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It is a simple power...

1. draw a Hair thin line... (IE: turn the measuring tape sideways)

2. Check to see if the models under the line... ask the following question... Is it an Infantry Model? Is it a Monstrous Creature? Is it Bikermodel or a Jetbike (Not Sure)? If so roll an initiative test...

3. If the model failed the test pick it up, and place it on a plate off the battlefield because it has been removed from platy...

From what I've seen jaws isn't that great. And if your facing eldar your runepriest isn't gonna do s**t if a damn farseers on the board... I HATE that warding rune thingger they have ><

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:Ohz noz! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list iz not workingz! And I haz no idea how toz actually adapt! Mah LASH/PM COPYPASTE list haz been the unbeatablez! Itz not fairz!

I don't have a personal issue with Lash/PM, I just hate when someone whines about losing with ONE OF THE MOST ADAPTABLE LISTS IN THE GAME!

You're just as bad as them for moaning like a little girl.

It's a fluke power. When it works it can be quite powerful, but it's unreliable.

Like most powers, it's situational. If you're dealing with majority I 2 armies Like Tau or Orks, then it can have a high payoff. If you're dealing with initiatives higher than that, it loses power (although a roll of 6 is always a failure, so there is always at least a 1 in 6 chance for it to work).

IMO it is definitely not even close to the "ZOMGOMZ T3H GAEM IS BROKEN!!!!!!!" type of thing that so many people seemed to be freaking out about when it was first revealed.

I think Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane are going to see more play (especially LL).

I think it's overrated but it could definitely be a trump card in certain cases. I don't think you can use it snipe models locked in close combat though since it's a shooting attack. As previously stated it's situational.

G

QuietOrkmi wrote:It is a simple power...

1. draw a Hair thin line... (IE: turn the measuring tape sideways)

2. Check to see if the models under the line... ask the following question... Is it an Infantry Model? Is it a Monstrous Creature? Is it Bikermodel or a Jetbike (Not Sure)? If so roll an initiative test...

3. If the model failed the test pick it up, and place it on a plate off the battlefield because it has been removed from platy...

I agree

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think you can use it snipe models locked in close combat though since it's a shooting attack. As previously stated it's situational.

G

You can, and up at SnBz in new port richey its allowed.

Models in cc can still be hit by shooting attacks - they just can't be targeted. If a blast template scatters over cc, they take the hits just like normal, the blast doesn't just go away. Since JotWW doesn't have a target, it's legal.

I'm of the school though that since it's a psychic shooting attack, you can remove any model in the unit.

I hope GW clears up some of the issues in the FAQ. I haven't tried it yet, but I was originally thinking that:
1) couldn't snipe models in a unit
2) couldn't use it against models in assault

I can see the arguments that both are allowable (although I think the first is more likely than the second to be allowed). If either is allowable, the power goes from extermely situational to somewhat useful, imho.

Does anyone else think that GW really dropped the ball on the SW codex? It feels like there are more vague rules in this dex than other recent ones.

Caffran9 wrote:IMO it is definitely not even close to the "ZOMGOMZ T3H GAEM IS BROKEN!!!!!!!" type of thing that so many people seemed to be freaking out about when it was first revealed.

I think Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane are going to see more play (especially LL).

It is a 'game breaking' power, in that it completely devastates some armies, all by itself. I hope you're right, that Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane get more play, because that might mean that my nurgle daemons are still worth bringing to an all-comer's tournament.

Living Lightning is a good power. Ok, the RP gets to take some long-range autocannon shots. He has to hit&wound like normal, and it's an autocannon. It's good, it's worth taking, it's never going to be wasted, but it's fair. Murderous Hurricane isn't too bad - one unit suffers a little for one turn.

Tempest's Wrath (how dare you play skimmers near me) and Jaws (oh, your army has low I, sucks to be you) are poorly conceived and implemented. They have the potential to be absolutely useless, but are extremely unfair to one or two armies.

Gridge wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:I hate this ability so much. Yay my Death guard are I3 WOOT! The guy I play just iced all my meltas and plasma then MY SLANEESH FLYING DP DIED. The game was over when that happened. The power is stupid I had 3 wounds left and he was just like Bam your dead oops did I do that.

