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Is the plasma weapons worth the risk of losing, for example, Straken to a ? Both my lord commissar and, naturally, Straken have Plasma Pistols, and I must admit to a degree of trepidation in using them, as the chance of losing them to a single dice is so big. (EDIT: okay. so after checking the codex, I notice that straken wouldn't suffer instant death from a plasma weapon, but he'd still take a wound.)

So to reiterate. Are plasma weapons really worth the points, and the stupidly high risk of suicide? (Shooting the plasma pistol, each round, in a 7 round game, would make it a statistical certainty that the shooter is killed by his own dang weapon.)

Ahh mathhammer would tell you that but it can go either way. They're not good against anything but MEQs and very light vehicles.

No one suffers Instant Death from 'Gets Hot!', as the wound suffered does not have an associated Strength value. In addition, you can take any armour saves, and even Feel no Pain, if it's available.

Thus, it is statistically probable that you will suffer a single, savable wound from the weapon, assuming you manage to fire it 4 or more times (doubtful).

you can take saves against the overheat... so straken would get a 3+ armor save after he rolled a 1. so its rather unlikely a 3+ armor save model will die from overheating unless you have a plasma gun on full rapid for several turns.

That said, I've lost marines to it, so I normally don't put them on my sergeants (unless its for like an apoc game or something else for fun only)

Our situations are obviously different, but giving PP to assault marines is a must in my books.

Taking out their last synapse creature with a kamikazi PP/PW assault squad is a great payoff in my books. However, I'm sacrificing single marines, and I'd be alot more wary if my HQ was at risk.

Right, looks like I overlooked the parentheses in the rule explanation, saying normal saves apply. Still quite risky though. I guess I'll stick to using strakens 12 gauge until I find myself in dire straits.

Also, I suppose the Lord Commissar will get a weapon transplant.

Don't use plasma pistols use plasma guns and have a whole army of them as they are SM killers

Saltoric wrote:Don't use plasma pistols use plasma guns and have a whole army of them as they are SM killers

Next thread: "Why can't i beat horde armies"

My friends IG squads with plasma have become infamous for blowing them up... he hasn't tried giving them Grenadiers for the extra armour though. I think (just maybe?) it might work better, but he loves the fluff of catachans and guys in singlets don't really seem to have carapace armour...

I play CSM, so plague marines and oblits 2+, or 3+/4+

Love the plasma. It is a 1/6 chance to get wounded but the damage it can do to anything, and the armour save you can take makes up for any possible danger. That said though I am notoriously bad at sacrificing pieces in chess and I play a Khorne DW Chaos Lord who has a 30% chance of wounding himself with only invulnerable saves allowed so I don't know

That said though plasma is still awesome even if it can be very dodgy. Think of the damage that Commissar Lord could do killing 6 Termies with his pistol before he statistically dies. 85 point lord < 6 x 40 point termies.

Per shot chance of wounding yourself with a "gets hot" weapon with a:

3+ save = 5%
4+ save = 8%
5+ save = 11%

Having feel no pain (i.e. a medic in the unit for Straken) cuts the percentage in half. Giving the unit the twinlinking order cuts the percentage to negligible.

So I wouldn't call it a "stupidly high" risk.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Per shot chance of wounding yourself with a "gets hot" weapon with a:

3+ save = 5%
4+ save = 8%
5+ save = 11%

Having feel no pain (i.e. a medic in the unit for Straken) cuts the percentage in half. Giving the unit the twinlinking order cuts the percentage to negligible.

So I wouldn't call it a "stupidly high" risk.

Flavius has it right.

I quite enjoy running 4 PG and a PP in my mounted CCS. Run that baby up within 12" and you've got 9 plasma shots into whatever big, nasty 2+/3+ armour save unit you want. Sure they'll die quite a bit over the course of the game but even firing two shots per model shouldn't result in more than 2 or 3 rolls in a single shooting phase. Even then, with carapace you've got a 50/50 shot of staying alive.

You can only twin-link against the big stuff, but S7 is nasty enough to do some damage, especially with 9 shots. Personally I love the unit, the only downside being it's a bit pricey for 5 guys and a chimera. I just wish you could play 'hot potato' with the overheating plasma guns and toss it to a Bodyguard to deal with

Oh and I think the worry with Gets Hot! comes from the fluff. So many books have the tongue-in-cheek method of describing a 50% or 60% (or higher...) failure rate for plasma weapons, yet ironically I can't think of a single instance of someone's plasma gun overheating and killing them. Go figure.

DoW

In CSM codex a Kharn story has his pistol overheat.










... of course he doesn't die from it, hes in power armour *rolls eyes*

I'd be tempted to have 4 plasma bikers in command squad with Apothecary and a captain with plasma pistol or hellfire rounds in the bike.

Race up 12, unload within 12 inches of a unit, and then assault.

Plasma Pistols are like Jet Li. Small fist, big punch.

I take em for everything usually. I'd rather have a chance of killing myself than no chance at all of wounding a Tyranid MC. Once, I even capped a Devilfish (in 4th ed no less) with a PP shot.

