some Piranhas (I can never spell this right).

I would also reccomend dropping the 2nd broadside team for another Hammerhead. Having more mobility and the submunission rounds is never a bad thing. And, this group is pretty fragile per se due to them not having any shield drones so lascannons and ML's will be headed towards this unit I'm betting.

Let's look at the list below. (EDIT: Forgot to link it's origin http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/09/my-tau-empire.html)

1 Commander Shas'el @ 92 Pts
Hard-wired Target Lock; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 112 Pts
Add Kroot Hounds; Kroot Rifle (x10)
7 Kroot Hounds @ [42] Pts

10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 112 Pts
Add Kroot Hounds; Kroot Rifle (x10)
7 Kroot Hounds @ [42] Pts

6 Fire Warrior @ 60 Pts
Pulse Rifle (x6)

8 Pathfinder @ 216 Pts
Markerlight (x8); Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [120] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 150 Pts
Fusion Blaster (x2); Gun Drones (x2); Disruption Pod (x1); Target Lock (x1); Targeting Array (x2)
2 Gun Drones @ [0] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 175 Pts
Railgun; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 175 Pts
Railgun; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 200 Pts
Team Leader; Twin linked Railgun; Broadside Battlesuit; Smart Missile System; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [80] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Advanced Stabilisation System
2 Shield Drone @ [30] Pts
Shield Generator

While having a single less Railgun than you, it has another scoring unit, two mobile lane blocking Piranhas (with FB which are nice), and also has 3x more suits and more longrange firepower (10x MP's, 10x PR (and for fun we'll count) 2x FB 4x RG while you have 3x MP 3x PR 5x FB 5x RG hmmh) while giving up, what, 8 markerlights and a fish?

mattv2099 wrote:Your ary doesn't bring much to the table. My 1850 Tau has much more offense.


Shadowsun is a waste of points.

The best XV8 config is simply plasma + missile pod + multi tracker.

All you have is 2 troop choice. Instead of 20 kroot take 10 kroot with 5-10 hounds. Try to get 2 squads like this.

I disagree With the fireknife suits, they were great in 4th but simply do not cut it in fifth. Its a BS3 unit, that gets insta killed by meltas and costs around 60-70 pts per model. If anything, I would personally stick with deathrains or firestorms as you are going to have a problem with horde spam.

Kroot wise, I find groups of 17 to be optimal, 11 kroot, 6 hounds is enough where it merits a decent amounts of wounds for a LD test.

Other wise, I agree, not many bodies on the table, way too many pathfinders. Using 2 squads is fine, but not full squads. Thats what, 400 pts of models that do no damage... not recomended


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and ezeek, the only problem I see with those suit squads is one instakill shot or 2 unsaved anything shots, and your rolling LD potentially losing the entire squad. Its a lot harder for suits now that its true line of sight...

You could just add in a bonding knife to be sure np really

Too many pathfinders. You have to keep in mind that markerlights, in and of themselves, don't do anything. Also, even if you put your firewarriors in one pathfinder devilfish, the other one is kind of useless, though you still payed about 100 pts for it.
Which brings up my next point. If you are putting your firewarriors in the devilfish to capture objectives, which you should be with two troops choices, you should probably make it a warfish. Instead of your current fish gear, give it an SMS, MT, flechette, and maybe TA and Disruption Pod. Seeker missles are generally inefficient, since they require four successful rolls to destroy a vehicle. Never trust your dice, they are backstabbers.
What exactly are the helios suits for? I assume it's anti MEQ. Consider TL plasma instead, unless you are incredibly skilled with JSJ and judging distances. TL plasma costs a few points more and doesn't get as many shots, but it can opperate from further away, so it is more surviveable. Even if you are great with the JSJ distances, there will always be situations where you are simply not safe at 18", in which case you are able to pull out and continue getting kills from up to 30" away.

Just some things to consider...

For pathfinders I enjoy 2 squads of 5 in a 1500 point list with 2 rail rifles each. It gives the squad some firepower and scares some space marine characters saying I have S6AP3 guns that can fire at different targets form the rest of the unit. Oh and they cause pinning tests too. I don't have an 1850 list but currently my 1500 point list I've tabled Space Marines, left an Eldar player with 4 models left on the table, and almost tabled a Tyranid player.

Commander Shadowsun isn't valid as the force commander, because she isn't wearing a Crisis suit.

You won't get the comp love with only 6 FWs, if that matters.

This list isnt competative beacuse;
- Most importantly, you have only two troop choices. This is sketchy at 1500pts.

- Targetting arrays on the suits - Isnt needed when you have so many markerlights

- Empty devilfish, unless you plan to transport the Heavy Weapon pathfinders

- Lack of target lock on the broadsides. Yes Adv SS are fun & good and magical but you have only two separate heavy anti-armour shots per turn..

- Complete lack of anti-horde.

EzeKK wrote:blahblahblah

You could have just linked to this page:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/09/my-tau-empire.html

Canonessrory:

Shadowsun isn't competitive. Neither is Farsight and both are for the same reason, they're too expensive and aren't good enough at one thing to be worth it. You need a direction with your army and although you say it's for versatility in objective grabbing I'm not seeing the mobility required to make that work. Drop a pathfinder team and put in some pirahnas - it doesn't matter if they don't kill gak the whole game if they can make a bottom of 5 objective grab with a 24" skimmer move. The fact that they're great tank hunters is just gravy.