I don't play SW but we all have enemy powers that we hate. I despise the Lash but learned to work around it with vehicles, which would also keep models safe from this power as well (from my understanding). My point is there has always been a lot to insta-kill my HQ and there is usually a way it can be defended against. I do agree that some other psykers in the game need a shot in the arm but with the way armies are developing it will happen sooner or later (and expect just as much outrage when your army gets a boost too). Plus, in my opinion CSM need a total rework as it is...my army has been shelved since that codex was released. It doesn't matter to me that you can make a powerful list or how they play, it lost the feel that I loved.

So how does a Carnifex or a Great Unclean One defend against it? Jaws isn't really broken it is just broken against certain armies. We had best hope the new nid codex takes this into account. The low initiative armies get screwed while initiative armies can pretty much ignore it. I don't really get the rational behind this kind of power.

Fexes and MC get a bonus against it of 1 due to their large size and str.. strange when debating the power this is never brought up. It can be a difference for the big uglies. As far as using joww, watch pod casts and listen to some of the players. It has been a flop for many and cost them the game because they got some squishy rp close enough to get them into cc. The other abilities are much nicer. LL will be the staple power over jaws in the future. The the powers that make diff terrain, cover etc will be the 2nd powers for most serious players.

Um, it is brought up? Even with the +1, expensive Low I MCs are still really screwed.

If they FAQ the sniping effect (and firing into combat) away, I'll be ok with it as overly-powerful, but situational.

Jack

I don't think it sould affect models with any flying capability not only for my lords and DPs but Nids and there Hive tyrants are also not jump Infantry they have wings. That just doesn't make sense to me if a model can fly what difference does it make how they do it?

Da Boss wrote:Um, it is brought up? Even with the +1, expensive Low I MCs are still really screwed.

So we are talking about dakka, boom, and ninja fexes (the elite fexes that don't have points to spend on a 6 pt Init upgrade) that we don't know will even be available in the new 2010 codex, Great Unclean One, and Tomb Spiders...pretty situational.

Jackmojo wrote:If they FAQ the sniping effect (and firing into combat) away, I'll be Mehh.

Jack

Fixed your post . Its situational as is.

JotWW may be situational, but it's still extremely powerful no matter how you want to argue it. I feel the stringent protests from SW players that it's a flop is a cover to try and keep it from getting nerfed. Even if a 'fex tales the +1 I upgrade and gets the -1 to the roll, they still fail on anything over a 3. Which statistically is the same as having a 4+ save. So, you have a psychic power that, to put in shooting terms, has a 100% chance to hit, and a 100% chance to cause a 'wound', that a 5 wound, toughness 7, 2+ save 'fex has a 50% chance of completely dieing too.

Add to that, there is *no way* for the 'fex to get protection from this attack. The range is too far for it's assault to be a threat, it ignores cover, it even ignores getting into close combat with another unit.

While the power is situational, the forces it is extremely potent against are powerful, expensive, multi-wound models. Monstrous Creatures, Nob Bikers, Broadside Battle suits, the latter two of which you'll almost always hit at least two with, and have a 66.7% chance of pulling them off the table.

Further, armies with init. 4 have statistically the same as a 3+ save, which means against marines it has the same chance of working as a normal wound... except you can specifically target models like the chaplain or powerfist sergeant to force them to make the save.

Kroot Loops wrote:JotWW may be situational, but it's still extremely powerful no matter how you want to argue it. I feel the stringent protests from SW players that it's a flop is a cover to try and keep it from getting nerfed.

SW players are not saying the power is useless. SW players are saying that it isn't broken because we HAVE been playing with for several weeks and it seldom gets the OMG I just killed your 250 pt MC with JOTWW. Simply put, your theory hammer isn't living up to real world application.

Even if a 'fex tales the +1 I upgrade and gets the -1 to the roll, they still fail on anything over a 3. Which statistically is the same as having a 4+ save. So, you have a psychic power that, to put in shooting terms, has a 100% chance to hit, and a 100% chance to cause a 'wound', that a 5 wound, toughness 7, 2+ save 'fex has a 50% chance of completely dieing too.

With the upgrade Fexes have an INIT of 3 and with the -1 Bonus to their die roll, we are talking about them only failing on a roll of a 5 or 6 or only a 1/3 chance of failing. The vast majority of MC in 40K will only be failing on a 6. Great odds if you ask me.

Add to that, there is *no way* for the 'fex to get protection from this attack. The range is too far for it's assault to be a threat, it ignores cover, it even ignores getting into close combat with another unit.

