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Hey all

It seemed that for weeks before the release of the SW codex about half the rumor threads were screaming about how 'broken' Jaws was. What have your experiences with it been like and has it lived up to its pre-codex hype?

The local SW player has used it in two games so far. The first he Perils and got killed the next turn, but last game (a multiplayer game) he bagged a canifex. However when fired at the 'Nids ally (IG) he failed pretty badly only killing 2 HW teams and about 3 guardsmen. From what i can see it is a strong power when used against multi wound models as it ista gibs them. Hmm any other stories?

Ive played a few games with it, and it is VERY underwhelming.

one game against orks it kept my dreadnought alive by sniping the powerclaw nob, but other abilities were far better, (living lightning immobilized a battlewagon, Murderous Hurricane dropped a 30 boy mob down to 10 or so when they tried to move in the following turn)

in every other game ive played its done a whole lot of nothing, killing a few troopers here, a bloodletter there, etc. where the ability is powerful it is also weak- what i mean is that it is good that it CAN single-shot kill HQ and big scarey MCs, but they tend to get a good chance for survival, and I tend to fail the psychic test with a perils of the warp. In the last game I played (apocalypse) our team had 3 different space wolf players with Rune Priests in termy armor with long fangs (all with living lightning and jaws), Kugath was moving in to crush them we got 6 good hits with jaws on him, and they all failed to kill him (then in combat all the rune priests whiffed, every single round.)

Ouch!

Though my dice and situations overall are superior to Demogerg's, I will second his call that Jaws is overestimated.

I've found it to be exceedingly awesome vs. Tyranids since now I don't need to sweat that Carnifex tromping towards my lines. But other then that? Eh, it's occasionally nice if you can snipe an upgrade character like a Sargent out of a squad, but I've found other powers to be more useful in more situations.

I thought as much.
I used to play a game [$tar Corp$] that one of the heave weapons that used a Yard Stick for a template and it was only effective in mass.

My problem with the Rune Priest is that he's so much better at psychic offense and defense than Tzeentch sorcerors.

Jaws, well, I think we said it would be good against Upgrade characters and Carnifexes. And look, it IS good against upgrade characters and carnifexes. You guys crapping out on psychic tests is bad luck, nothing to do with Jaws really- as well to say all Psychic Powers are underpowered, as they all need a psychic test.
But to my mind, the other powers that the Rune Priest gets are brilliant as well, and he has the best psychic defense in the game. That's my problem.

So far I'm finding that Jaws is not as good as Tempests Wraith and Murderous Hurricane. I was able to really shut down the Tau with Wraith. After Shadowsun lost two of her drones to dangerous terrain tests, the Tau player stopped jumping her suits so often. The lack of maneuverability really hindered her.

Da Boss wrote:You guys crapping out on psychic tests is bad luck, nothing to do with Jaws really- as well to say all Psychic Powers are underpowered, as they all need a psychic test.

I never had problems with psychic tests, for me Jaw's "problem" is the initiative test for a save. Most models have a very good chance, even if successfully hit with Jaws, to avoid it altogether. That's why I find I am preferring the other powers.

Tzeentch Sorcerers have a laundry list of problems, though I will concede sub-optimal psychic powers is probably on that list.

Demogerg wrote:
one game against orks it kept my dreadnought alive by sniping the powerclaw nob, but other abilities were far better, (living lightning immobilized a battlewagon, Murderous Hurricane dropped a 30 boy mob down to 10 or so when they tried to move in the following turn)

Not to turn this into a rules discussion, I'm not 100% sure that this is legal. Even though everybody seems resigned to their squad gunners being omnomnommed on turn 1. JotWW is a shooting attack, and entry regarding targeting says

"Models that are touched by this line must blah blah blah initiative instant death that isn't instant death"

Compare this to what the main rules say about targeting with template weapons

"Models fully or partially under the template are hit"

But nobody tries to claim you can "snipe" a plasmagunner with a flamethrower, so why the double standard? I would expect this power to be erattad to something like "any unit with a model touched by this line must take an initiative test for each model under the line" or just changed to be D6 hits like a grav cannon.

I hate this ability so much. Yay my Death guard are I3 WOOT! The guy I play just iced all my meltas and plasma then MY SLANEESH FLYING DP DIED. The game was over when that happened. The power is stupid I had 3 wounds left and he was just like Bam your dead oops did I do that.

CajunMan550 wrote:I hate this ability so much. Yay my Death guard are I3 WOOT! The guy I play just iced all my meltas and plasma then MY SLANEESH FLYING DP DIED. The game was over when that happened. The power is stupid I had 3 wounds left and he was just like Bam your dead oops did I do that.

I don't play SW but we all have enemy powers that we hate. I despise the Lash but learned to work around it with vehicles, which would also keep models safe from this power as well (from my understanding). My point is there has always been a lot to insta-kill my HQ and there is usually a way it can be defended against. I do agree that some other psykers in the game need a shot in the arm but with the way armies are developing it will happen sooner or later (and expect just as much outrage when your army gets a boost too). Plus, in my opinion CSM need a total rework as it is...my army has been shelved since that codex was released. It doesn't matter to me that you can make a powerful list or how they play, it lost the feel that I loved.