I think you've also lost track of what deathrains are supposed to be for - a cheap (CHEAP!) JSJ unit to use against transports and high toughness targets. When your "cheap" unit is suddenly running you just short of 200 points, you've done something wrong. Either re-tool these guys (gun drones and flamers instead of shield drones and targeting arrays) or just give them missle/plasma. You can make points for that and 2 fusion gun/targeting array pirahnas by dropping a pathfinder team.

Shadowsun is only good for her leadership boost. She has a small size which makes hiding her easy as well. the problem that Tau face with her is that Tau are long range stand off and destroy. Her weaponry is 12" fusion. Ummm ok? This doesn't sync up together at all.

Crisis suits at 1500 points or so are best taken as groups of 2. Broadsides work best in groups of two. A Teamlead with target lock and ASS on two broadsides is 170. You can take down 2 tanks\transports a turn this way.

For 175 points I can get a shield drone, HWMT, AFP, CIB, Iridium armor and stim injectors ... with points left over. Lots of points left over. A bonding knife and another shield drone add another 20 points. Oh and this is a Shas'O I'm talking about.

I may have to take a relook at this list at a later time.

I don't see why 2 full units of pathfinders is such a bad plan. They're a huge asset to your Broadsides and Crisis suits even though they don't directly do any damage. Full units sound wise because there will almost certainly be numerous times when you'll want to use lots of counters on a single unit. 100 points is rather cheap for something that improves your army's functioning so substantially. The Devilsfish requirement is a bit of a drawback, in my opinion, but it's pretty durable and can block off enemy charges. Tank shocking stuff into clumps is also nifty.

Shadowsun seems pretty "meh" to me. I'd take a Shas'el with a targeting array and whatever weapons you like instead. That'll free up points for another troop choice.

Speaking of troops, get Kroot Hounds! Assault is obviously a last-gasp kind of situation for Tau, but it's going to happen eventually. Having something with high initiative and nice strength will help a whole lot.

Alrighty. I dropped one squad of pathfinders, added a squad of kroot, and some kroot hounds to the original squad.

Very nice. All you have to do now is make sure an unfortunate accident befalls Shadowsun and you'll have a decent list.

Canonness Rory wrote:140
20 Kroot

Do you want to shoot str4 ap- boltguns with your BS3 kroot or do you want them to soak up as many wounds as possible and then win combat?

If you wanna shoot, dont change a thing. If you want to win combats/improve wound soaking potential then swap 10 kroot for as many hounds in pts.

I want them to infiltrate onto an objective and shoot from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW guys shadowsun is important to this list. She goes with the fusion/plasma suits and boosts their power, leadership, and survivability better than any other HQ i could choose. Leadership and surviveability are among the Tau's greatest weaknesses, especially of 3-man crisis suit squads.

Where will your suicide suits be? Way ahead of the army. How many units does Shadowsun's leadership bubble catch with that? Probably just the one. So why not give them their leadership with a Shas'o joining the unit instead? Same effect, cheaper. Woo.

I would scrap the fusion gun suits all together, throwing an expensive unit away like that when you have so many better options to kill tanks doesn't make any sense. Your battlesuits are best at killing light vehicles and heavy infantry. You know why everybody uses plasma/missiles? Because it works. Competitive army lists aren't made with new and original units and there's a reason why you don't see Shadowsun in tournaments!

MY Xv8 JSJ behind Devilfish and HH's.

Trust us. Shadowsun is pure fail.

Plasma/missile is the best. It's your pathfinders that make them the best. You mark up a squad you want dead. And your plasma/missile XV8's make that squad dead. I run 10 plasma/missile XV8's in my army.

The only way I can see shadowsun be effective is in the middle of a huge gunline radiating out from the middle of her. Surround her with broadsides, pathfinders, and lots of things to soak up wounds like Kroot and Firewarriors.

The list still is not as good as a large hybrid list that is well balanced but it could be fun to try.

rogueeyes wrote:The only way I can see shadowsun be effective is in the middle of a huge gunline radiating out from the middle of her. Surround her with broadsides, pathfinders, and lots of things to soak up wounds like Kroot and Firewarriors.

The list still is not as good as a large hybrid list that is well balanced but it could be fun to try.

Someone else just posted a list like that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/260942.page#1041866

Both that list and this suffer from being illegal because you can't use Shadowsun as your sole HQ.

The Tau codex says Crisis Suit Commander 1+.

You have to have a Crisis suit HQ.

Shadowsun can do some good if you manage to deepstrike her between a pair of Land Raiders and torch them both. Or if you can get her into a cluster of Basilisks or something like that. On the whole I agree she is too expensive, a very high risk option if you put her into combat, and if you just use her as a morale bubble, you're paying for the fusion guns you will never fire.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Both that list and this suffer from being illegal because you can't use Shadowsun as your sole HQ.

The Tau codex says Crisis Suit Commander 1+.

You have to have a Crisis suit HQ.

Not true. It says in Shadowsun's entry that she counts as the 1+ Fire Caste Commander that your army must take, so using her to lead your army isn't illegal, it's just a bad idea.

Farsight doesn't count as your compulsory commander though. Go figure.

GW errata & FAQ says O'Shovah counts as a commander.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180141_Tau_Empire_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Double-check the point about Shadowsun. I can't because my codex is in Japan.

I got it right in front of me, she counts.

That's cool then.

Dont take Shadowsun unless you just think its cool