This is what makes the power threatening; without these abilities it would suck.

While the power is situational, the forces it is extremely potent against are powerful, expensive, multi-wound models. Monstrous Creatures, Nob Bikers, Broadside Battle suits, the latter two of which you'll almost always hit at least two with, and have a 66.7% chance of pulling them off the table.

Who plays with Broadsides . Otherwise, yes, it helps SW counter traditional spam lists which are the hallmark of power gamers; I fail to see the problem here.

Further, armies with init. 4 have statistically the same as a 3+ save, which means against marines it has the same chance of working as a normal wound... except you can specifically target models like the chaplain or powerfist sergeant to force them to make the save.

And they have an excellent 2/3 chance to make the save...and aren't chappies Init 5?

Any power that breaks a core rule needs to be very well thought out. Jaws breaks the rule that "more wounds make a model more durable," in an environment where the only really similar items are 40pt force weapons in the Hunter's codices.

Good game design does not create casino moments, which the power is. A good player can't eliminate or reduce the odds of Jaws succeeding, he can only sit there and take it.

I'm curious about if there's a situation in a close combat where the only line you could make to the enemy model in cc was going through friendly models as well.

Are friendly models immune to this ability and are you allowed to place the line with friendly units in the way?

With most attacks, including blasts and templates, you're not allowed to target in such a fashion that would result in your friendly units being hit.

Best psychic defense in the game - daemonhunters inquisitor with pyschic hood and null rod (he and his retinue are never affected by psychic abilties that hit them.)

Many players (especially guard players) take inquisitor with mystics to fend off deep strike...perhaps they'll take psychic hoods and null rods as well?

Guard players don't care. They're 90% mech to begin with and any able IG commander can place a gunline so that, except with absolutely crazy technical complexity, any line of doom is going to kill roughly 3 6-8 point models that save 50% of the time.

Nothing about the rule states that your own models are immune, however, so if you take some risks and draw over your own dudes then you're probably going to wipe out some of your own figs. Not a huge issue, but something that could matter.

Kroot Loops wrote:JotWW may be situational, but it's still extremely powerful no matter how you want to argue it. I feel the stringent protests from SW players that it's a flop is a cover to try and keep it from getting nerfed. Even if a 'fex tales the +1 I upgrade and gets the -1 to the roll, they still fail on anything over a 3. Which statistically is the same as having a 4+ save. So, you have a psychic power that, to put in shooting terms, has a 100% chance to hit, and a 100% chance to cause a 'wound', that a 5 wound, toughness 7, 2+ save 'fex has a 50% chance of completely dieing too.

Add to that, there is *no way* for the 'fex to get protection from this attack. The range is too far for it's assault to be a threat, it ignores cover, it even ignores getting into close combat with another unit.

While the power is situational, the forces it is extremely potent against are powerful, expensive, multi-wound models. Monstrous Creatures, Nob Bikers, Broadside Battle suits, the latter two of which you'll almost always hit at least two with, and have a 66.7% chance of pulling them off the table.

Further, armies with init. 4 have statistically the same as a 3+ save, which means against marines it has the same chance of working as a normal wound... except you can specifically target models like the chaplain or powerfist sergeant to force them to make the save.

Do you really believe that all sw players really care that much about it? Really They could take it out of the codex now and I wouldn't shed a tear. The only good thing its for is scaring yall so you leaving my other stuff alone. Ok so maybe a fex is exposed, but are they your first guys into combat? Uh not likely seeing as gaunts and rippers have huge assault ranges and genestealers or lictors can pop out of almost anywhere. The debate for many isn't if the sw are op it's are you scared of Jaws. Have any of the nay sayers actually looked at the battle reports that sw are in? They haven't done crap with Jaws or on the forums. The sw players aren't talking about it alt all, they're talking beastly wl builds, different fast attack or different transports. Only the sw haters are discussing this at all.

With my most effective forces being jump infantry and skimmers, you can bet I 'fear' Tempest a lot more than I do Jaws. There are a few people at my FLGS have jumped from the SM to the SW bandwagon big time (and will probably jump to the 'nids come January), so I've seen it in play often enough. That doesn't change that it's a poorly designed power. I've never seen the old SW Codex, is there a fluff reason they are such powerful psykers? I always thought Eldar and Thousand Sons were suppose to be the psykers of this caliber.