CajunMan550 wrote:Ohz noz! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list iz not workingz! And I haz no idea how toz actually adapt! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list haz been the unbeatablez! Itz not fairz!

I don't have a personal issue with Lash/PM, I just hate when someone whines about losing with ONE OF THE MOST ADAPTABLE LISTS IN THE GAME!

grankobot wrote:Not to turn this into a rules discussion, I'm not 100% sure that this is legal. Even though everybody seems resigned to their squad gunners being omnomnommed on turn 1. JotWW is a shooting attack, and entry regarding targeting says

"Models that are touched by this line must blah blah blah initiative instant death that isn't instant death"

Compare this to what the main rules say about targeting with template weapons

"Models fully or partially under the template are hit"

But nobody tries to claim you can "snipe" a plasmagunner with a flamethrower, so why the double standard? I would expect this power to be erattad to something like "any unit with a model touched by this line must take an initiative test for each model under the line" or just changed to be D6 hits like a grav cannon.

There is no targeting required, and the power specifies models. There is no mechanism that would allow you to change who is taking the hit, so you can effectively "snipe" models simply by putting the line through them.

edit: Please note this is NOT a template attack and thus the rules for template attacks are irrelevant.

I have not yet had a chance to play against it, but definitely its power level is defined by the enemy. Some will be more vulnerable to this type of attack.

Dracos is right. Any model touched by the line and failed to pass is removed.

I haven't played against it yet and the only SW player I know I don't think he'll be using it. So I really don't know what to think other than it just seems pretty eh.

My point was that it's a shooting attack that uses the number of models it touches to determine the number of hits - just like a template weapon. You can allocate hits for flamers, why not Jaws?

Ambiguity. It's all over this book.

Either way, it's not a great power and I'll be happy to see it over living lightning or murderous hurricane most of the time.

If you use the most open, loosest interpretation of the rules to allow Jaws to snipe and hit close combat, then it's great against some armies and worthless against others.

If you use the narrowest, most exclusive interpretation it's decent against one or two armies and completely worthless against others.

Murderous Hurricane is going to get far more use in my lists than Jaws.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:Ohz noz! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list iz not workingz! And I haz no idea how toz actually adapt! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list haz been the unbeatablez! Itz not fairz!

I don't have a personal issue with Lash/PM, I just hate when someone whines about losing with ONE OF THE MOST ADAPTABLE LISTS IN THE GAME!

Your cool bro I only had one prince because I had no regular DP model only a Slaneesh Greater Daemon. The whole army was nurgle besides that. I would be EVEN MORE pissed if my nurgle DP who is a beast in every way shape and form to die in one hit. I got no problem with getting beat I am not by any meanz a top player but the ability to just insta kill anything you want from that distance is stupid. Specially for the cost and on top of that I can't use any of my own powers cuz he has a 3+ go yourself. You know the ability that makes any DP sides Khorne worth it. I don't mind adapting but to what? lords? so they can get sniped to? All Mech? so Vulkan armies can eat my yay oh fun

grankobot wrote:My point was that it's a shooting attack that uses the number of models it touches to determine the number of hits - just like a template weapon. You can allocate hits for flamers, why not Jaws?

You can not allocate wounds from Jaws. It states pretty clearly that any model touched by the line, and fails their test, is removed. Not really ambiguous.

Refer back to my first post.

"Models fully or partially under the template are hit"

This is what the book has to say regarding template weapons. Jaws works like a template weapon for the purposes of targeting, except the template is 24" long and has no width. It doesn't explicitly state that you may allocate the wounds to models towards the back of the unit instead, for example, as it does for removing models in CC because it doesn't have to. It's a shooting attack and it follows the rules for shooting attacks, things just get mucked up because instead of rolling to wound you take an initiative test.

Play it however your group is cool with, but look forward to the callidus assassin and psyker battle squad combination taking out your wolf guard/lord/priest/whatevers.

Edited to add another example. The monolith's particle whip says this:

"Note that any model under the hole of the ordnance template is hit with an AP 1 attack."

Does that mean that if you scatter over a specific model out of a unit of 20 that you roll to wound that model separately and remove only that model if the wound goes through? Of course you don't, because that's bull and everybody knows it. You can take that AP1 hit from anywhere in the unit as per normal wound allocation. I don't see any reason why Jaws should be different.

Models and Units are both defined in the rulebook.

Wound Allocation that allows you to remove any model within a unit happens as part of, well wound allocation (pg 24 rulebook). You allocate wounds, not hits. Jaws hits and then removes the models that were hit.

Though I will concede one might be able to argue it - it really seems fairly clear that since no one is taking a wound you cannot allocate within a unit for Jaws.

Thor665 is correct. You aren't doing any wounding, how are you allocating wounds?

No matter what side of the debate you're on you can't disagree that this is a goofy power with goofy wording. Another example:

You can only assault at what you shoot at if you've fired in the shooting phase. How does Jaws factor in to that? It doesn't say you declare a target, so do you shoot at nothing? If you've shot at nothing can you then not assault anything? Are you counted as having shot at one of the units you've hit, or can you just fire it off where you want then do a 180 and charge something else?

