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Shadowsun is a waste of points.

Not really! She does make good for Being a distraction and taking out Tanks with her Invisibility and fusion gun.

The best XV8 config is simply plasma + missile pod + multi tracker.

LOLZ Obviously You never Used Cyclic Ion Blaster or its little Special Issue Brother or The Fusion Blaster/Plasma/Multi combo or the Twin Linked Missile Pod / Target Array / Hardwired Target Lock combo that allows you to fire both Missile Pods at TWO different Tanks at a 4BS and not counting Marker Lights. Or the Hard Wired Multitracker and Missile Pod, Fusion Blaster and Plasma Rifile Combo....DUH!

All you have is 2 troop choice. Instead of 20 kroot take 10 kroot with 5-10 hounds. Try to get 2 squads like this.

Nop! He Needs a FULL Kroot Squad with hounds and Krootox together. Hide HALF of the troop behind cover so you get conver saves. Fire with the Krootox at tanks and Terminators or whatever the )$%@) is killing you. Then Rapid Fire with the 20 Kroot and Assault when they get within inches of you. Plus its Large Eye Candy .. OH I think I will concentrate fire at Kroot and Easily kill them...(Not) and Waste time and rounds killing them and not the importent stuff....

Distraction!

2 squads of pathfinders is overkill. YOu will have a plenty of marker hits... But not enough shooty units to take advantage of them. YOu need more squads of XV8 for those marker lights!

No...no you dont. Markerlights make the entire Army. X2 squads is fine..

Try one squad all markerlights and another with some rail guns in it.


Try running a little more Firewarriors and put them with Pulse Rifles inside the Devilfish.

I really think you should read Ezekk's post again. Even if you do not like the list there, I agree a lot with every point he brought up about your list.

I will add in that what you plan on doing with Kroot is not a great plan. Moving them forward to take an objective and shoot from it is not the best use for them. They do extremely well at blocking lines of approach toward your shootier elements. They are the only thing in your army that will not consistently make their points back, but that utility will allow other elements to more than make up for it.

In conclusion, kroot hounds.

Fearspect wrote:I really think you should read Ezekk's post again. Even if you do not like the list there, I agree a lot with every point he brought up about your list.

I will add in that what you plan on doing with Kroot is not a great plan. Moving them forward to take an objective and shoot from it is not the best use for them. They do extremely well at blocking lines of approach toward your shootier elements. They are the only thing in your army that will not consistently make their points back, but that utility will allow other elements to more than make up for it.

In conclusion, kroot hounds.

Kroot are an excellent tarpit and do normally make their points back. One assault at a squad of terminators and you will end up with wounds being dealt to the terminators. I've managed to take out a few Grey Knight Terminators with a squad of 20 Kroot and 4 hounds. The sheer amount of attacks is what make them great in close combat. Sitting them behind your firing line and assaulting as soon as the enemy gets close works as a good tactic and also outflanking them for area denial works as well. I've been coming around to the use of Kroot and disliking fire warriors more and more. Still my fire warriors play an important part - being able to fire off a volley of S5 shots at long range.

Relying on a single unit of pathfinders for your markerlights is risky. They cannot move and shoot and if they need to reposition because of the enemy you lose a round of markerlights with them. With two squads you have the ability to reposition one squad and still set up markerlights with the other. Also you have a backup in case one gets overrun. With mechanized lists this can happen quite quickly. I've recently had a Deamon Prince fly over and ravage them on his way to taking out crisis suits further away.

Shadowsun is a waste of points.

Shadowsun is an excellent tank hunter, extremely surviveable, and helps with the Tau's biggest issue: Leadership.

Not really. I like suits, they can certainly be more mobile than other heavy-weapon-equivalent units in other armies, but they aren't particularly fast or durable. shadowsun, is a fun character, but the way they designed her makes her a pain to use (she can't join units until her drones are dead, and if her drones are dead, you no longer get 18'' ld boost... ugly as hell.) I'd love to use her in stealth team if it wasn't so, but it is, so whatever.