Oh, and they can insta-kill most Eldar and Guard HQ's (T3).

My favorite trick lately is the Plasma Wagon:
Tactical x 10, Plasma Cannon, Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol, Rhino + EA -250 pts

Leave the guys in the Rhino, and you can:
Sit still and fire the PlasmaCannon and Plasmagun if in range
Move 6" and fire the Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol both out to 12" (my usual tactic, and the real reason for the PP)
Move 12", Disembark, and fire PP, PG, 7 bolters and a bolt pistol.

I just wish I could upgrade my Rhino pintle-mounts to PGs or TL-PGs.

GeneralRetreat wrote:I just wish I could upgrade my Rhino pintle-mounts to PGs or TL-PGs.

Lascannon Twin Plasma Razorback and use another squads rhino.

It depends on the army.

Guard have the numbers and don't mind the deaths.
Space Marines don't have other options besides combi and PP on tactical to up the number of special wepaons.

In the case for Chaos Space marines, I'd say don't bother.

The PP should not even be an option on the CSM/Plague Marine units.
You could get the melta which is superior in almost all situations.

Generally Chaos is only the lower side of the model count, so losing guys is a bit more painful thatn usual.

As a Marines player, I really don't like plasma weapons.


First of all, it's one or two shots. The more shots you take, the more likely you are to kill yourself with the damn thing. For half the price (HALF), you can get a meltagun which will only give you one shot at 12" but A) you can't kill yourself with it, B) you get a MUCH better antitank capability, and C) if you run a Vulkan army, that beotch is twin linked. Especially since most things get coversaves these days, I'd rather have the meltagun that gives me antitank capability than a plasma weapon.



The only case in which I'd consider it is only a Razorback, and since I don't really like Razorbacks, there's no utility in plasma weapons for me. Maybe a plasma cannon on a dread, but the template is pretty small and people spread out their stuff if they know it's coming.




The only time I've seen plasma weapons really cause chaos is on the Guard tank that can put out a whole bunch of little templates per turn. 5 I think?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:As a Marines player, I really don't like plasma weapons.


First of all, it's one or two shots. The more shots you take, the more likely you are to kill yourself with the damn thing. For half the price (HALF), you can get a meltagun which will only give you one shot at 12" but A) you can't kill yourself with it, B) you get a MUCH better antitank capability, and C) if you run a Vulkan army, that beotch is twin linked. Especially since most things get coversaves these days, I'd rather have the meltagun that gives me antitank capability than a plasma weapon.

The only case in which I'd consider it is only a Razorback, and since I don't really like Razorbacks, there's no utility in plasma weapons for me. Maybe a plasma cannon on a dread, but the template is pretty small and people spread out their stuff if they know it's coming.

The only time I've seen plasma weapons really cause chaos is on the Guard tank that can put out a whole bunch of little templates per turn. 5 I think?

QFT.
And I also prefer to preserve the option to engage the enemy after firing, especially as a Space Wolf.
The only two units I would ever consider using Plasma weapons are the good ol' dread or plaque marines (with their FNP against ruined saves).
Always when one of my dudes uses plasma he's going to burn himself to death for sure! Dang you, Fortuna!

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
QFT.
And I also prefer to preserve the option to engage the enemy after firing, especially as a Space Wolf.
The only two units I would ever consider using Plasma weapons are the good ol' dread or plaque marines (with their FNP against ruined saves).
Always when one of my dudes uses plasma he's going to burn himself to death for sure! Dang you, Fortuna!

That's a good point. The option to assault is huge. Even with Tactical Marines, I'd rather get my one melta shot from SW guy, flamer shot from Sarge (combi-flamer), bolt pistol shots, and then assault. The extra bolt gun shots and plasma shot don't do it for me.

I give my Sgts PF and Combi-weapons (usually combi-flamers), and that puts me at a loss if I don't end up charging, as it's the only way to get a bonus attack with that hidden Power Fist.

First of all, it's one or two shots. The more shots you take, the more likely you are to kill yourself with the damn thing. For half the price (HALF), you can get a meltagun which will only give you one shot at 12" but A) you can't kill yourself with it, B) you get a MUCH better antitank capability, and C) if you run a Vulkan army, that beotch is twin linked. Especially since most things get coversaves these days, I'd rather have the meltagun that gives me antitank capability than a plasma weapon.

Of course, the plasma gun also is probably the best shooting support weapon for ranged squads in the Marine arsenal. It can kill one TEQ at 13"-24" and two TEQs at 12" or less. It can move and still get two shots, giving you the ability to manuever around cover to deny saves and still kill more heavy infantry than a melta. It is undeniably weaker against heavy armor, but almost equally effective in close range against AV 10 and AV 11 transports because of the extra shot. I run plasma guns in most of my squads, especially if I plan on combat squading out into a stand still and shot half and a maneuver for objectives half. Plasma also helps in close against MCs because a las/plas squad has the potential to put 3 unsaved wounds on them where melta heavy squads can only do 2. It is a trade off situation, but the plasma is by no means an inferior weapon. Taken in good balance with the rest of the army, there are plenty of times I would take a plasma rifle over a melta gun.