I'm sorry if I got off base, but what I'm getting at is that the whole thing is a poorly written mess and it feels like GW is giving us a beta to playtest instead of doing it themselves.

Jaws is very effective against Tyranid monsterous creatures with their Init 1 even though they get a +1 for being a monsterous creature. Jaws is fairly effective against Plague Marines and Orks because their init is low as well.

grankobot wrote:You can only assault at what you shoot at if you've fired in the shooting phase. How does Jaws factor in to that? It doesn't say you declare a target, so do you shoot at nothing? If you've shot at nothing can you then not assault anything? Are you counted as having shot at one of the units you've hit, or can you just fire it off where you want then do a 180 and charge something else?

You're correct but are over-complicating, which leads to your confusion. You are correct, if you fire in the shooting phase you have to charge the unit you targeted. You are also correct that Jaws doesn't say you declare a target.

Therein is the solution - Jaws doesn't have a target, therefore you are not limited to the target you fired at, therefore you can assault whatever target you choose to and is available to you in the assault phase.

what I'm getting at is that the whole thing is a poorly written mess and it feels like GW is giving us a beta to playtest instead of doing it themselves.

I will certainly agree with that. GW is terrible when it comes to writing their rules and this codex is just the natural continuation of that general failure.

Jaws isn't that gamebreaking.

What it does is shift the balance a little bit against certain armies.

These armies are - Flying Mech (Eldar, Tau) as well as MC Heavy (Nids, Chaos Daemons). They however do have vunerabilities to Mech and certain versions of horde. Just changes the metagame etc.

As a chaos player I don't have a problem with Jaws. There's not a lot in the army that is vulnerable to it.

I have a problem with runic armor. It makes the wolf priests better at stop psychic powers than anyone else. Librarians only wish they could stop powers on a 4+. And chaos sorcerors don't get *anything* to stop psychic powers.

If used in the right army and in the hand of the right general, it can be devastating.
I'd recommend to consider Angron's army with 4 RP's,
distributed to 3 drop podded WG Termie squads.
All this Pods can arrive in turn one and take on (out) serious threats.

Thor665 wrote:

Da Boss wrote:You guys crapping out on psychic tests is bad luck, nothing to do with Jaws really- as well to say all Psychic Powers are underpowered, as they all need a psychic test.

I never had problems with psychic tests, for me Jaw's "problem" is the initiative test for a save. Most models have a very good chance, even if successfully hit with Jaws, to avoid it altogether. That's why I find I am preferring the other powers.

Yeah, I was playing Necrons and took out...a scarab swarm (them and wriaths are infantry per the Necron Faq) and a few warriors. His TS had a 50% chance and ended up getting taken out by LF with a few crack missles after JOWW failed. His Deciever had a 83% of passing...so yeah no suprise that JOWW failed there either. The majority of his army besides was destroyers (we played them as "count as jetbikes"). Definately not over powered IMO.

The one time I used it, it turned the game in my favor.

It was the bottom of the forth, and the nids were running through me w/ a Flyrant, and 6 fexes, ansome genestealers.

My Rune priest finally succeeded his 2+ reserve roll to DS in at a Nice point, and there were 4 Fexes left.

When I did the power, It hit four of them , he was running them all up in a line, he did not expect me to get so close.

He ended up rolling three 4s and a 3 so three of his 5 wound 7 toughness regenerating carnifexes were taken by the world wolf.
Unfortunately, the one that didn't die was about an inch and a half away from me, so the priest got taken out by the end, but I had definitely won that game it was nice.

As far as balance issues, I think it was a fluke, I got lucky to hit so many, and Very lucky that he failed so many.

CajunMan550 wrote:I hate this ability so much. Yay my Death guard are I3 WOOT! The guy I play just iced all my meltas and plasma then MY SLANEESH FLYING DP DIED. The game was over when that happened. The power is stupid I had 3 wounds left and he was just like Bam your dead oops did I do that.

Doesn't wings change the unit type to jump infantry?

In which case you're immune to jaws.


I haven't had a chance to run it yet. Frankly its a tough choice between living lightning, murderous hurricane, jaws and tempests wrath (and even storm caller if I want to bust out my foot slogging 13th co list). Lightning is an awesome vehicle killer (something wolves need) murderous hurricane is unbelievably nasty for orks and pretty good against everyone and tempests wrath just shuts down mech eldar or mech tau utterly. I'm thinking that if I have to take my RP to a tourney he's going to be rocking living lightning and murderous hurricane.

Jaws is really only excellent against nids and ork bikers because it shuts down your enemies strategy utterly.

1) Others have mentioned that wings allows the DP to move "like" jump infantry, not become jump infantry. A subtle but significant difference.

2) The rule for JotWW is inclusive not exclusive. Everything that it includes is affected which is Infantry, Bikes, Calvary, and MC. Since Deamon Princes with Wings are still MC, they are still affected.