As for tank hunting, railguns do it better, cheaper, and don't die after you kill the tank. Oh, and don't need to rely on deep strike or the tank driving right up to you. that too.

leadership is a more legitimate use, since tau probably have the worst ld in the game at the moment. That said, she's expensive, and the only other way you can get mileage out of her in a suit-heavy army (where she thrives) is to hope the enemy is dumb enough to waste time shooting her. I hope they fix her in the next codex because she had a lot of (wasted) potential to be, well, fun. or useful.

The best XV8 config is simply plasma + missile pod + multi tracker.

No, it's not.

I'm going to give my 2 cents here:

Well, plasma/missile is the "best" build in the sense that it allows you to deal with MEQ's, TEQ's, FNP units, monstrous creatures, and transports equally well and at range, which cannot be said of any other suit build, for the most part.

That said, that does not mean you should automatically use it, particularly if you're still figuring tau out - suits are one of the hardest units to figure out how to use properly in a tau army, since not noly do you have to figure out what builds to use, you need to know when to advance, how to deploy them, how to use them in cover, and how to hide and protect the bastards. in such a case, there are other suit builds - like twin-linked missiles + flamers, or missiles+burst - that might be better for a new player, since they use less points, and (notably for the deathrains) are able to operate more easily without marker support (which means that you can deploy them more "freely")

That said, you should almost always have at least one squad of plasma/missile suits, seriously. If you need railguns for "land raider insurance", then think of the fireknife as "terminator/plague marine insurance".

All you have is 2 troop choice. Instead of 20 kroot take 10 kroot with 5-10 hounds. Try to get 2 squads like this.

And where do i get the points for that?

well, part of it will come from breaking up the kroot squads, some will come from saving unnecessary wr gear on the elites, and a LOT of points can be gained from dropping shadowsun. fun fact: 10 kroot and 3 hounds (which is all you really need at minimum, actually) is... a wopping 88 points. it's not that expensive to field a medium-ish squad of kroot, honestly.

2 squads of pathfinders is overkill. YOu will have a plenty of marker hits... But not enough shooty units to take advantage of them. YOu need more squads of XV8 for those marker lights!

2 squads of broadsides, a hammerhead, and 6 crisis suits, are plenty of shooty units.

now, about the list currently:

Canonness Rory wrote:HQ:
175
Commander Shadowsun

Some people will tell you to drop her, and if you wanted to max out your competitiveness... well, yeah, actually, you should. but for argument's sake, I'm going to not to. However, I will tell you that the composition of you army need to change a bit if you want her to work.

Elites:
226
3 Crisis Suits
-Team Leader w/ Drone Controller, Shield Drones, Bonding Knife
-Plasma/Fusion/Multi-Tracker

suicide suits are terrible. I certainly hope that you aren't just taking some because you intend to suicide shadowsun as well. really, not only will these guys not survive the drop, they aren't really guaranteed to kill what you want them to, and even if they do? what then? they lack the range to threaten anything else. it's incredibly wasteful and unreliable. in short, uncompetative, and this is in a army with shadowsun, so you can't really screw around.

This squad could easily become a plasma/missile squad and be one of your main firepower units in you army, popping out from behind a devilfish or railhead to attack armor and MEQ's. it would cost exactly the same amount in that regard since fusion is the same price as missiles.

Other than that... you don't need drones. bonding you can take or leave, but if you're under 50% you're usually dead anyways.

199
-Team Leader w/ Drone Controller, Shield Drones, Bonding Knife
-TL Missile pods, Targeting Array

Target array is as noted by others, overkill. the 3rd hardpoint on these guys is usually a flamer, not because flamers are great or anything, but because it's the best of the "cheap" options. and while I do NOT recommend actively trying to get them in flamer range, 3 templates will certainly put a lot of wounds on a unit.

again, drop the drones.

Troops:
60
6 Fire Warriors

ok. yes. this is fine.