Maybe it's just SM burn out in general. Why does a 100 point Librarian Null zone/void/whatever have a 24" radius (that you can leave sitting in a LR), while the much more point heavy demon that can let them re-roll failed saves have a 6" radius?

Irregardless, you won't see Jaws change my tactics, largely because Tau tactics can't change too much, focus fire down the closest/fastest threats.

Regarding Null Zone versus Fateweaver, a situational ability that forces opponents to reroll a certain type of save is far less powerful than an innate passive that allows all units to reroll all saves. On his own the Librarian has gakky H2H and gakky shooting; Fateweaver is a modestly effective close combatant with a 3+ invuln save and the ability to sling murderous shooting attacks around while flying.

Kroot Loops wrote:With my most effective forces being jump infantry and skimmers, you can bet I 'fear' Tempest a lot more than I do Jaws. There are a few people at my FLGS have jumped from the SM to the SW bandwagon big time (and will probably jump to the 'nids come January), so I've seen it in play often enough. That doesn't change that it's a poorly designed power. I've never seen the old SW Codex, is there a fluff reason they are such powerful psykers? I always thought Eldar and Thousand Sons were suppose to be the psykers of this caliber.

Maybe it's just SM burn out in general. Why does a 100 point Librarian Null zone/void/whatever have a 24" radius (that you can leave sitting in a LR), while the much more point heavy demon that can let them re-roll failed saves have a 6" radius?

Irregardless, you won't see Jaws change my tactics, largely because Tau tactics can't change too much, focus fire down the closest/fastest threats.

Well fluff wise the sw have some of the strongest psykers in the Imperium. In the sw books they have psykers who stop storms with a wave, strike down dragons etc with one blast. Then you have the stormcaller who summoned such a storm that it destroyed a whole army. Though even with the eldar I don't really think they are any less powerful. They have a different style. Fortune, guide, mind war, etc are pretty amazing. They reflect the more the style of the eldar where as the sw reflect nature druid like psykers. Though outside of Ahriman I think the 1k sons were slighted. I say the farseer is equal to the rune priest. Eldrad is still better than any other psyker in my opinion for what he can do and his pt cost.

sourclams wrote:Regarding Null Zone versus Fateweaver, a situational ability that forces opponents to reroll a certain type of save is far less powerful than an innate passive that allows all units to reroll all saves. On his own the Librarian has gakky H2H and gakky shooting; Fateweaver is a modestly effective close combatant with a 3+ invuln save and the ability to sling murderous shooting attacks around while flying.

Eh, situational, but devastating. One guy at the FLGS runs a daemon army, and the SM player (who now plays SW) never used a Librarian unless he was fighting him. It makes a competent player and army (without Fateweaver) look like scrubs, being tabled by round 4.

Doesn't Fateweaver also have some rule that every time he takes a wound there is a chance it'll just leave the battle?

Was this Codex fluff or black library novels?

I am guessing Codex Fluff, which tends to change each edition.

This is because the Ragnar Series really doesn't mention RP except in the last book where Ragnar meets up with the 13th Company's Rune Priest, all of the 13th company were around in the days of Russ.

That psycher was powerfull, being the only Loyalist SM capable of teleporting, having stollen its secrets from the Thousand Sons. If we only looked at the Black Library Cannon, vanilla SM psychers shouldn't be able to teleport, just rune priests from the 13th company. The 13th company RP had also developed ways to cloak thier presense from even the most powerfull of divination magic.

Kroot Loops wrote:

sourclams wrote:Regarding Null Zone versus Fateweaver, a situational ability that forces opponents to reroll a certain type of save is far less powerful than an innate passive that allows all units to reroll all saves. On his own the Librarian has gakky H2H and gakky shooting; Fateweaver is a modestly effective close combatant with a 3+ invuln save and the ability to sling murderous shooting attacks around while flying.

Eh, situational, but devastating. One guy at the FLGS runs a daemon army, and the SM player (who now plays SW) never used a Librarian unless he was fighting him. It makes a competent player and army (without Fateweaver) look like scrubs, being tabled by round 4.

Doesn't Fateweaver also have some rule that every time he takes a wound there is a chance it'll just leave the battle?

Was this Codex fluff or black library novels?

Yes fateweaver has a chance to bail on ya. I have the daemon codex right in front of me.