As for the kill odds, it's 1/6 on the to hit and 2/6 on the armor save, so each shot has roughly a 5% chance of killing your marine. Very acceptable odds, especially when you really need to kill that armored nastiness running amok in your lines.

PanzerLeader wrote:

First of all, it's one or two shots. The more shots you take, the more likely you are to kill yourself with the damn thing. For half the price (HALF), you can get a meltagun which will only give you one shot at 12" but A) you can't kill yourself with it, B) you get a MUCH better antitank capability, and C) if you run a Vulkan army, that beotch is twin linked. Especially since most things get coversaves these days, I'd rather have the meltagun that gives me antitank capability than a plasma weapon.

Of course, the plasma gun also is probably the best shooting support weapon for ranged squads in the Marine arsenal. It can kill one TEQ at 13"-24" and two TEQs at 12" or less. It can move and still get two shots, giving you the ability to manuever around cover to deny saves and still kill more heavy infantry than a melta. It is undeniably weaker against heavy armor, but almost equally effective in close range against AV 10 and AV 11 transports because of the extra shot. I run plasma guns in most of my squads, especially if I plan on combat squading out into a stand still and shot half and a maneuver for objectives half. Plasma also helps in close against MCs because a las/plas squad has the potential to put 3 unsaved wounds on them where melta heavy squads can only do 2. It is a trade off situation, but the plasma is by no means an inferior weapon. Taken in good balance with the rest of the army, there are plenty of times I would take a plasma rifle over a melta gun.

As for the kill odds, it's 1/6 on the to hit and 2/6 on the armor save, so each shot has roughly a 5% chance of killing your marine. Very acceptable odds, especially when you really need to kill that armored nastiness running amok in your lines.

There's no doubt that they have their uses. Killing TEQs, really. In this capacity, the best unit I've seen is a Guard Veteran squad with plasma guns rolling around in a Chimera. Cheap, lots of shots, etc.

My real issue with them is that they drive your versatile unit towards purpose-building, and a poor purpose-built unit at that IMO. In other words, I kit out my tac squads too, but only for versatility, not for individual threats. I'm really sending them after objectives, so what do I want? I want a template weapon for hoarde, I want an antitank weapon for tanks, and I want a heavy weapon that can do both (usually). Mainly because the real threat here is enemy troop units, which typically are rolling around in transports themselves. So I want the melta gun in there. If I run the melta gun on Sarge in combi-form, then I can run a plasma gun in the squad but I have no anti-hoarde. If I run the plasma gun on sarge, I'm risking (small risk but it always seems to work out like this...) killing off a model that I paid a lot of points for (PF + Combi-plas).

I think plasma guns are great if you're building a purpose built unit. The problem is that most things that can take enough plasma weapons are either too expensive (Sternguard, Veterans for Blood Angels, etc.), can't take enough of them to be a purpose-built unit (Tactical squads), or offer better alternatives.

The other issue is that I don't think plasma weapons are really optimal for killing Terminators in Marine armies, considering what else is available for the points. Vindicators, Assault Terminators, etc. All cheaper than a Tac squad kitted out with Plasma weapons and power fist.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
There's no doubt that they have their uses. Killing TEQs, really. In this capacity, the best unit I've seen is a Guard Veteran squad with plasma guns rolling around in a Chimera. Cheap, lots of shots, etc.

My real issue with them is that they drive your versatile unit towards purpose-building, and a poor purpose-built unit at that IMO. In other words, I kit out my tac squads too, but only for versatility, not for individual threats. I'm really sending them after objectives, so what do I want? I want a template weapon for hoarde, I want an antitank weapon for tanks, and I want a heavy weapon that can do both (usually). Mainly because the real threat here is enemy troop units, which typically are rolling around in transports themselves. So I want the melta gun in there. If I run the melta gun on Sarge in combi-form, then I can run a plasma gun in the squad but I have no anti-hoarde. If I run the plasma gun on sarge, I'm risking (small risk but it always seems to work out like this...) killing off a model that I paid a lot of points for (PF + Combi-plas).

I think plasma guns are great if you're building a purpose built unit. The problem is that most things that can take enough plasma weapons are either too expensive (Sternguard, Veterans for Blood Angels, etc.), can't take enough of them to be a purpose-built unit (Tactical squads), or offer better alternatives.

The other issue is that I don't think plasma weapons are really optimal for killing Terminators in Marine armies, considering what else is available for the points. Vindicators, Assault Terminators, etc. All cheaper than a Tac squad kitted out with Plasma weapons and power fist.

I don't really think it goes into purpose building, but how you plan to use the tactical squad. The bulk of my tac squads are either las/plas or missile/plas and the transport is a Razorback. I leave the heavy and the plasma behind to provide cover fire while I move up the other combat squad. I get my anti-horde from my Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices. Its tough to debate how to set up a tactical squad outside the context of an army. But I think the salient point is that if you are going to leave the squad to hold deployment zone objectives, double plasma (i.e. cannon & gun ) is a great ranged option since it can dish out damage to all infantry units and light vehicle units up to 24" out, where the other special choices force you to close the range.