200
20 Kroot
-10 kroot hounds

the thing about kroot is this: they are supposed to die. this is because A: suits put out more firepower than kroot, B: kroot are dirt cheap and can stay alive vs. shooting in cover if the keep going to ground, and C: it is relatively easy, due t the kroot's deployment options to get them positioned to protect your suits (and tanks, and pathfinders, etc.)

what kroot don't do so well is win combats. even when you pour points into them, they will still typically get stomped by most things that look at them funny. so, keep them cheap, and use them as a screen. you can easily break this big expensive unit into 2 units of 10 guys and 5 hounds, and suddenly, you have a big tarpit that will protect suits from assault and hold down objectives for you. this is particularly critical in this list where you NEED to do this to get your points worth out of shadowsun's ld bonus by clumping up your army.

140
20 Kroot

see above, but basically, if you already have the firewarriors + 2 squads of kroot, you probably have enough troops. if you want more, be my guest, but you're bringing shadowsun, and so you want to bring more suits so you can get your point's worth in the leadership bonus.

Fast Attack:
211
8 Pathfinders
-Devilfish
oDisruption Pods
oSeeker Missile
oFlechette Dischargers

you can comfortably drop the seeker. normally you need and ui for ld8 but again, you have shadowsun, so no so much now.

Heavy Support:
275
3 Broadside Battlesuits
-Advanced Stabilization System
-Team leader w/ 2 Shield Drones, Bonding Knife

160
2 Broadside Battlesuits
-Advanced Stabilization System

I'd take those points you'd spent on drones in elites, and redistribute them onto the 2 man team. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure you need a 3rd guy in the first team, particularly when you need very badly to find points for both and crisis HQ to make the list legal, and for more suits to make the list good.

165
Hammerhead Gunship
-Burst Cannons
-Multi-tracker
-Disruption Pod

it's fine, but not mandatory. in a list like this, again, you can benefit more from more suits.

here's my take on this list:

shas'el, plasma/missile/tracker, bonding. 92.
2 plasma/missile/tracker bodyguards. 144

shadowsun 175

3 missile/plasma suits. 186

3TL missile/ flamer suits. 141.

3TL missile/ flamer suits. 141.

6 firewarriors. 60

10 kroot, 3 hounds. 88

10 kroot, 3 hounds. 88

8 pathfinders 96. (you can add ui and bonding if you want more flexible deployment.)

fish, d-pod. 85. (and you can add guns on here if you want it to do more other than be mobile cover)

2 broadsides, team leader, 2 shield drones, bonding, ass. 200.

2 broadsides, team leader, 2 shield drones, bonding, ass. 200.

railhead, burst, mt, d-pod. 165.

this brings you to 1861. drop ten points somewhere and you're golden. you have 5 railguns, which is enough to make tanks hurt. you have a ton of suits, half of whom can deal with the really nasty units (termies and such) and the other half can just stick to killing rhinos without eating up markerlights. the kroot give you a screen, the tanks are mobile cover, and can be thrown forward mid-game as sacrifice units to keep the gunline alive. And shadowsun? she sits in the back, sips something alcoholic, and lets everyone else soak in the ld10. I'd suggest you'd keep here slightly in front, with her drones in a line, and let the rest of the suits jump in front and behind her so they can get the cover save from shooting through a unit. nice, yes?

if you do decide to drop shadowsun, you should probably add a few piranha and ld upgrades on the pathfinders.

Thoughts?

suicide suits are terrible.

Good thing they're not suicide suits then.

This squad could easily become a plasma/missile squad and be one of your main firepower units in you army

You're suggesting I drop a good tank killer/great m/teq for a mediocre tank killer/decent meq killer? try again.

Other than that... you don't need drones.

15 points to protect my expensive suits from instant death? Yes please.

Target array is as noted by others, overkill.

There is not such thing as overkill. Only "open fire" and "time to reload"

particularly when you need very badly to find points for both and crisis HQ to make the list legal

The list is legal with just shadowsun. Read your codex.

Vasarto wrote:

LOLZ Obviously You never Used Cyclic Ion Blaster or its little Special Issue Brother or The Fusion Blaster/Plasma/Multi combo or the Twin Linked Missile Pod / Target Array / Hardwired Target Lock combo that allows you to fire both Missile Pods at TWO different Tanks at a 4BS and not counting Marker Lights. Or the Hard Wired Multitracker and Missile Pod, Fusion Blaster and Plasma Rifile Combo....DUH!

Okay, someone needs to address this. Vasarto: Thank you for denouncing PR/MP, it is a bad config for 5th, but really? What works for you works for you, but I just was surprised no one addressed this: TL Missle Pod with a targeting array and HW target lock cannot fire at two separate targets. That is not legal. By any stretch of the imagination. The only way to do that is with Shadowsun's Multi-tracker Advanced Target Lock, which can only be taken by Shadowsun. I don't know how you imagine that a Targeting array and/or HW target lock let you fire at different targets, but they can't. Sorry.

I was amazed that no one addressed this and felt it necessary to do so. Please return to correcting the list. Thank you.

So Rory, I'm just wondering did you already buy shadowsun or something? Cause with every single person saying she's bad so far you still seem unmovable in the decision to keep her. Which is ok, it's your army, just curious as to why.

Anyway, I'd lighten up the add-ons and fit more troops choices. If you're playing an objectives mission and your opponent isn't totally dense, they will focus on acing your couple of troops and then the most you can hope for is a tie regardless of how much you can kill. I'd suggest either cheapening the suits and get more FW, or pop a pos. relay on someone and slowly siphon your non-troops units onto the table until turn 5. But even with this option you'll only be able to take the 2 objectives at best (and by 'at best' I mean your squads get on the table where you want them, make it to the objective without dying, and you've totally cleared out the objectives prior to their arrival). I feel like your list in its current state is already set up to struggle.

Canonness Rory wrote:

suicide suits are terrible.

Good thing they're not suicide suits then.

Ah. I was mistaken. so...how do you intend to get them in range, then?

This squad could easily become a plasma/missile squad and be one of your main firepower units in you army

You're suggesting I drop a good tank killer/great m/teq for a mediocre tank killer/decent meq killer? try again.

This argument works if fusion/plasma was in fact, either of those things. However, how exactly, does it get close to the tanks, again? and why do you want to do use such a unit in an army build around killing the enemy before they reach your lines?

More bluntly, ask yourself this: let us assume the enemy fields a LRR with the usual assortment of TH/SS termies. let us also assume that due to horrendous rolling, the railguns fail to kill it before it's basically sitting in your deployment zone. Now, yes, the fusions may kill it - but to what benefit? The land raider is already in your zone; it has already done it's job, which is to force a dangerous unit in your face. fusion/plasma will hurt the termies, yes - but so will marker-benefiting plasma/missiles, and the plasma/missiles suits actually get to do stuff before things drive right up to them.

This argument can then be extended to rhino/transport heavy armies of all shapes and sizes that seek to deploy units in your face - railguns are nice, but good luck stopping a mass-chimera/vendetta army without the tools for the job.

Your railguns can only engage so many targets, and the range on missiles is tremendous boon. the ability to hurt certain "rock hard" units like terminators and plague marines is a great benefit. I completely fail to see what is so "great" about fusion/plasma suits, since they will effectively not be doing anything for the first 2 turns of the game.

If you do not buy my argument for plasma/missile, it is fine. just use twin-linked missile suits; they're alright and will do the job for you just as well. But if you do so, you will have trouble stopping termies and other tough units like them. You could splurge a huge amount of points on a one-trick pony suit, like fusion/plasma, OR you could just stick plasma on a suit with missiles and get a good all-rounder. your call.

Other than that... you don't need drones.

15 points to protect my expensive suits from instant death? Yes please.

no it's not. A s8 ap3 battle cannon round can nail the entire squad and because of the way wound allocation works, you would still end up losing suits since you'd be forced to allocate hits to them.

It's easier and more productive to protect suits from instant death by hiding them behind fish and railheads.

Target array is as noted by others, overkill.

There is not such thing as overkill. Only "open fire" and "time to reload"

I am finding it increasingly hard to take you seriously. It's not necessary as an upgrade since twin-linked bs3 already hits 75% of the time. the hardpoint is better spent on making the suit cheaper and giving it a secondary "emergency" option, which a flamer is - and emergency option, nothing more, in case you decide to use this as "evidence" that close ranged guns (like fusion) are any good on suits.

particularly when you need very badly to find points for both and crisis HQ to make the list legal

The list is legal with just shadowsun. Read your codex.

This is mainly a FAQ issue. All I know is a vaguely remember a FAQ that said that she doesn't count as a +1 firewarrior commander. I could be wrong, but it's such a minor issue that I can't really bring my self to look it up.

Anyways, I hope you found this useful, and good luck with your games.

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:

Vasarto wrote:

LOLZ Obviously You never Used Cyclic Ion Blaster or its little Special Issue Brother or The Fusion Blaster/Plasma/Multi combo or the Twin Linked Missile Pod / Target Array / Hardwired Target Lock combo that allows you to fire both Missile Pods at TWO different Tanks at a 4BS and not counting Marker Lights. Or the Hard Wired Multitracker and Missile Pod, Fusion Blaster and Plasma Rifile Combo....DUH!

Okay, someone needs to address this. Vasarto: Thank you for denouncing PR/MP, it is a bad config for 5th, but really? What works for you works for you, but I just was surprised no one addressed this: TL Missle Pod with a targeting array and HW target lock cannot fire at two separate targets. That is not legal. By any stretch of the imagination. The only way to do that is with Shadowsun's Multi-tracker Advanced Target Lock, which can only be taken by Shadowsun. I don't know how you imagine that a Targeting array and/or HW target lock let you fire at different targets, but they can't. Sorry.

I was amazed that no one addressed this and felt it necessary to do so. Please return to correcting the list. Thank you.

Really does this argument need to take place again? Most tournaments will rule the same as the INAT FAQ - the target lock allows you to split fire. If you don't agree that's fine but the majority of people play this way.

Shield Drones on suits are nice. If you have the entire squad bunched up (such as after a deepstrike) then a pie plate can take you out. Most likely though is that if you play smart and the opponent rolls average the pie plate will scatter and will only cause a couple wounds if that. I'd be more concerned with obliterators firing lascannons at my suits than having a pie plate dropped on them - or anyone firing lascannons at them. The shield drones will protect against a few of those shots which is what they are meant for. Will this be the case in all circumstances? No it won't. Then again Tau have Railguns that will Instant Death more things than a lascannon. Saying this I would put the Shield Drones on the squad of Broadsides without any. A pie plate is much more likely to take out this squad - or anything armed with 2 lascannons.

uhh....

The target lock does what it says: It allows a model in the unit equipped with a target lock to fire at a different target than the rest of the unit.

It does NOT allow a single model to fire bullets at multiple units at once. WTF, and where did you get that idea?

Yeah, I'm going with dash on that one. I heard the INAT FAQ was weird, but I had no idea how weird until just this moment.

Ah and here I was thinking I could split rapid fire shots from my plasma rifles between two different units. Dash, you had to just go and ruin my day, didn't you?

There's too much for me to quote and I forget who said what, but there's a few things to address here:

MP/Plasma - it's popular. It's popular because it works. Is an "omg cheap!" fusion squad for example really that cheap when it only ever kills one unit and then bites it? No, not really. If you're just trying to be non-conformist, fine, but don't try to skirt around the real issue.

Shield Drones - 20 (+5 pts to give a suit access to them) for one, or 35 for two. 35 points for 2 extra wounds. 4 shield drones runs you more than the price of a whole MP/plasma suit AND make your squad take more morale tests from shooting! This is a good investment? Play smart, use cover. So what if a lascannon pops one of your guys anyway, good thing you saved points to buy more, huh?

Deep Striking - how many of you have dropped in a fusion team and then thought "man, that was a good use of points to kill one thing and then die immediately"? I bet you guys also believe your opponents when they go "oh I'm not cackling with glee, I uh, just remembered something funny."

If you feel the need for precision vehicle killing crisis suits should not be your first answer. Broadsides and Hammerheads do it better, more reliably, less dangerously. Piranhas are cheaper, less vulnerable to assault, and actually have uses aside from being suicide melta guns.

Fusion on XV8s - see above. Missile Pods are the same price and you'll get more out of them than you ever will from fusion guns. Here are my reasons:

Not everybody has a 3+ armor save.

The ones who do have a 3+ armor save also have a 4+ cover save. (no, dedicating a squad of pathfinders to make your fusion suits useful is not a good answer)

If you make them roll enough saves, he's going to fail some.

And the most obvious - playing at 12" (even if it's technically up to 18" for you) is a bad game plan for tau.

Shadowsun - I think I addressed this in an earlier post before this thread came back to the first page, and my stance is the same. Too expensive, too scattered. Is it that you want a female general? Break out the modeling putty and give your crisis suits some cleavage. Then you can have your boobies and not throw away points.

@ the guy extolling the virtues of krootoxes, bashing MP/Plasma, promoting rail rifles on pathfinders - aren't you the one who's always complaining about how awful tau are and how much their rules suck?

Rory:
You are using plasma/fusion, which people seem to want you to switch out for plasma/MP. How are you using the suits? I assume it's not for heavy tank killing, since your heavy support slots are literally filled with a grand total of 6 railguns, 5 of which are twin-linked. And I assume it's not for transport killing, since you have a team of deathrains with an 88% chance of hitting with each of their six shots. Which, by the way, is not overkill, since they are only str7, so they need as many hits as they can get, and according to Murphy's law what can go wrong will go wrong. Your dice hate you.

Anyway, if you have heavy and light tanks covered by other units, your plasma/fusion suits must be covering meq/teq, am I correct in assuming that? Because if I am and that is how you are using them, then that is a better configuration than fireknife. Because contrary to popular opinion, the missle pod is not any better at killing marines than an autocannon. In short, why pay 12 points for a 2+ wound and allowing them their 3+ save, which the point is to avoid, or paying the same 12 points for another 2+ to wound and NO armor save, which is the idea.

Personally, I like the plasma/fusion configuration for meq/teq killing. It's called Helios, in case you didn't know. Just be careful with this unit. because of the fusion blaster, you are going to have to opperate within 18" of your targets, and that's a pretty expensive unit to have to keep almost within assault range. The last thing you want is to lose 199 points in a hail of rapid-fired bolter shells after taking out only 5 marines because there was nothing to JSJ behind.

They are for MEQ TEQ killing, or for light desperation tank killing. Also not bad vs monstrous creatures.

Well, if the Helios are for anti-MEQ/TEQ, that's quite logical and I think everyone should stop telling you to switch to fireknives. But they're right about Shadowsun. Do you really want to spend 175 points on an HQ that gets instant deathed from an assault cannon? Your points would be better spent on a regular Shas'O with a similar anti-MEQ weapons loadout. The 'O would still give the units it's attached to a ld boost, and could have plasma/fusion, so as to get three shots inside of 12" instead of just two. The only other loss I can think of is the ability to hit two different targets, but what's the chance you'll ever need that if you have six railguns and are using the 'O for anti-MEQ anyway?
If you really and truly need Shadowsun's ld bubble that badly, which you don't since this is a good list, then by all means keep her. But as it stands, you'd be fine without it.

rogueeyes wrote:

Really does this argument need to take place again? Most tournaments will rule the same as the INAT FAQ - the target lock allows you to split fire. If you don't agree that's fine but the majority of people play this way.

So, can someone link this FAQ? I have never heard of this rule, and IMHO, being able to do this smells of a special character ability, which is how I have always thought of it.